Questions/Doubts/Wrong Practices to the Catholic Church--Analysis and Opinion

[neigyl_noval]

---

Yes talking to a picture may not be considered idolatry. Pero yung pag-pu-prosisyon?


So what your'e saying is that those who pray and kneel down without any images in front looks like a fool?

Ang utos ng Dios sambahin siya sa ESPIRITU at KATOTOHANAN eh, ibig sabihin, wlang pictures o rebulto.

Thanks for the questions d.a.m.a.s.o. You have 3 comments/questions here. I will restate it for the sake of everyone.

(1) Bakit ang mga Katoliko ay may Procession sa isang/maraming Santo?
(2) Are those people who pray and kneel down without any images in front looks like a fool?
(3) Ang utos ng Dios sambahin siya sa ESPIRITU at KATOTOHANAN eh, ibig sabihin, wlang pictures o rebulto.

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(1) Here is what Catholic leaders say about Processions: Processions - Catholic Encyclopedia - Catholic Online

(2) No and never. My statement of "...rather than a Catholic kneeling there talking to himself like a fool." is a Catholic tendency to pray 'unheartily', that is saying something similar to a memorized "script" or some sort, especially when there are no holy images in front of them. Almost all religion can pray to God heartily even without pictures or even with eyes closed. Prayer is a communication with God.

(3) It is clear in the bible that there are many ways to worship God like dancing, singing, etc, that is, one can create an art of worshipping God.

The bible is also clear that we should not worship anything and anyone except God. Hence, there is nothing wrong with making pictures about God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit, as long as these images is only an instrument to make the place seems like a holy ambiance to talk to God more heartily. That is, as long as one doesn't worship the image.

[neigyl_noval]

Pero ngano wala man sila badlonga na dili diay na sakto?

Kay wala man ta kabaw kung unsa jud ilang intention nganu ila to gibuhat. Either deeply needed of help; or kato na noon ilang gisimba, which should not be. Also, daghan baya kaayong taw especially kung hapit na ang fiesta.

I recommend that you use the "quote" functionality of this forum aron dili libog kung kinsa imung gi-replyan. Thanks.

[d.a.m.a.s.o.]

Thanks for the questions d.a.m.a.s.o. You have 3 comments/questions here. I will restate it for the sake of everyone.

(1) Bakit ang mga Katoliko ay may Procession sa isang/maraming Santo?
(2) Are those people who pray and kneel down without any images in front looks like a fool?
(3) Ang utos ng Dios sambahin siya sa ESPIRITU at KATOTOHANAN eh, ibig sabihin, wlang pictures o rebulto.

------------------------------------------------

(1) Here is what Catholic leaders say about Processions: Processions - Catholic Encyclopedia - Catholic Online

(2) No and never. My statement of "...rather than a Catholic kneeling there talking to himself like a fool." is a Catholic tendency to pray 'unheartily', that is saying something similar to a memorized "script" or some sort, especially when there are no holy images in front of them. Almost all religion can pray to God heartily even without pictures or even with eyes closed. Prayer is a communication with God.

(3) It is clear in the bible that there are many ways to worship God like dancing, singing, etc, that is, one can create an art of worshipping God.

The bible is also clear that we should not worship anything and anyone except God. Hence, there is nothing wrong with making pictures about God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit, as long as these images is only an instrument to make the place seems like a holy ambiance to talk to God more heartily. That is, as long as one doesn't worship the image.

(3) It is clear in the bible that there are many ways to worship God like dancing, singing, etc, that is, one can create an art of worshipping God.

I have no problem with singing, dancing, but give me a verse na gumamit ang mga Christians ng pictures or rebulto to pray.

How can you make pictures of God if he is a spirit? Are you kidding me?
Spirits cannot be seen.

At para sabihin mong "There's nothing wrong with making pictures about God, Jesus and Holy spirit", is against God.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Hindi ba serving na yung ginagawa niyo? Pinupunasan? Processions? Binibihisan? Niluluhuran?

