Hell is NOT a Lake of Fire. There is NO Endless Punishment

[Tattva]

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hehe, i was referring to letting satan go around before the appointed time. and not an attempt to conceptualize my GOD. I know HIM, HIS nature and Character is revealed in the BIBLE. It is the likes of you who know HIM not that make conclusions and accusations based on your limited knowledge of HIM.

Mr.Ho_chia, I think there is no one single person that can purely fathom the mystery of God. Therefore everyone has a limited knowledge of God not only me but you as well so dont be too proud pointing your finger at me. Confining your views about an infinite being in a bible is i think can be w/o a doubt putting God in a Box. I on the otherhand have no Definite concept of God. What im questioning here is how these jews portray their god.

How can HE be a just GOD if HE has not given time to any sinning soul and that includes your satan. your attempt to rationalized the Christian GOD seems incomplete.

There is no argument there, Sin must be dealt with, but the question is, How can we reconcile the doctrine of unconditional love to eternal punishment? Then another confusion, If He is really just and cant stand sin then why in the first place did He allow satan to linger whne he could have cut the root of sin from that very moment. In other words why did He allow Sin to linger on? He could have put a stop rigth that moment.

then another confusion in this doctrine is if He is really loving why did He pursue to create beings when fro0m His omniscient point of view He can see that milliions and millions of soul will go to hell? He could have stop the creation of ADam n Eve and dealt with the situation of the angels' rebellion.

[Alel]

It would be of no surprise how your views about God would vary at some extent.

God is such an abstract entity.

And I think it is pointless saying one's view of God is right and the other's are wrong.


Alel

[Oakboy]

IMO: Hell is a state of suffering here on earth caused by our own bad action...fire is a physical form and only those who have physical body can feel the pain of heat..therefore Hell is not a physcial lake of fire...it's pointless for a bodyless one to set on fire..

[Mr.Ho_chia]

Mr.Ho_chia, I think there is no one single person that can purely fathom the mystery of God. Therefore everyone has a limited knowledge of God not only me but you as well so dont be too proud pointing your finger at me. Confining your views about an infinite being in a bible is i think can be w/o a doubt putting God in a Box. I on the otherhand have no Definite concept of God. What im questioning here is how these jews portray their god.


There is no argument there, Sin must be dealt with, but the question is, How can we reconcile the doctrine of unconditional love to eternal punishment? Then another confusion, If He is really just and cant stand sin then why in the first place did He allow satan to linger whne he could have cut the root of sin from that very moment. In other words why did He allow Sin to linger on? He could have put a stop rigth that moment.

then another confusion in this doctrine is if He is really loving why did He pursue to create beings when fro0m His omniscient point of view He can see that milliions and millions of soul will go to hell? He could have stop the creation of ADam n Eve and dealt with the situation of the angels' rebellion.

tattva, this is not just about what you think, right? Just because I say I understand my GOD more than you can ever understand yours, it's putting my GOD in a box already? isn't it too myopic view? Does it matter to you on what people portray and understand their GOD? are you scandalized by it if such an understanding do exist between them and their GOD? or you just want to tell them that they are so wrong and you are so right? what is it to you then?

unconditional love is that GOD gave up HIS son to everyone and that whosoever believes in HIM and embrace the salvation that HIS son died for will surely be saved. maski kinsa paka, maski unsa paka, maski asa kapa, no condition it is for you. Maski nakasala paka balik, even if you have mocked HIM, Blasphemous in our actions and totally rebellious against HIM, that unconditional love is still for us, you and me included.

but everything has an appointed time. and when that time come, we will be judge and hence the:

eternal punishment--- A just and Holy GOD cannot love sin, and the sinners will be judge otherwise HE will cease to be a Holy and Just GOD.

marrying the two you say. looks very clear to me, i don't know which part your missing.

Satan time has not come yet. How can HE truly be a just GOD if satan was and is not given the time. If you are satan will you not accuse GOD of unfairness and injustice, to have given unconditional love and chances and time after time after time to your created humans? thought so.

We cannot dictate on what an all knowing GOD do. so that when judgment day comes to everyone, we will have one word to say about God's action and that is "JUST".

lest you forget the creation of humans in the likeness and image of GOD serve a purpose, to commune with HIM and give HIM pleasure in our praise and worship. This is not about us, this is about HIM and HIS glory.

