The Philippine Situation: A change in social dynamics is what we need

[wikki]

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@BananaQ - are you even on topic here? hello. why in the world are you talking about gas stations

[BananaQ]

@BananaQ - are you even on topic here? hello. why in the world are you talking about gas stations

Am talking about gas stations because that was what thadzonline was referring to as example... oil executive vs. pump attendants... It could just be any other business... But I don't blame you for not reading the entire thread...

[unsay_ngalan_nimo]

simple social changes:

1. giving importance to education-- HIlter was able to brainwashed young children and made them so loyal to the cause of the third reich. therfore we should have an education that will emphasize values such as nationalism and self-respect..
2. self-reliance
3. eliminate maña habit
4. eliminate nepotism,
5. promotion through merit not personality

[wikki]

@BananaQ - i read the entire thread, but that matter about gas stations is done to begin with, youre going back to an examlpe that now has nothing to do with the topic. the gas station thing is more like an industrial system not a social structure.

@unsay_ngalan_nimo - I agree.

[BananaQ]

@wikki

Pardon me, but my post was only just one paragraph anyway. Besides, that post should be directed to thadzonline. The only point I want to write is to tell thadzonline it is too idealistic to share profits to everyone up to the janitorial level. Maybe I missed part of the discussion, but it's such a pain to read all these posts with so much bad grammar and even worse logic. I'm no longer posting on this thread anyway. You can continue an intellectual discussion with thadzonline here, if that is possible.

[thadzonline]

@thadzonline - if youre just replying for the sake of a debate then stop, youre actually defending all the wrong things in this country that in fact alone is dumb enough. BTW: are you still a student? or an activist cuz you definitely reply like one. and the last paragraph in your last post is actually what people in Japan and China did after WW2 and look at were they stand now, excusses are what people in this country have the most. while its pure unflenching dicipline thats needed. take a good look at countries that were colonized by the spanish and spain itself, how are they now? see the problem!. this country needs a cultural revolution and the entire government purged clean of all officials.

No bai, I'm not replying for the sake of debate. I've had my affair with the political left in past times but I do have principled objections to their ideology. Marxist socialism is not perfect but I refer to it only by the fact that it had described labor-capital relations very well. It has its misgivings, probably resulting from being written in haste. Marx negated the value of peasants as an insignificant sector of society which we all know they are not. Marx advocated for a stateless society making him no different from the advocates of the advancement of consumerist cultures imposed upon indigenous cultures. Marx advocated for the abolition of all private property in direct contradiction of his earlier writing that what socialism does is just change the way capital is allocated(I took allocation to mean some form of ownership still). Socialism in its true spirit does not seek to abolish markets, it only moderates the greed for profit and gives more value to social justice and environmental conservation. To say that socialism/communism has failed because China, North Korea and what other countries have you became a mess is a fallacy of logic, hasty generalization, especially if the form of socialism they practiced is a corrupted adaptation of the true spirit of socialism, that is for the benefit of the people.

I'm very much convinced that the problems we have in this country is compounded by the way we continue to do business, i.e. compulsive pursuit of profit without much consideration of the social and environmental consequences. Certainly if our senate/congress can pass something like the Cheaper Medicines Law, despite all its imperfections, we could do the same for industries that directly affect the quality of life of the masses: Safety nets in the oil industry, telecommunications, mass transportation particularly airlines, etc. Oil deregulation law was passed because of the lobbying of oil executives despite widespread controversial debate on its effects to the common folk. If not for a senator being victimized himself with the widespread deception of our telecoms firms, our lawmakers wouldn't have batted an eyelash or turned a blind ear to the cries of injustice of the common consumer. Many much-needed social reforms cannot be passed because of the lobbying of some interest groups for the satisfaction of the greed of a few.

