NDF: a terrorist group or not?

[bcasabee]

---

Hahahahaha......and r u saying that the NDF can solve all these problems while the present system can't............that's funny..............can u give examples such as North Korea, Cuba and others of how they solve those problems mentioned, if ever they had solved even 1? Ok, tagaan nato ug chance......how about China nga dato na karon.......how do you think they uplift their economy.........May I know how did China distribute their lands to their billion population equally?

And one more thing......do you think all of the people in the Philippines want to be given land for them to farm? I am tired of hearing land reform propaganda from the communist group.......beat it off.........kay po-ol na kaayo.

Accept it, communists are looooooosers............they can't accept that some people are rich while they are poor as a rat............and they are so jealous about it that they would want to confiscate other people's properties to distribute to those people who doesn't even know how to take good care of it, and they say its for equality's sake..............but I say its an advance symptom of crab mentality.................

Ur questioning the security of the media, may I know what is your opinion about China forcing google to filter their search engines? Does the communist allow anti-communist group to rally in the streets just like what Bayan Muna and friends are doing? Dili kaha i-massacre sila just like sa nahitabo sa China years ago..............

And ur asking about job security? Many people I know who are not even doing good in their college years are now doing good with their lives.........why? because they are not looooosers....they don't complain, they work hard, and doesn't blame others and God why they were given below average brains making them uncompetitive in their academic lives........but now........who says only the intelligent can get good lives and financial security? Just a pathetic communist propaganda.......

To the looosers..........goodluck to your mountainous adventures............and don't forget to bring baigon katol with you everynight you want to have a good night sleep.......

*are the guarantees of human rights, protection against summary executions and forced disappearances real and effective?
*are human rights violations increasing or decreasing?
*is the media, the gauge of freedom, safe?
*is there a real and effective land reform?
*is the wealth of this country being redistributed evenly or is it accumulating into the elite few (which happens to coincide with who are at power)?
*do we have job security? do we approach full employment?
*do we have a growing or a shrinking middle class?

some questions that you perhaps conveniently forgot to answer?

[gareb]

tolstoi:

first off..the one who signed the CAHRIHL agreement was a dumb government [the Estrada administration], but somehow on the interim , Estrada had proven that he was not totally dumb at all when he launched all-out war against the Communist and Moro Islamic rebels in 1999...

unbelievably and ridiculously misinformed.

all administrations, from the Aquino, the Ramos, the Estrada and the Macapagal -Arroyo administrations ALL have engaged in peace talks with both the CPP-NPA-NDF and the MILF.

the Estrada administration waged an all-out war with the MILF only, and at the same time engaed in peace talks with the CPP-NPA-NDF, resulting to the CARHIHL document.

now the Arroyo administation is now engaged in a peace process with the MILF. would you now call this a dumb move? you alluded that the peace talks with the CPP-NPA-NDF during the Estrada administration was 'dumb', does that make all peace process dumb to you tolstoi?

now we see who is for peace and who is for war. for someone who is as blood-thirsty as you are who seemed to endorse an all-out war with the MILF as 'not totally dumb' move by a 'dumb goverment'...

it is now clear that you, after all your pretentions, are not for peace after all.

and from that point on, any recognition for these two militant groups as separate/independent government was simply trashed

do tell us that this 'recognition' has been withrawn by telling us if the CARHIHL document, which informally recognizes the capcaity and capability of the NDF together with the GRP to implement it, has been rendered null and void. see if you can actually prove what you are saying by presenting us official documents from the GRP stating that past agreements between the GRP and the NDF under the peace process are rendered null and void.

only then should you begin claiming that indeed the moves of the 'dumb' Estrada government, with regards to the peace process were of no value whatsoever.

how i wish that we could even reach a rational conclusion here..you are always begging me to recognize NDF as government, but you yourself also fails to recognize the GRP as the sole government being FOUNDED by the Filipino citizenry..

oh so i am begging now eh? wow. since when?

but i do recognize that the GRP is a government by itself same with the NDF. both are founded and run by Filipinos. both are in conflict with each other in ideological grounds. to solve this conflict, both are engaged in military warfare with each other as we speak, and through the peace process that has been suspended because of this baseless terrorist tagging.

while i recognize both as governments, it is you who fail to meet the status quo which recognizes the existence of both. it is you who tries to discredit the achievements of the peace process and instead pines for a bloody resolution for this conflict.