Yes HE see everything including the future, if in case HE do what you think is best and that is to missed human from the creation because of what you said --- that a lot will suffer.

you think that is fair? considering the other part of the saved human race will get to enjoy HIS presence and glory. I will certainly cry foul, and a lot will cry injustice as well. and he see that already. so, if you are a Just GOD will you not indulge the other part of the human race?

so, after having said that, will a HOLY and JUST GOD hid to your call of not creating adam and eve, or do the JUST thing? clearly HIS thoughts are higher than ours and HIS ways are Higher than our ways.

[munzter666]

IMO: Hell is a state of suffering here on earth caused by our own bad action...fire is a physical form and only those who have physical body can feel the pain of heat..therefore Hell is not a physcial lake of fire...it's pointless for a bodyless one to set on fire..

bitaw sad...

pain can be characterized as:
Pain is mediated by specific nerve fibers that carry the pain impulses to the brain where their conscious appreciation may be modified by many factors.

do spirits feel?

i wonder how does "spirit form" exhibit "pain".... eugene's spirit gun?haha

[Sinyalan]

IMO: Hell is a state of suffering here on earth caused by our own bad action...fire is a physical form and only those who have physical body can feel the pain of heat..therefore Hell is not a physcial lake of fire...it's pointless for a bodyless one to set on fire...

I agree with you pre. Since no one came back and tell stories... we can only speculate the existence of hell because what others portrayed a place where you get poked with pitchforks by red men with horns and goatlegs - pure imagination of men or women.

[Tattva]

tattva, this is not just about what you think, right? Just because I say I understand my GOD more than you can ever understand yours, it's putting my GOD in a box already? isn't it too myopic view? Does it matter to you on what people portray and understand their GOD? are you scandalized by it if such an understanding do exist between them and their GOD? or you just want to tell them that they are so wrong and you are so right? what is it to you then?

Would that mean ,that because according to you i lack the capacity to understand your God would ever mean that i am putting God in a box already? see where i am pointing this argument?

Actually i dont mind how people portray their god. what i am doing here is, Im bringing light exposing the hidden holes of this particular theology. Promising eternal punishment when obviously, if ever this theology is true, its no man's fault. An omniscient God and a very powerful one that can solve all your problems could have been enough to save the day at that particular moment. Why wait for millions to be born? He could have cut it and therefore avoiding more damned souls to be punish in hell. Dont you think so? Again let me remind you that this isnt anger pointed towards your God but a question pointing out the flaws of this theology.

unconditional love is that GOD gave up HIS son to everyone and that whosoever believes in HIM and embrace the salvation that HIS son died for will surely be saved. maski kinsa paka, maski unsa paka, maski asa kapa, no condition it is for you. Maski nakasala paka balik, even if you have mocked HIM, Blasphemous in our actions and totally rebellious against HIM, that unconditional love is still for us, you and me included.

but everything has an appointed time. and when that time come, we will be judge and hence the:

eternal punishment--- A just and Holy GOD cannot love sin, and the sinners will be judge otherwise HE will cease to be a Holy and Just GOD.

marrying the two you say. looks very clear to me, i don't know which part your missing.

Yah of course, giving up one's Son for the sake of sinners is an expression of a greatl love. But unconditional love doesnt stop there, thats what ive been told.

The problem is the context on which this theology revolve. According to this theology That man is a depraved being. This state of depravity disqualifies him to make the right choices, everythng he does is not good enough(even the good deeds he makes are but a filthy rags before God). In other words Mr.Ho-chia, man has no capacity to make the right decision. Everything in his faculty is totally a mess, there is no way where he can know god, there is no way where he can know his sins and therefore incapable of repenting. Unless God intervenes and open his eyes so to speak, then thats the only time where he is able to realze his state. And by god's help he nw can make the right decision.

Now going back to the theology of eternal punisment, If this state of depravity is true then why should man be punished? Why cant God open the eyes of all these people para maka kita sila sa ilang kahimtang. Why is Grace limited to some people alone? If grace is limited to some people then why cant God give another chance to this people instead of punishing them in hell forever? I love Jacob but i hate Esau, is that it? Unconditinal love demands equality and i dnt see in this theology the fairness that i am looking for that is befitting of the true sense of the word "UNCONDITIONAL".


