Why don't gas stations issue receipts?

[riko diko]

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is there a law against "not asking for receipts"?
this is the case now, consumers literally tell the seller not to issue ORs so EVAT may not be charged to the item bought, thus it comes out cheaper.
let say I'm buying a 15K worth car part. now if an OR is issued, the automatic 10+% of Evat is charged so I'll be paying 16.5K+. now to evade paying more i'll be telling the seller not to issue any OR. so, both parties win, I win, the seller wins as well (he now is more competitive than others). now, the seller definitely violated a law, how about me did i violate the book?

[crinkle]

hmmm... never had this kind of problem when my dad or myself is driving... maybe because i barely get to go to a gasoline station but as far as i remember, whenever i'm with friends who drive or with my dad, when we ask for one, we get one. and it's a machine printout. there's even this one time, i just don't recall which gas station it was, wherein the attendants refused to let us leave til we get the receipt. they even mentioned that it was required by law.

[FK]

the seller definitely violated a law, how about me did i violate the book?

accessory to the crime? bitaw it's where responsible citizenry comes in. again corruption. tsk.. tsk.. tsk..

wherein the attendants refused to let us leave til we get the receipt. they even mentioned that it was required by law.

how nice would it be when all establishments are like this.

[giver_bert]

uhhmm... this has been an issue on most establishments, since this is one good means of tax minimization - a legal means of trimming down taxes, although the means, i guess, (not issuing of ORs) may be considered either fraudulent or otherwise.. besides not all people give a damn whether they furnish us with it or not..

however, taxpayers, particularly gasoline stations and other companies, engaging in selling petrolem products, are being levied not based on the sales invoices or ORs they provide, but on information that taxing authorities would get based on inventory levels.. and as well as tax credits or benefits they could enjoy

for instance, the entitlement for transitional input tax are available to taxpayers only after they have filed an inventory list as of june 30, 2005 of such goods orsupplies with the revenue district office where he is registered.. the said list must show the quantity, description, and the amount of such goods or supplies.. furthermore, they have to make a journal entry in their books of accounts which may be subject to verification by the BIR in order todetermine the correctness of the claim..

so regardless if they issue ors or not, accurate sales would still be determined by doing simple arithmetic.. (i think)

[darkwing]

hmmm... never had this kind of problem when my dad or myself is driving... maybe because i barely get to go to a gasoline station but as far as i remember, whenever i'm with friends who drive or with my dad, when we ask for one, we get one. and it's a machine printout. there's even this one time, i just don't recall which gas station it was, wherein the attendants refused to let us leave til we get the receipt. they even mentioned that it was required by law.

murag mga Shell station na sila

[darkwing]

is there a law against "not asking for receipts"?
this is the case now, consumers literally tell the seller not to issue ORs so EVAT may not be charged to the item bought, thus it comes out cheaper.
let say I'm buying a 15K worth car part. now if an OR is issued, the automatic 10+% of Evat is charged so I'll be paying 16.5K+. now to evade paying more i'll be telling the seller not to issue any OR. so, both parties win, I win, the seller wins as well (he now is more competitive than others). now, the seller definitely violated a law, how about me did i violate the book?

accessory to the crime gyud na lol actually lose-lose na siya in the long run, dili ka makalikay sa evat sa ubang goods like gas etc...

[riko diko]

so regardless if they issue ors or not, accurate sales would still be determined by doing simple arithmetic.. (i think)

bai, issuing ORs checks and balances their transactions. they can easily manipulate their inventory etc... that's all in paper. sila sila ra magmaneho ana. not like if ORs are the basis for the taxes, you can't manipulate the consumers. if all consumers demand ORs, then mas accurate and reliable pa nga basis ang OR as to measuring the inflow of money.

kinsa man kahibaw sa pamama-agi sa tax? let's say ni issue kog OR worth P100, how much goes to evat? do we need to deduct the previous vat? what's the difference between vat and evat? pila %age ani nila respectively?