'founded' in a sense that by people's RIGHT to SUFFRAGE, a political government is formed...NDF on the other hand is an INTERNATIONAL organization with local arm headed by SISON [or whoever]; a clear fact that the filipino citizenry has no direct hand on its policies and structure, hence NO RIGHT to assert its existence as another government in the Phil.

your idea of democracy as equal solely to 'suffrage' is erroneous, as erroneous as your GRP propaganda regurgitations of the NDF as having 'no elections' inside its own body.

i beleive that you are the one who neglect to construe these facts i pointed, mainly because you are blinded by your communistic ideology, in addition to your indirect reverence to CPP/NDF.

how quaint. and because you cannot know for certain that due process is present or absent during court proceedings in the mountains because you have not witnessed one, you direct your attacks on me. argumentum ad hominem, ever heard?

no need to offer that challenge because i witnessed the so-called people's court 'mock-up' proceeding in a TV documentary.

and he does not take the challenge because he believes everything that he sees on TV. wow.

again and again..the GRP has the genuine RIGHT to collect taxes from any establishment within its legal jurisdiction simply because it is represented and being formed by the whole populace of the PHIL., and also this certain Chinese establishment was fully aware that they should pay taxes only to GRP and not to any revolutionary group.

but of course the GRP has the right to collect taxes. it is after all, a government, isn't it?

This establishment was fully aware that they were being EXTORTED to pay the so-called rev tax..logic dictates that when you are being 'forced' to give an amount to a STRANGER, you are simply being ROBBED!

forced. funny. as if your dis/agreement to paying taxes dictates whether or not you should. if what you want to say is true, then if you do not want to pay the GRP taxes because you say you are being 'forced' to do so, and in the process being 'robbed' then it's ok not to pay taxes?

set your arguments straight.

like i said, whoever will seat into office [either crippled governor, highskol/elementary drop-out, trapo, etc.etc] is WITHIN the CONSENT of the WHOLE POPULACE, since they were the one who voted them..that is the true essence of democracy here,

you cannot be any more mistaken.

your concept of democracy relies only on 'election' which is, as we all know every election period, is WRONG.

democracy sir, is not just about electing people to power, but also holding those people accountable. democracy is also about those people elected to actually represent and serve the interest of the people; something that is missing in this socio-political scenario that we have.

what you offer as 'voters education' is a palliative to a deeper socio-economic problem. what you fail to see is that it is only the representatives of the ruling class that can only run and actually win; the very same socio-economic class where we see the corrupt politicians, the trapos, etc that we see as serving their own interests. they propagate themselves by nepotism and enacting laws that serve themselves and their business interests.

true democracy enables us to remove these people entirely from the political scene. with the current socio-cpolitical culture, can we?

there goes your democracy.

*are the CPP/NDF leaders, if given a chance to govern, have the sure-fire guarrantee to implement laws that are beneficial to the genuine interest of the majority??

*does the CPP/NDF promotes the RIGHT to SUFFRAGE??

*will the CPP/NDF be transparent of its government and openly promotes the RIGHT to INFORMATION for its constituents??..will there be such a thing as FREE PRESS??..and aw can i post freely in istorya.net in a manner similar to this?

two words:

ask them

actually i was mentioning these to you ever since from the start of this thread, but it seems you are reluctant to answer such query maybe because by answering it will lead to your disadvantage with regards on your stance in general...but i'm hoping though that you can answer it now

why sir, am i a member of the NDF that i should answer your queries?

i'll let you in on a little secret. i do not care if the NDF wins or loses. what i care about is that this conflict be resolved peacefully through the institution of the direly needed socio-economic reforms that this country needs. if the GRP can provide these reforms and therefore uplifting the living standards of the people, then the armed revolution will lose its support.if on the other hand, it will continue to serve the interest of the ruling clique that is on top of it and not heed the call from below, then we can expect violence and chaos.