Yes a JUST God cant love sin and i said that there is no argument there. The question is why didnt He cut satan out when he committed sin, if He cant stand sin?

Give SATAN a time? what kind of theology is this? Is this even biblical? According to your theology that god is omniscient, Cant he see that Satan is beyond repentance? Angels are under grace, i want you to know that.

We cannot dictate on what an all knowing GOD do. so that when judgment day comes to everyone, we will have one word to say about God's action and that is "JUST".

lest you forget the creation of humans in the likeness and image of GOD serve a purpose, to commune with HIM and give HIM pleasure in our praise and worship. This is not about us, this is about HIM and HIS glory.

Yes HE see everything including the future, if in case HE do what you think is best and that is to missed human from the creation because of what you said --- that a lot will suffer.

you think that is fair? considering the other part of the saved human race will get to enjoy HIS presence and glory. I will certainly cry foul, and a lot will cry injustice as well. and he see that already. so, if you are a Just GOD will you not indulge the other part of the human race?

so, after having said that, will a HOLY and JUST GOD hid to your call of not creating adam and eve, or do the JUST thing? clearly HIS thoughts are higher than ours and HIS ways are Higher than our ways.

Dont get me wrong here, i am not dictating and i dont even care how you want to portray your god. My concern is the theology.

There is another version for this...God because he is HOLY and JUST will punish your wrong deeds but after the time the sentenced expires Because of his Unconditional love, He will give you another chance to be born hangtud makuha nimo ang saktong dalan then by the time nga naa naka sa saktong dalan thats the time nga maka balik naka niya. See, in this version there is no conflict between being HOLY n Just with Unconditional love.

[Mr.Ho_chia]

Would that mean ,that because according to you i lack the capacity to understand your God would ever mean that i am putting God in a box already? see where i am pointing this argument?

Actually i dont mind how people portray their god. what i am doing here is, Im bringing light exposing the hidden holes of this particular theology. Promising eternal punishment when obviously, if ever this theology is true, its no man's fault. An omniscient God and a very powerful one that can solve all your problems could have been enough to save the day at that particular moment. Why wait for millions to be born? He could have cut it and therefore avoiding more damned souls to be punish in hell. Dont you think so? Again let me remind you that this isnt anger pointed towards your God but a question pointing out the flaws of this theology.

nope, what i said was you lack the capacity of knowing your god not my GOD because you said so. (that your god is incomprehensible) remember?
Putting GOD in a box would simply mean that we trust our logic to be the ultimate reason why GOD should have behave the way we wanted HIM to. that's putting GOD in a box, limiting HIM in our perspective to suit us.

again, what i am doing is to give another perspective other than "what you think" --- and if it is no mans fault to you --- the fact that man sinned and keep on sinning is actually mans fault in my perspective, you say HE could stop it and not cause millions to go to eternal punishment, i say JUST GOD that will not rob the other part (millions also) of the human race who follow and obey HIM of their rightful chance to be with HIM and enjoy HIS presence and glory.

Thank you for qualifying that it aint anger that lead you to question the actions of the Judeo-Christian GOD. but I say know HIS nature and character so you may understand HIS actions. Stop and cut so as to save the millions who will be condemned in hell you say? where is justice their? how about the other millions that will be born that will eventually join HIM in HIS kingdom and enjoy the glory of HIS presence? certainly GOD adversary will accuse HIM of robbing the other millions (to be) their rightful place in the universe HE created. and if HE is found unjust by his adversary what do you think will happen, GOD will cease to be GOD because HE is no longer a JUST GOD because HE hid to what a human or humans desire. see the point now tattva?

Having said that, do you think it is a flawed in the Judeo - Christian Theology or a flawed in what a none believer would have thought?

Yah of course, giving up one's Son for the sake of sinners is an expression of a greatl love. But unconditional love doesnt stop there, thats what ive been told.

The problem is the context on which this theology revolve. According to this theology That man is a depraved being. This state of depravity disqualifies him to make the right choices, everythng he does is not good enough(even the good deeds he makes are but a filthy rags before God). In other words Mr.Ho-chia, man has no capacity to make the right decision. Everything in his faculty is totally a mess, there is no way where he can know god, there is no way where he can know his sins and therefore incapable of repenting. Unless God intervenes and open his eyes so to speak, then thats the only time where he is able to realze his state. And by god's help he nw can make the right decision.