Which brings us back to the point raised in the first post: Doing business along more socially equitable lines. You see, it's OK if wages are low, so long as the basic commodities are cheap and affordable. Certainly, if we give value to man's ingenuity by giving him gargantuan profits, we could certainly use the same ingenuity for the benefit of the many. Not by creating stock market bubbles largely based on unfounded forecasts of speculative trading(remember the dotcom bubble), not by exaggerating the value of property, not by selling high-risk pre-need plans.

oh and the dumbest concept of people here is that they really want to have kids alot and they breed like freakin dogs and then complain that they cant feed thier 8!!! children or more while earning so little, so whats stupid again

It's not that they want that many. I wouldn't go as far as saying some are accidents because that would be too irresponsible but as what raski has pointed out, government has failed in providing them options and tools that could help them plan.

[raski]

No bai, I'm not replying for the sake of debate. I've had my affair with the political left in past times but I do have principled objections to their ideology. Marxist socialism is not perfect but I refer to it only by the fact that it had described labor-capital relations very well. It has its misgivings, probably resulting from being written in haste. Marx negated the value of peasants as an insignificant sector of society which we all know they are not. Marx advocated for a stateless society making him no different from the advocates of the advancement of consumerist cultures imposed upon indigenous cultures. Marx advocated for the abolition of all private property in direct contradiction of his earlier writing that what socialism does is just change the way capital is allocated(I took allocation to mean some form of ownership still). Socialism in its true spirit does not seek to abolish markets, it only moderates the greed for profit and gives more value to social justice and environmental conservation. To say that socialism/communism has failed because China, North Korea and what other countries have you became a mess is a fallacy of logic, hasty generalization, especially if the form of socialism they practiced is a corrupted adaptation of the true spirit of socialism, that is for the benefit of the people.

I'm very much convinced that the problems we have in this country is compounded by the way we continue to do business, i.e. compulsive pursuit of profit without much consideration of the social and environmental consequences. Certainly if our senate/congress can pass something like the Cheaper Medicines Law, despite all its imperfections, we could do the same for industries that directly affect the quality of life of the masses: Safety nets in the oil industry, telecommunications, mass transportation particularly airlines, etc. Oil deregulation law was passed because of the lobbying of oil executives despite widespread controversial debate on its effects to the common folk. If not for a senator being victimized himself with the widespread deception of our telecoms firms, our lawmakers wouldn't have batted an eyelash or turned a blind ear to the cries of injustice of the common consumer. Many much-needed social reforms cannot be passed because of the lobbying of some interest groups for the satisfaction of the greed of a few.

Which brings us back to the point raised in the first post: Doing business along more socially equitable lines. You see, it's OK if wages are low, so long as the basic commodities are cheap and affordable. Certainly, if we give value to man's ingenuity by giving him gargantuan profits, we could certainly use the same ingenuity for the benefit of the many. Not by creating stock market bubbles largely based on unfounded forecasts of speculative trading(remember the dotcom bubble), not by exaggerating the value of property, not by selling high-risk pre-need plans.



It's not that they want that many. I wouldn't go as far as saying some are accidents because that would be too irresponsible but as what raski has pointed out, government has failed in providing them options and tools that could help them plan.

Gee whiz thadz if that is your definition of Socialism, then I'm all for it. I do not believe in total markets, and I do not think most Capitalists do either. I think what has happened over the decades is that a lot of hardline Communists have moved to the right and a lot of hardline Corporatists have moved to the left. I think we can both agree that a happy middle can be made. I do not doubt your intention is to improve the lives of Filipinos, I do as well. But I do not believe the CEO of a company should earn the same as an accounting clerk or shelf stacker. What I do believe is that everyone from the CEO to the lowest rank and file member should have access to the best services government has to offer for a decent life, that is excellent educational opportunities and skills training, advanced healthcare, excellent infrastructure so the ordinary worker can get from point A to point B without wasting his valuable time as opposed to the crazy traffic we have in Manila and to some extent in Cebu, etc. So clearly there is a huge role for government to intervene in the market to make life better for everyone. I am not even against minimum wages so long as these are tied in some way to productivity, hence the need for government to establish productivity commissions instead of the lame Wage Tripartite Boards.