exterminate the NPA now, and something else will sprout from where it fell. the roots of this insurgency is poverty and social inequality. learn from the lessons of history; Bonifacio's revolution, the Huk rebellion, and now this. we are doomed to repeat a lesson if we fail to learn from it.

call to the WHOLE Filipino citizenry since they were the ones who opted how to be represented by voting such kind of people in the congress....what you should be wasting your energy at is on how to overhaul the electoral process in such passion that the Filipino electorate will know how to choose the ideal politicians who can trustfully represent them in the government...'instead' of wasting energy on replacing the whole system with NO CLEAR PROOF as to its effectiveness..gets mo bai?

you flawed analysis of the problem leads you to conclude that it can only be done through 'educating the Filipino electorate' in chosing ideal politicians.

no clear proof. why sir,has 'educating the Filipino electorate' proven itself effective so far?

isn't it a valid analysis that the political structure of this country is dominated by the socio-economic elite which does not represent the interest of the majority and does not respect the constitution?

or is it your wish that this political elite continue to rule and to silence every form of dissent, bloody if necessary (as you seem to want)? is this your brand of democracy now?

[tolstoi]

GAREB:

all administrations, from the Aquino, the Ramos, the Estrada and the Macapagal -Arroyo administrations ALL have engaged in peace talks with both the CPP-NPA-NDF and the MILF.

the Estrada administration waged an all-out war with the MILF only, and at the same time engaed in peace talks with the CPP-NPA-NDF, resulting to the CARHIHL document.

read here..

This was how the Bagong Alyansang Makabayan today described the raging military operations in Mindanao against revolutionary organizations, MILF and the CPP-NPA-NDF. It lambasted the government’s massive troop deployment since last year and the ongoing military assaults as signs of a "war of attrition" by the Estrada government to physically eliminate revolutionary organizations in the so-called Land of Promise

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill.../psmar2300.htm

now the Arroyo administation is now engaged in a peace process with the MILF. would you now call this a dumb move? you alluded that the peace talks with the CPP-NPA-NDF during the Estrada administration was 'dumb', does that make all peace process dumb to you tolstoi?

now we see who is for peace and who is for war. for someone who is as blood-thirsty as you are who seemed to endorse an all-out war with the MILF as 'not totally dumb' move by a 'dumb goverment'...

it is now clear that you, after all your pretentions, are not for peace after all.

and here...

GRP-NDF Peace Process: Where To?
Patricio P. Diaz / MindaNews / 09 August 2002

GENERAL SANTOS CITY -- After some confidence-building, then President Fidel V. Ramos was able to bring the National Democratic Front, the umbrella of the different communist rebel organizations including the Communist Party of the Philippines, to the negotiation table.

As agreed, the comprehensive peace agreement would be negotiated part by part: human rights and international humanitarian law, social justice, economic reforms, political reforms, and disposition of forces.

Before Ramos' exit from Malacañang, only the first was agreed. However, it was signed by the Estrada government. When President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo suspended the talks in June last year, the panels were working on the final drafts of the agreements on political, economic and constitutional reforms.

http://www.mindanews.com/2002/08/2nd/vws09diaz.html

so who's not setting the facts straight here?

do tell us that this 'recognition' has been withrawn by telling us if the CARHIHL document, which informally recognizes the capcaity and capability of the NDF together with the GRP to implement it, has been rendered null and void. see if you can actually prove what you are saying by presenting us official documents from the GRP stating that past agreements between the GRP and the NDF under the peace process are rendered null and void.

only then should you begin claiming that indeed the moves of the 'dumb' Estrada government, with regards to the peace process were of no value whatsoever.

i am not saying that the cahrihl was suspended during Estrada's time, the cahrihl and other NDF's tunnel of negotiations to the GRP panel were indifintely suspended just after the TERRORIST tagging..Estrada did include the NPA guerrilas in its all-out-war against the MILF basing from the links i pointed out above.

now the Arroyo administation is now engaged in a peace process with the MILF. would you now call this a dumb move? you alluded that the peace talks with the CPP-NPA-NDF during the Estrada administration was 'dumb', does that make all peace process dumb to you tolstoi?