Now going back to the theology of eternal punisment, If this state of depravity is true then why should man be punished? Why cant God open the eyes of all these people para maka kita sila sa ilang kahimtang. Why is Grace limited to some people alone? If grace is limited to some people then why cant God give another chance to this people instead of punishing them in hell forever? I love Jacob but i hate Esau, is that it? Unconditinal love demands equality and i dnt see in this theology the fairness that i am looking for that is befitting of the true sense of the word "UNCONDITIONAL".


Yes a JUST God cant love sin and i said that there is no argument there. The question is why didnt He cut satan out when he committed sin, if He cant stand sin?

Give SATAN a time? what kind of theology is this? Is this even biblical? According to your theology that god is omniscient, Cant he see that Satan is beyond repentance? Angels are under grace, i want you to know that.

hehe, that is not what the Judeo - Christian theology stand for. Tattva, if you can remember, by virtue of the fall of men, their eyes were open, they became like GOD knowing what is good and what is evil. That's what the Bible teaches we surely know, we cannot say we don't. we are liers you see, our words are twisted by our hearts desire and so we sin some more trying to justify what could have been a simple repentance.

that's why your theory and understanding of eternal punishment is flawed precisely because of you mis-understanding portions of the Judeo-Christian theology. Grace abound for everyone. it is for all, it is the human heart that betrays the humans. the problem with sin you see, is that if you get to do it more each day, eventually it will become a norm and the human heart will become callus and more tolerant of it but yes it can still distinguish it as sin.

Unconditional love don't stop there, even how many times we did it to too many people you are forgiven if you truly repent, it will embrace you and clean you and clean as clean itself, justified as if without sin, that is unconditional love.

Satan is the great accuser of GOD and HIS people. Subra pa sa attorney, that is why a JUST GOD will deal with HIM in a JUST manner even how cruel and decietful HE can be, because our GOD nature is not limited and not ruled by human emotions adn what human would think as best.

Tattva, if GOD just annihilate satan and if you are satan would you not accuse GOD of unfairness and in justice? the great accuser as he is, cunning and decietful in every way, causing millions to go astray, he will wittingly accuse GOD of injustice, and if he(satan) is proven right, what do you think will happen to the Judeo-Christian GOD? i leave that to your imagination.

remember when Christ was tempted in the wilderness, satan used scriptures to lure the LORD. and you know what it is most logical and reasonable for GOD to have yielded to that temptation because it was scriptural in the first place. but GOD is GOD, His ways are higher than our ways and HIS thoughts higher than ours.

so having said that, you still think that what you are thinking now is what's the most appropriate thing for the Judeo-Christian GOD to have done?........... thought so.

Give SATAN a time? what kind of theology is this? Is this even biblical? According to your theology that god is omniscient, Cant he see that Satan is beyond repentance? Angels are under grace, i want you to know that.
There is another version for this...God because he is HOLY and JUST will punish your wrong deeds but after the time the sentenced expires Because of his Unconditional love, He will give you another chance to be born hangtud makuha nimo ang saktong dalan then by the time nga naa naka sa saktong dalan thats the time nga maka balik naka niya. See, in this version there is no conflict between being HOLY n Just with Unconditional love.

I like your version too, don't get me wrong, i would die for that version.

but it is not the LORD's version. if you can remember, He said: I am the same yesterday, today and forever. I am your GOD that does not change.

so, HE is an unchanging GOD. and HIS words come to pass all the time. Yes unconditional love is given unto men by the LOVING GOD but the same Loving GOD is a JUST and Holy GOD. and therefore, we stick to what is written in scriptures lest we regret.

[Tattva]

nope, what i said was you lack the capacity of knowing your god not my GOD because you said so. (that your god is incomprehensible) remember?
Putting GOD in a box would simply mean that we trust our logic to be the ultimate reason why GOD should have behave the way we wanted HIM to. that's putting GOD in a box, limiting HIM in our perspective to suit us.

again, what i am doing is to give another perspective other than "what you think" --- and if it is no mans fault to you --- the fact that man sinned and keep on sinning is actually mans fault in my perspective, you say HE could stop it and not cause millions to go to eternal punishment, i say JUST GOD that will not rob the other part (millions also) of the human race who follow and obey HIM of their rightful chance to be with HIM and enjoy HIS presence and glory.

