Hell is NOT a Lake of Fire. There is NO Endless Punishment

[munzter666]

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ey, wasnt the concept of "hell" taken/(borrowed) from pagan belief as well.

[brown_dog]

If the result of sin is death, and Satan is the first to sin (big time pa gyud), why is it that Satan is still alive?

When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, why did they not die instantly? Also, everyone has sinned, why are we all still alive?

Why would there be a place of torment for souls, if these souls were supposed to have died by sin? And if the torment is supposed to be "eternal" does that not mean these souls would never die?

What is death really meant in these instances?

On the other hand, if death is the result of sin, does it mean life is the results of not sinning? We are already alive, how then does a person live by not sinning if he or she is already alive in the first place?

It seems even the worst sinners don't literally die (like Satan), then what life is there to those who are in heaven, that is those who chose not to sin, if they would not have died otherwise anyway?

What is life meant in these instances?

(Just in case, I don't mean either reincarnation or transmigration here.)

Second Death
It is reserved into the day of Judgement.

wow my first to hear this from a christian. Nice job!


My take on this...

1)If God is love how can He let His created beings whom he created in His image suffer in Hell forever(eternal).
2) Hell punishment is temporal,maybe when the designated consequence is finished the soul will go back to HIM. Who knows? right?

1)I don't know why he created us Human Beings. We Chrsitians do not believe in predestination we believe in the choices people make wether to follow God or the other way. You cannot blame God with people who made their own choices.
You cannot take peoples choices lightly even a condemned prisoner can still be saved when he/she choses to repent. There are lots of examples in the Bible like Saul a persecutor of the Early Christians who bacame Paul the Apostle. So it depends on the peoples choices. I do agree there are lots of evil that existed in this world but heres the thing there will be an end to that.
And as what I have strongly stated Hell is not eternal, there are lots of verses that supports this. And I have explained the word "for-ever" in the previous post.

2)After second death sinful people will cease to exist. Unable to enjoy the rewards of Gods people.

The question still stands...According to christian theology God will judge lucifer after the number of believers is completed. What took him so long? Why would He allow millions of soul to suffer in hell when He could have avoided collateral damage by judging lucifer at that very moment. Again i am not judging God here, it is the christian concept that i am trying to refute. Then another confusion in christian theology...According to them(theologians) that God will create a perfect heaven and earth no sin can be committed, again the question is if He can create such earth, why didnt He create it from the very beginning?

I can only conclude that this PORTRAYAL of god by the JEWS is totally a failure of concept. They are putting God in a box. Sadly the sincere christians are buying this poor and disastrous concept from the jews.

It is because God did not create robots. He doesn't forcefully let people worship him instead he gives them choices. If God would have punished lucifer during the Genesis time, then we would have worshipped God as a tyranical God. Forcefully demands worship. God is a god of Love and he understands it. If you were to choose if somebody loves you because you are gonna kill him if not that is not true love. or if Whether someone loves you because it is his or her choice to do so.
What marriage would you choose a shotgun marriage or a true marriage of couples.

And what took God so long?
There is a particular verse regarding this question.
And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; & then shall the End come." (Matthew 24:14)

God will create a perfect heaven and earth no sin can be committed, again the question is if He can create such earth, why didnt He create it from the very beginning?

God did create perfect heaven and earth in the beggining. Genesis 1:1. But it was corrupted once again freewill to sin is not to be discounted. God even warned them not to eat of the fruit for they will surely die.
The new Eden and new heaven. It is possible that there will be no sin since Lucifer will cease to exist.

Again We don't put God in a box.

[brown_dog]

someone once told me that endless punishment was necessary... without which people would be undeterred to do what is wrong...

i really don't agree...

Soft-Selling?

Please understand that regardless of the duration of hellfire, it will be no picnic for the sinner. Although the Bible doesn't specify exactly how long hellfire will burn, in Luke chapter 12 Jesus made it clear that the amount of suffering endured would be in proportion to the hardness of the individual sinner's heart. It would be pure speculation to suppose how long the fires of hell may actually burn, but we can be sure the suffering and anguish endured by the lost would be beyond our ability to describe.

For too long the doctrine of hellfire has been little more than a tool used to cajole sinners into being saved. We are told in Scripture that we love God "because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Certainly people should have a healthy respect and concern about the punishment due the wicked, but only love for God can motivate them to truly surrender their hearts to a God of love.

Understand God's Character
We can know for sure that God is not a despicable, heartless tyrant who will take His very own children and torture them without mercy or relief throughout all eternity. It seems incredible that while society locks child abusers in prison, so many are willing to hold God guilty of the most horrible case of child abuse ever perpetrated!