[neigyl_noval]

I have no problem with singing, dancing, but give me a verse na gumamit ang mga Christians ng pictures or rebulto to pray.

How can you make pictures of God if he is a spirit? Are you kidding me?
Spirits cannot be seen.

At para sabihin mong "There's nothing wrong with making pictures about God, Jesus and Holy spirit", is against God.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Hindi ba serving na yung ginagawa niyo? Pinupunasan? Processions? Binibihisan? Niluluhuran?

Thank you for the immediate reply. Your arguments was one of the biggest debate done by Catholics and non-Catholics decades ago. However, we have what we believe in--that is, different Christian religion have different interpretation of the Bible.

------------------ (1) -------------------------
The two verses below are not contradictory to each other:

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.

Exodus 25:18
Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle.


20:4 explains making graven thing in heaven above is prohibited. This includes images of angels, of Jesus, and of God. In 25:18, God commanded the making of 2 cherubims. Cherubims are image of a winged angelic being. A childish argument would be "since Exo. 25 happens after Exo. 20, Exo 25 should be done" . There has to be correlations and similarities of the two verses. The similarity is not to worship idols, or anything or anyone except God.

The Lord also commanded to make an image of a serpent, which is an earth beneath being (Exo. 20:4):

Numbers 21:8 And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.

Catholics use statues of the saints who have died. Non-Catholics also use grave stones for their dead especially in other Asian countries. They are visited and they are sometimes communicated. So there is no difference between the two in terms of the act of communicating and visiting to them.

The Catholic images are not idols. In the grave stone in cemetery example, people remembered him and people also now who he is. There is no difference between Catholic statues and the grave stones non-Catholic visited and talked to. Thus, they are not idols because they are not worshipped.


------------------ (2) -------------------------

So then if God really forbids the use of images, then religious videos, photographs, paintings, and other similar things should be banned as well. In the case of the bronze serpent (Num 21:, God does not forbid the ritual use of religious images.


------------------ (3) -------------------------

Please take a look at this Bible verses in terms of its whole event:

1 Kings 6:23-35
1 Kings 7:25
1 Kings 7:36

The above verses may illustrate images created. The confusion would be whether these images are idols or not.

[d.a.m.a.s.o.]

Thank you for the immediate reply. Your arguments was one of the biggest debate done by Catholics and non-Catholics decades ago. However, we have what we believe in--that is, different Christian religion have different interpretation of the Bible.

------------------ (1) -------------------------
The two verses below are not contradictory to each other:

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.

Exodus 25:18
Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle.


20:4 explains making graven thing in heaven above is prohibited. This includes images of angels, of Jesus, and of God. In 25:18, God commanded the making of 2 cherubims. Cherubims are image of a winged angelic being. A childish argument would be "since Exo. 25 happens after Exo. 20, Exo 25 should be done" . There has to be correlations and similarities of the two verses. The similarity is not to worship idols, or anything or anyone except God.

The Lord also commanded to make an image of a serpent, which is an earth beneath being (Exo. 20:4):


Numbers 21:8 And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.

Catholics use statues of the saints who have died. Non-Catholics also use grave stones for their dead especially in other Asian countries. They are visited and they are sometimes communicated. So there is no difference between the two in terms of the act of communicating and visiting to them.

The Catholic images are not idols. In the grave stone in cemetery example, people remembered him and people also now who he is. There is no difference between Catholic statues and the grave stones non-Catholic visited and talked to. Thus, they are not idols because they are not worshipped.


------------------ (2) -------------------------

So then if God really forbids the use of images, then religious videos, photographs, paintings, and other similar things should be banned as well. In the case of the bronze serpent (Num 21:, God does not forbid the ritual use of religious images.


------------------ (3) -------------------------

Please take a look at this Bible verses in terms of its whole event:

1 Kings 6:23-35
1 Kings 7:25
1 Kings 7:36

The above verses may illustrate images created. The confusion would be whether these images are idols or not.