The problem really is the massive corruption of government and I find it a pity that you do not seem to think this is the most pressing issue facing our country today. Instead, in your first post it seemed to me you were blaming businessmen, who are merely small players compared to the massive juggernaut that is our government. It is government who can make the changes you desire for a better, more even playing field NOT businesses. Government is supposed to have at its task the welfare of its people, not companies.

[thadzonline]

Gee whiz thadz if that is your definition of Socialism, then I'm all for it. I do not believe in total markets, and I do not think most Capitalists do either. I think what has happened over the decades is that a lot of hardline Communists have moved to the right and a lot of hardline Corporatists have moved to the left. I think we can both agree that a happy middle can be made. I do not doubt your intention is to improve the lives of Filipinos, I do as well. But I do not believe the CEO of a company should earn the same as an accounting clerk or shelf stacker. What I do believe is that everyone from the CEO to the lowest rank and file member should have access to the best services government has to offer for a decent life, that is excellent educational opportunities and skills training, advanced healthcare, excellent infrastructure so the ordinary worker can get from point A to point B without wasting his valuable time as opposed to the crazy traffic we have in Manila and to some extent in Cebu, etc. So clearly there is a huge role for government to intervene in the market to make life better for everyone. I am not even against minimum wages so long as these are tied in some way to productivity, hence the need for government to establish productivity commissions instead of the lame Wage Tripartite Boards.

Bai, I think you misinterpret the first post to mean nga dapat pareha ra ug sweldo ang tanan which will never happen. But I think you will agree with me that for the diligent worker who has so little pay and even lives just a decent life, maglisod kay mahal na daan ang commodities, taas pa ang inflation rate. While government has a role here, business, particularly the big corporate powers can definitely pitch in their share here. Daghang multinationals who can influence movements in the market especially in a country like ours. Mas gitagaan attention ang analogy with the oil executive to pump attendant, but I think the more drastic reality is that of the driver who despite working diligently, dako gyud ang effect sa oil prices sa iyang income compared to the oil exec. Ok lang unta if the driver can do without oil, pero dili man.

The problem really is the massive corruption of government and I find it a pity that you do not seem to think this is the most pressing issue facing our country today. Instead, in your first post it seemed to me you were blaming businessmen, who are merely small players compared to the massive juggernaut that is our government. It is government who can make the changes you desire for a better, more even playing field NOT businesses. Government is supposed to have at its task the welfare of its people, not companies.

I agree with you that government has the big role to play. And much of our corruption actually comes in legitimized forms like business lobbyists, in more cruder terms corporate attempts at bribery. Look at how many businesses without the necessary ECC's operate. If in the US, kadtong mga naghimo ug fraud are already behind bars, look at where the movers of Legacy, CAP and other pre-need busts are. You see, if many of the big businesses of our land stop this practice of crony capitalism, dako kaayo ug change mahitabo. Nevermind na lang na ang mga SME's or microentrepreneurs, as I have pointed out in response to bananaQ, lisod lang para sa mga gagmay but not for the big multinationals especially for those who really don't care about anything else but profit.

[mannyamador]

Interesting points from the thread starter.

I hope we will be able to transform politics in this country as well. That is also the aim of the Ang Kapatiran Party (AKP). I like their issues-based, pro-God, pro-life, anti-corruption platform.

[meru_valley09]

kaning nahitabo sa Pinas murag vicious cycle na ni..murag "chiken & egg scenario" ba...

corruption starts when we cheat during exams sa school....

why there is massive corruption in the Philippines maybe one of the reason is that it would take a gigantic funds/money to run for government positions.....mag patay man gani ang uban for a salary of what a few thousand pesos....there should be something in the government positions that are worth dying & spending for....