According to Jesus, hellfire isn't even meant for human beings. It is "prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Yet because many refuse to accept Jesus' great sacrifice for them and choose instead to follow the great enemy of souls, they must share his fate. Satan and all sinners will be destroyed, the earth will be cleansed, and "affliction shall not rise up the second time" (Nahum 1:9). Sin and sinners will be utterly destroyed, forever separated from God, the source of all life.

I'm sorry i'm not able to answer all the questions since its extremely long and the answers as well and I don't have the time to focus on this topic alone it can literally consume my all day.
For more info about this particular topic
Plaease visit: www.helltruth.com

[Mr.Ho_chia]

This is what i said, let me repeat it so you can avoid misleading conclusion, " I have no concept of a god".

Trusting on the logic of the jewish writer who wrote the books of the bible, isnt that putting yourself on their box and because you are in their box would that mean that you are putting god in a box too? to me it is. im pretty sure that when you put yourself in their logic box you are actually limiting your prespective w/in their box.

Fine, thats good that you are presenting your own perspective boxed w/in the logic of those jewish writers.

The fact that man sinned, assuming that this is true, is again exposing the hole of this theology. Why? Where was God at that time? He was there all the time with His-all present power im sure He was able to watched how this Devil tempted Adam n Eve. But He never run and rescued this poor adam. He gave them over to sin? A loving father cant stand seeing his child beaten down by some devil right in front of him.


So this is about the other million? Narrow is the gate that leads to life and wide is the path that leads to destruction. According to this principle that many wll go to hell. So This loving god will risks the eternal soul of this people for the other million? Very jewish indeed.

Yes. Stop n cut inorder to put an end to the disease that will eventually kill a lot of people.


what about the millions that will be saved? In the first place according to this theology, they are saved because it was the WILL of God that they are saved,correct? If thats the case, again, impartiality is evident here. not only that He risks the condition of the eternal soul to hell but also He chooses who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. This theology is portrayng God as some power tripper. See the point?


If god had stop it then there is no question of who gets saved and who gets to hell. Adam could have avoided sin if god at that moment intervened and took the devil out of the garden.


If it is not flawed then this none-believer will not open up his mouth. Because truth after all can not be contested. Like gravity if you think that the concept has some flaw, you can actually test it for yourself by jumping out of the window. The very fact that this none-believer will not jump out of the window is that he sees and understands that this concept has no flaw in it.

Yah, you don't have concept of GOD but you know what that GOD should or should not do, right? I understand it clearly now.
hehe, trusting the Jewish writer you say? this is not about the writers you see, this is about GOD and the work of HIS hand. that's the problem if you so limited knowledge regarding the Judeo-Christian GOD and its believer. you tend to put everyone else in your box and assume that your box is bigger than anyone elses, including GOD.
It is not about the jewish people, this is about GOD, there lies a huge difference and I hope you get to see that. It is hard for anyone that is not something a typical mind can comprehend.

Again this is another typical-humanly reasoning... because HE is an all powerful GOD, Why wasn't HE able to stop satan from tempting adam and eve in that way they will not be able to sin.
GOD trusted adam and eve HE gave them free will, for a JUST GOD to trust people and guard them like prisoners without abling them to exercise such trust. what kind of a GOD would HE be?. He could have created robots instead. Adam and eve though innocent where created able to reason and hence a human rebellion could have been inevitable from the very beginning should GOD followed what tattva see as what could have been a perfect performance of GOD.

a loving father after so much care and teaching will allow his children to fall fand learn from their mistakes, not shield them from the world and produce a totally dependent, lame and none thinking children. I think that is love, teaching your children not just to be men and women but great men and great women that is able to stand when they fall, learn from their mistakes and contribute to society.

yes narrow is the gate that leads to life and wide is the path that lead to destruction. it speaks of how easy it is to get lost but to go the right way is a challenge in itself. it doesn't speak of more people will choose the wide destructive path and less will choose the narrow way to life, isn't it? but granting more will choose to wide destructive way, you think it is JUST to rob the few of their chance to the road to life?

yes HE chooses whom HE chooses. but this is not done in random. this has basis, for GOD sees the heart, a stoned heart that refuse to see GOD forever, will HE choose them? Choose them and shove down their throat HIS glory by manipulating their thought and mind to be GOD lovers instead of GOD-hater? where is Justice there? Surely I wouldn't want my GOD to brain wash me just because HE thinks this will be best for me. I want to decide for myself and be like a man and face the consequences of my decision or reward if it is to be rewarded. see how important free will and choice is?