[giver_bert]

so regardless if they issue ors or not, accurate sales would still be determined by doing simple arithmetic.. (i think)

bai, issuing ORs checks and balances their transactions. they can easily manipulate their inventory etc... that's all in paper. sila sila ra magmaneho ana. not like if ORs are the basis for the taxes, you can't manipulate the consumers. if all consumers demand ORs, then mas accurate and reliable pa nga basis ang OR as to measuring the inflow of money.

indeed it's one way of making sure accurate and correct declaration of sales, but you see even tangible documents such as ORs could be manipulated.. this has been a common practice to some establishment, for instance maintaining of ORs, but with an indication that they are either "Zero Rate" or "VAT exempt", such ORs would be considered for VAT computation purposes, but with "0%" or would not be considered for calculation of VAT Payable.. most consumers especially those who are not so keen and knowledgeable with Taxing technicalities wouldn't be that very keen to minute details..

bro, contrary to what you believed, inventory levels, especially in establishments engaging in petroleum products have strict inventory controls.. and if i'm not mistaken evenÂ* dispensers (dunno what they call it) already have built in monitoring of inv'ty levels for 'safety stock' purposes.. recurring inventory counts are also conducted by internal audit and as well as third party auditing firms for accurate declaration of inventories.. again since this issue of non-issuance of ORs has been outstanding since then, taxing authorities, on top of company internal controls, are giving establishments with file templates (dunno, but it looks like in spreadsheet form but it automatically extracts information from taxpayers) where they are required to submit (disk form) in addition to common requirements.. (this i think would then be applied to all entities)

paper trails (invoices) are more likely easy to be manipulated, than what you can see and count physically ( goods on stock).. as what you said 'papel ra na sila'

kinsa man kahibaw sa pamama-agi sa tax?Â* do we need to deduct the previous vat?

BIR pepz or Lawyers presumably are well-versed with taxation.. BIR regional offices are currently conducting seminars on the amended value-added tax.

let's say ni issue kog OR worth P100, how much goes to evat?

VAT rates are still at 10% or 0% (Zero Rated), however, with the Republic Act No. 9337 superseding revenue regulation no. 14-2005 (dated june 22, 2005) VAT rates may go up to '12%' by January 1, 2006 on certain conditions.. that is either extremities - substantial increase in GNP or increase in National Debt.. i forgot threshold figures..

although, it doesn't mean that government share or income would be equal to VAT rates, since VAT registered entities are entitled to deductible 'input tax' from purchases or cost of goods they sell or services rendered.. normally, VAT entities are pricing their goods inclusive of tax, so therefore for a transaction that's worth P100, it is presumed that such amount already includes VAT.. amount of which can be determined by Dividing Gross Sales or Price by 11.. but if worse comes to worse and VAT would be increased to '12' by next year, such can be determined by multiplying it by 1.20 divided by 11.20.

companies, starting november 1, are required to segregate the vat component/amount on their ORs.. so far, i only noticed a particular gasoline station (Shell) practicing this already..

what's the difference between vat and evat? pila %age ani nila respectively?

same s**t bro! differences, if i'm not mistaken are as to the scope of the Taxes, transactions exempted,Â* those that are zero rated sales/revenues etc.. they are even renaming it to R-VAT just to give people and impression that it's an amended one hehe..

[riko diko]

bai, givert i believe that if consumers were knowledgeable how this tax thing goes, establishments will think twice before doing something fishy with their documents.

anyway, can you clarify the VAT and EVAT again? so, in an OR, VAT is deducted then EVAT is deducted as well? or we just deduct one of them and that's it? thanks bai. libog man gud ko ani bai.

[Minuano27]

nice discussion...

i definitely agree that gas stations, etc. should issue receipts even if the consumer does not demand it.

however, there is another side of the coin, and perhaps this will let us see things in a different light.

i've been around since the mid-80s, and in my experience, the reality is far from the ideal. i've had clients complaining that they were audited by the BIR but their books weren't even looked at by corrupt BIR people. simply put, they will say you owe the Government X amount, but we can reduce this to Y amount if you give us Z% of the difference. so in the end, the owner of the business will rationalize that since his records don't make a difference, then let's just go through the motion of issuing reciepts only if the customer asks for it.

now, the next question would probably be: shouldn't the store owner refuse? of course, he can, and he can fight back either through entrapping the corrupt employee(s) with the help of the NBI or the police (as is reported in the news once in a while); or he can contest the assessment that the corrupt BIR people will make on his business.

unfortunately, most business owners, don't want to go through the time and effort, and spend, to defend what is right. and it's because earning a living is difficult enough already, that making it more complicated by having to attend to court case(s) will not be worth it. that is the unfortunate reality, so in effect, we are all caught in a vicious cycle.

this, of course, is not to say that everyone in the BIR is corrupt. i've personally dealt with, and personally know, quite a few honest people there. but as in anything else, there will always be bad apples in any organization, particularly the government. what i'm saying, however, is that there's a bigger picture to this problem, and the government itself - through the BIR - is part of that problem through the corruption practiced by some bad apples.

just food for thought...