Ang Dios naman ang nag-utos na gumawa nun eh. Yun bang mga imahen si Maria at iba pang mga Santo, iniutos din ba ng Dios gawin?

At sa Exodus 20:4, malinaw naman na ang kaya ipinagbabawal ay dahil nga may mga sumasamba at lumuluhod.

And you said,

The Catholic images are not idols.

Can you define "Idols" biblically?

[nijazared]

Catholics do not worship Saints. Catholics do not worship images/statues because we are like idiot if we do it. Images/Statues are instrument that could relate us to other people, like the pictures of your family, but doesn't mean we worship them. The reason for the asking of help to the Saints/Mary are here: https://www.istorya.net/forums/9966285-post201.html

If you do not worship images or statues why do you kiss the hands of the idols and why do you parade them all over the streets during processions? If you do not worship the Pope then why do you kiss him and say your prayers to him? Why do you kneel down in front of a statue and pray? Kneeling down is worshipping. So what is the correct term to use when devotees kiss, pray, kneel down and sing praises to a statue? If you say you are not worshipping and praying to the images then why do your repetitive prayers repeat the appointed saints and Mary's name while praising them? Is it not only God whom we should worship?
--
My opinion when it comes to repetitive prayers:
Prayer is a gift given by God so his people could communicate directly to him. The prayers that are in the Bible serve as an example of how we should pray. That is how I understand it. A repetitive prayer, no matter how much heart you put into it, can never be your own prayer since those words are not yours.

[redhorse1L]

I think this thread is becoming more of a "BIBLE" debate.
And I don't like it..

Basin naay ma-create nasad nga bag-ong religious sect ani tungod diri.

[redhorse1L]

Ok, but we are not talking about praises. We are talking about repetitive PRAYING. Iba ang panalangin sa papuri.

Ok, Good! at least you accept that we can praise over and over again without ceasing.

Therefore, I can say like this: (praising)
Our Father in heaven, Holy be Your name!
You kingdom come, Your will be done!
On earth as it is in Heaven! (10x)

bakit kailangan pang ulitin? eh alam na naman ng Dios bago mo pa sabihin?

here's the answer, from the bible.

kaya naman pala eh, sa rebulto kasi nananalangin, kaya hindi talaga naririnig kaya inuulit.

Again, why did Jesus repeated His prayers?
And why did he even prayed? When He knew His Father already knows what He is going to ask?

Ngano man diay? If you pray, once ra?
If someone is sick, ka-usa ra ka mangadye? kay kibaw na ang Ginoo ana?
If you are feeling down, or having a big problem, ka-usa ra ka mangadye?

[SioDenz]

Thanks for the immediate reply.

The repetition of prayers is a form of "begging" to the Lord. Imagine a 4-year old son asking his father to buy him an ice cream, "Papa, bili ka nang ice cream". Inu-ulit2x ito ng maraming beses. Iiyak pa nga yung bata. Luluhud pa bastat mabilhan lang ng ice cream. Similarly, since Christians are the children of God, Catholics do the same. Inuulit yung panalangin as a form of "begging" to the Lord.

Again, however, not all Catholics do the right thing. Some Catholics tend to pray repetitive, but standardized, prayers without sense at all.

Thats why Jesus did not teach that because naay possibility nga naay Conflict, naay uban di kasabot. Basta ang Doctrina naay chance nga magka conflict di na tinuod nga Doktrina. God is perfect and all knowing so iyang mga teachings perfect ug way chance nga magka conflict.

[SioDenz]

Catholics do not worship Saints. Catholics do not worship images/statues because we are like idiot if we do it. Images/Statues are instrument that could relate us to other people, like the pictures of your family, but doesn't mean we worship them. The reason for the asking of help to the Saints/Mary are here: https://www.istorya.net/forums/9966285-post201.html

Jesus did not said that we should Pray to Mama Mary.