that is your perspective. Flawed it will be for you that is typical human skepticism. but for us whose truth has been revealed, we see no flaws,we see through it all, that's our truth like your gravity, we too will jump out of a window only if we know where we are falling safe, this concept has no flaws in it too!

that is not what the judeo-christian theology stand for? Are you saying that the doctrine of "total dperavity of man" is not an evangelical doctrine? or maybe your church never touch this one because this is too confusing for an average christian. Too uncomfortable for the happy-sermons-only-encouraging-uplifting-no brainer teachings-just-simplify-kind-of-teachings sort of christian. Sorry but i need to say it. Because this doctrine is taught in most evangelical church.

I think you need to get in tuned first to your theology before accusing someone of having a flawed theology, playig smart will only lead you to more confusion and will create a bad image to christianity. Asking a pastor that is well versed in theology will help and admitting lack of information can be helpful too.

This part i will leave for awhile i refuse to give a comment becasue i dont want to exploit your lack of knowledge on this particlar doctrine. Get in tuned first then get back to me.

so you are telling me now that Genesis was all too wrong? the fall of men their eyes were open to what is right and what is wrong is a huge mistake, is that it tattva?

or your typical mind failed to understand and comprehend the teaching about corruption of men?
you see Tattva you act as if you know it all, you even go to the extent of demeaning and maligning people to exalt whatever little learning you have gained. that is a very typical thing for a typical person to do, indeed little knowledge is dangerous.

let's begin spoonfeeding 101:

The fall of men does not make men incompetent of knowing what is right and what is wrong, dli ta inutil sir that suddenly we are in delirium unable to distinguish what is right from what is wrong, precisely we have good laws to tame the corrupt humanity from doing what is not right and inflict harm to others. because we are able to understand goodness from otherwise

Good deeds, remember that? the Bible speaks of it so often. therefore we know what is good and what is not.

now the corruption of men because of sin, makes men incapable to reach the standard of GOD and HIS Holiness. that is why a burnt offering is to be done in the past, the best lamb, blameless spotless, healthy, and the sins of the nation is put upon this lamb and the shedding of this innocent lamb's blood is the remission of our sins.

now again our corruption(human) makes us unable to reach the standard of GOD, our good works will not be able to reach GOD's standard of Holiness, that is why the ultimate sacrifice was given. the LAMB of GOD that taketh away the sins of the world. for you and me and everyone else that will so decide, unconditional love showcased at its best!

1. so, men dli inutil, we know and spot what is right and what is wrong, able to determine and hence capable of making a decision.
2. but our good works will not be able to reach the standard of GOD's Holiness.
3. We are justified through Christ the ultimate sacrifice.

so asa dha nga theology imong gpahambog nga gasulti inutil ta nga dili ta kamao what is right from wrong, nga man has no capacity to make the right decision?asa dha "Everything in his faculty is totally a mess, there is no way where he can know god, there is no way where he can know his sins and therefore incapable of repenting.'?

so who lacks knowledge now? maypa average mind average mind paka, maypa too-happy sermon-only-encouraging-uplifting-no brainer teachings-just-simplify-kind-of-teachings sort of christian paka.

kauwaw baya. cge lang your limited knowledge is excusable, what can a typical mind comprehend anyway.

[Tattva]

Yah, you don't have concept of GOD but you know what that GOD should or should not do, right? I understand it clearly now.
hehe, trusting the Jewish writer you say? this is not about the writers you see, this is about GOD and the work of HIS hand. that's the problem if you so limited knowledge regarding the Judeo-Christian GOD and its believer. you tend to put everyone else in your box and assume that your box is bigger than anyone elses, including GOD.
It is not about the jewish people, this is about GOD, there lies a huge difference and I hope you get to see that. It is hard for anyone that is not something a typical mind can comprehend.


Having no concept of God means that i have no definite description of what/who God is. I dont want to say that "hey guys, guess what, this is what God is and everything beyond this is a lie." And I am here, to give an argument about "this" version of god, In fact my argument are designed to refute the existence of this God. Therefore I am still qualified even if i dont have a clear description of a god.