Thank you for qualifying that it aint anger that lead you to question the actions of the Judeo-Christian GOD. but I say know HIS nature and character so you may understand HIS actions. Stop and cut so as to save the millions who will be condemned in hell you say? where is justice their? how about the other millions that will be born that will eventually join HIM in HIS kingdom and enjoy the glory of HIS presence? certainly GOD adversary will accuse HIM of robbing the other millions (to be) their rightful place in the universe HE created. and if HE is found unjust by his adversary what do you think will happen, GOD will cease to be GOD because HE is no longer a JUST GOD because HE hid to what a human or humans desire. see the point now tattva?

Having said that, do you think it is a flawed in the Judeo - Christian Theology or a flawed in what a none believer would have thought?

This is what i said, let me repeat it so you can avoid misleading conclusion, " I have no concept of a god".

Trusting on the logic of the jewish writer who wrote the books of the bible, isnt that putting yourself on their box and because you are in their box would that mean that you are putting god in a box too? to me it is. im pretty sure that when you put yourself in their logic box you are actually limiting your prespective w/in their box.

Fine, thats good that you are presenting your own perspective boxed w/in the logic of those jewish writers.

The fact that man sinned, assuming that this is true, is again exposing the hole of this theology. Why? Where was God at that time? He was there all the time with His-all present power im sure He was able to watched how this Devil tempted Adam n Eve. But He never run and rescued this poor adam. He gave them over to sin? A loving father cant stand seeing his child beaten down by some devil right in front of him.


So this is about the other million? Narrow is the gate that leads to life and wide is the path that leads to destruction. According to this principle that many wll go to hell. So This loving god will risks the eternal soul of this people for the other million? Very jewish indeed.

Yes. Stop n cut inorder to put an end to the disease that will eventually kill a lot of people.


what about the millions that will be saved? In the first place according to this theology, they are saved because it was the WILL of God that they are saved,correct? If thats the case, again, impartiality is evident here. not only that He risks the condition of the eternal soul to hell but also He chooses who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. This theology is portrayng God as some power tripper. See the point?


If god had stop it then there is no question of who gets saved and who gets to hell. Adam could have avoided sin if god at that moment intervened and took the devil out of the garden.


If it is not flawed then this none-believer will not open up his mouth. Because truth after all can not be contested. Like gravity if you think that the concept has some flaw, you can actually test it for yourself by jumping out of the window. The very fact that this none-believer will not jump out of the window is that he sees and understands that this concept has no flaw in it.

hehe, that is not what the Judeo - Christian theology stand for. Tattva, if you can remember, by virtue of the fall of men, their eyes were open, they became like GOD knowing what is good and what is evil. That's what the Bible teaches we surely know, we cannot say we don't. we are liers you see, our words are twisted by our hearts desire and so we sin some more trying to justify what could have been a simple repentance.

that's why your theory and understanding of eternal punishment is flawed precisely because of you mis-understanding portions of the Judeo-Christian theology. Grace abound for everyone. it is for all, it is the human heart that betrays the humans. the problem with sin you see, is that if you get to do it more each day, eventually it will become a norm and the human heart will become callus and more tolerant of it but yes it can still distinguish it as sin.

Unconditional love don't stop there, even how many times we did it to too many people you are forgiven if you truly repent, it will embrace you and clean you and clean as clean itself, justified as if without sin, that is unconditional love.

that is not what the judeo-christian theology stand for? Are you saying that the doctrine of "total dperavity of man" is not an evangelical doctrine? or maybe your church never touch this one because this is too confusing for an average christian. Too uncomfortable for the happy-sermons-only-encouraging-uplifting-no brainer teachings-just-simplify-kind-of-teachings sort of christian. Sorry but i need to say it. Because this doctrine is taught in most evangelical church.

I think you need to get in tuned first to your theology before accusing someone of having a flawed theology, playig smart will only lead you to more confusion and will create a bad image to christianity. Asking a pastor that is well versed in theology will help and admitting lack of information can be helpful too.

This part i will leave for awhile i refuse to give a comment becasue i dont want to exploit your lack of knowledge on this particlar doctrine. Get in tuned first then get back to me.

[lestat1116]

kinsa man torment dd2 sa hell? mga demon? kinsa mo torment sa demon?