Yes obviously your description of god is confined w/in the box that the jews made. Moses was a jew and everything in it are jewish. Of course it is not about the jewish people but about God according to jewish psychology. Well i guess that my box is bigger knowng how the jewish people behave, they have this "we are the ONLY choosen people of god kind of mentality" that leads to a lot of wars for land because God TOLD them that these lands are for them because again they are the only choosen people of GOD. So narrow minded dont you think? I do.

typical mind me? im laughing at this moment, thank you for bringing a smile in my face today. :mrgreen:



Again this is another typical-humanly reasoning... because HE is an all powerful GOD, Why wasn't HE able to stop satan from tempting adam and eve in that way they will not be able to sin.
GOD trusted adam and eve HE gave them free will, for a JUST GOD to trust people and guard them like prisoners without abling them to exercise such trust. what kind of a GOD would HE be?. He could have created robots instead. Adam and eve though innocent where created able to reason and hence a human rebellion could have been inevitable from the very beginning should GOD followed what tattva see as what could have been a perfect performance of GOD.


whats wrong with human reasoning? many have survived crisis becuase of that ablity.

This is not really a question of freewill my friend and this is not a trial for Adam n Eve, tsk tsk, why is it that whenever this topic is raised they always get the blame? poor them.

Focus your argument on God. As i already mentioned this is not a question of freewill but the capacity of a powerful,ever loving, ever helpful God that at the time of NEED His children were left alone. Look what could have happened if HE was right there at that very moment, No souls will go to hell, No sufferngs for humanity. A verse in the bible says that He is ever present at the time of our need, and looking at what happened during the fall, i think this is a betrayal of that verse.

Robots are fine, no souls will suffer in hell and this is not really the issue. But there is one thing or two that i want to point out. What if god was there,The serpent while tempting Eve, God on the other hand was telling Eve right infront that its not really good to eat that fruit. what could have happened? accordng to my point of view basing from real experience usually a potential offender will stop and leave the thing that he is about to commit when he sees an authority figure. Again we dont see that in the STORY of the FALL, w/c makes me think that this portrayal of God is not really base on true experience. True experience will also tell us that when a loving father sees his children being tempted by a criminal the usual instinct would be, The father will rush immediately to his children and rescue them from the criminal,The father will not wait for any decision from the innocent children. Instinct will tell him to save his children from the coming harm. Well thats according to REAL LIFE events and i wonder why is it absent in the story of the fall? My guess is, this story is hmmm...never mind i'll reserve my opinion. That could have been a perfect story.


a loving father after so much care and teaching will allow his children to fall fand learn from their mistakes, not shield them from the world and produce a totally dependent, lame and none thinking children. I think that is love, teaching your children not just to be men and women but great men and great women that is able to stand when they fall, learn from their mistakes and contribute to society.


a loving father will ineed allow his children to commit mistake but this is not the story that we are arguing on. We are talking about "A FALL"(not just ordinary mistake) that will lead millions of children as a consequence of an irresponsible act of not rescuing his chldren, of not cutting the root of a disease that will eventually harm the coming population. Again the one being put in question here is not Adam n Eve.


yes narrow is the gate that leads to life and wide is the path that lead to destruction. it speaks of how easy it is to get lost but to go the right way is a challenge in itself. it doesn't speak of more people will choose the wide destructive path and less will choose the narrow way to life, isn't it? but granting more will choose to wide destructive way, you think it is JUST to rob the few of their chance to the road to life?


This "few", according to theology that they are all handpicked by God. So i think your argument is on the wrong premise to start with. The real question here is, Is it JUST to handpicked whom he will saved and rob the rest, of grace?



yes HE chooses whom HE chooses. but this is not done in random. this has basis, for GOD sees the heart, a stoned heart that refuse to see GOD forever, will HE choose them? Choose them and shove down their throat HIS glory by manipulating their thought and mind to be GOD lovers instead of GOD-hater? where is Justice there? Surely I wouldn't want my GOD to brain wash me just because HE thinks this will be best for me. I want to decide for myself and be like a man and face the consequences of my decision or reward if it is to be rewarded. see how important free will and choice is?

My reply...
My friend this principle is against the Doctrne of "Total depravity of man" w/c states that there is nothing good n the heart of man. Remember the verse that says "For there is no one that seeks God no not even one". God had to intervened for them to be saved. The heart of man is not the basis for this so called salvation but God's act of GRACE. remember man have no part in their salvation so having a soft or a stone heart is not important because God can even turned a stone heart into a heart of flesh,correct? para mo obey niya. According to this Doctrine God is calling all the shots here. So is it just to rob the millions of this grace?




that is your perspective. Flawed it will be for you that is typical human skepticism. but for us whose truth has been revealed, we see no flaws,we see through it all, that's our truth like your gravity, we too will jump out of a window only if we know where we are falling safe, this concept has no flaws in it too!


Skeptcism? Such skepticism has basis you know. you will jump out of a window? to test if gravity is true or not?

[boomer]

So why is it that when we give a blatant example of god's cruelty that we open the escape hatch and claim that god is above our description?

If god cannot be measured or judged by man, then why the heck do we even attempt to describe him as just, loving, powerful, rational, benevolent, perfect, etc.

and worst, some people here claim that they know whats up with god....same people who also say, "god is beyond man's reasoning/comprehension"....so that means you dont know sh!t either, right?

i find it too hypocritical sometimes....

[Hellblazer]

di ba there's a song Lake of Fire by Nirvana? i like that song. but i don't think hell is a lake of fire. it's just a metaphor. hell is already here on earth. look at the misery and the suffering all around you. what sort of hell could be worse than that?

[Tattva]

so you are telling me now that Genesis was all too wrong? the fall of men their eyes were open to what is right and what is wrong is a huge mistake, is that it tattva?

or your typical mind failed to understand and comprehend the teaching about corruption of men?
you see Tattva you act as if you know it all, you even go to the extent of demeaning and maligning people to exalt whatever little learning you have gained. that is a very typical thing for a typical person to do, indeed little knowledge is dangerous.

let's begin spoonfeeding 101:

The fall of men does not make men incompetent of knowing what is right and what is wrong, dli ta inutil sir that suddenly we are in delirium unable to distinguish what is right from what is wrong, precisely we have good laws to tame the corrupt humanity from doing what is not right and inflict harm to others. because we are able to understand goodness from otherwise

Good deeds, remember that? the Bible speaks of it so often. therefore we know what is good and what is not.

now the corruption of men because of sin, makes men incapable to reach the standard of GOD and HIS Holiness. that is why a burnt offering is to be done in the past, the best lamb, blameless spotless, healthy, and the sins of the nation is put upon this lamb and the shedding of this innocent lamb's blood is the remission of our sins.

now again our corruption(human) makes us unable to reach the standard of GOD, our good works will not be able to reach GOD's standard of Holiness, that is why the ultimate sacrifice was given. the LAMB of GOD that taketh away the sins of the world. for you and me and everyone else that will so decide, unconditional love showcased at its best!

1. so, men dli inutil, we know and spot what is right and what is wrong, able to determine and hence capable of making a decision.
2. but our good works will not be able to reach the standard of GOD's Holiness.
3. We are justified through Christ the ultimate sacrifice.

so asa dha nga theology imong gpahambog nga gasulti inutil ta nga dili ta kamao what is right from wrong, nga man has no capacity to make the right decision?asa dha "Everything in his faculty is totally a mess, there is no way where he can know god, there is no way where he can know his sins and therefore incapable of repenting.'?

so who lacks knowledge now? maypa average mind average mind paka, maypa too-happy sermon-only-encouraging-uplifting-no brainer teachings-just-simplify-kind-of-teachings sort of christian paka.

kauwaw baya. cge lang your limited knowledge is excusable, what can a typical mind comprehend anyway.

I have limited knowledge about The Dcotrine of "total depravity of man" ? well, i can only absorb as much as what my theology teacher taught me.

Sir you are givng me a "spoonfeeding" that has no connection with what i asked from you.

I never said that this doctrine includes man as INUTIL to know what is right and wrong. why would i take that stand anyway when i know for sure what this doctrine stands for. tsk tsk tsk!

I really suggest that you stop playing smart here my friend, all the more, it exposes your ignorance. Follow my advise for i have nothing to say at this moment. Familiarze this doctrine first before you give your argument to me. Also review what i said about it, its a scroll away.

[Tattva]

1)I don't know why he created us Human Beings. We Chrsitians do not believe in predestination we believe in the choices people make wether to follow God or the other way. You cannot blame God with people who made their own choices.
You cannot take peoples choices lightly even a condemned prisoner can still be saved when he/she choses to repent. There are lots of examples in the Bible like Saul a persecutor of the Early Christians who bacame Paul the Apostle. So it depends on the peoples choices. I do agree there are lots of evil that existed in this world but heres the thing there will be an end to that.
And as what I have strongly stated Hell is not eternal, there are lots of verses that supports this. And I have explained the word "for-ever" in the previous post.


also dont believe in predestination. As for the rest of the argument, pls direct your attention to all my posts intended for Mr.Ho_chia.

[munzter666]

Why should an omniscient god make people knowing they are going to hell anyway?

an omniscient god knows everything. he certainly knows who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. so why bother create beings who he knows would end up in hell anyway?