have you ever wonder why the GRP seems cooperative with the MILF's peace process?..it's because the MILF showed their earnest sincerity in achieving a lasting peace with the GRP contrary to what the NDF/CPP showed in their past attempts..and for this, the international community may even grant financial assistance to the MILF if ever the peace process will be sealed by both parties.

http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/net...ace.talks.html

now we see who is for peace and who is for war. for someone who is as blood-thirsty as you are who seemed to endorse an all-out war with the MILF as 'not totally dumb' move by a 'dumb goverment'...

it is now clear that you, after all your pretentions, are not for peace after all.

wow so i'm now blood thirsty ey?..sori but i'm not..i could have not supported PGMA for its all-out-war campain against the NDF/CPP if they have just been cooperative with the GRP....if they did not resort to terror [burning of cell sites, burning of buses, burning of private equipments, extortion, killing of Ex-Commies..etc]..if they just accepted the signing of CAHRHIL under the turf of the Phil constitution...etc..etc

sadly, the NDF seem uncooperative because they wanted to push their selfish agenda that is to change the system of government in the Phils. into a Maoist regime..and it's so unfortunate that they are dealing with a mighty president ..but i guess things could have been better though if they only follow the lead of the MILF.

but i do recognize that the GRP is a government by itself same with the NDF. both are founded and run by Filipinos.

oops hold it ryt there =) ...you're saying that it was founded by 'A' filipino [Sison] and run by 8000+ members?

while i recognize both as governments, it is you who fail to meet the status quo which recognizes the existence of both. it is you who tries to discredit the achievements of the peace process and instead pines for a bloody resolution for this conflict.

from what i witness, the NDF/CPP discredited themselves by staging terrorist activities even when the peace negotation was on-going..activities like burning cellsites, buses, private equipments and sadly by killing ROWE..ring a bell?

your idea of democracy as equal solely to 'suffrage' is erroneous, as erroneous as your GRP propaganda regurgitations of the NDF as having 'no elections' inside its own body.

how come it's erroneous when the filipino 'populace' could participate in chosing its leaders/representative in the government?

i just like to quote you this one..

Because, in a democracy, the authority of the government derives solely from the consent of the governed. The principal mechanism for translating that consent into governmental authority is the holding of free and fair elections.

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pub...em/whatdm5.htm

forced. funny. as if your dis/agreement to paying taxes dictates whether or not you should. if what you want to say is true, then if you do not want to pay the GRP taxes because you say you are being 'forced' to do so, and in the process being 'robbed' then it's ok not to pay taxes?

i would be glad to pay taxes since i know that i participated in the 'formation of this government', the government who obliged me to contribute something for its development.

when NDF/CPP collects rev taxes, who will benifit from it?..certainly not the POPULACE.

democracy sir, is not just about electing people to power, but also holding those people accountable. democracy is also about those people elected to actually represent and serve the interest of the people; something that is missing in this socio-political scenario that we have.

what you offer as 'voters education' is a palliative to a deeper socio-economic problem. what you fail to see is that it is only the representatives of the ruling class that can only run and actually win; the very same socio-economic class where we see the corrupt politicians, the trapos, etc that we see as serving their own interests. they propagate themselves by nepotism and enacting laws that serve themselves and their business interests.

true democracy enables us to remove these people entirely from the political scene. with the current socio-cpolitical culture, can we?

when you say remove entirely, meaning change the system to where the NDF feels fitting?..a maoist regime perhaps?

like i said, what we should revamp is the way how the election works in the country, the election is a great turning point if we want changes in our current system..if we could just change the level of mindset of the voters to choose a rightful candidate then we could somehow uplift the current political situation thus paving the way for a progressive nation.

two words:

ask them

that's the main problem of our debate, you somehow shares ideology with the NDF/CPP but would conveniently decline to 'represent' them as a resource person..how could we attain rational conclusion if you will act that way?..i know that's good to play safe, but i guess you can answer it figuratively or whatever ways [perhaps thru a parable] just for our discussion's sake.

i'll let you in on a little secret. i do not care if the NDF wins or loses. what i care about is that this conflict be resolved peacefully through the institution of the direly needed socio-economic reforms that this country needs. if the GRP can provide these reforms and therefore uplifting the living standards of the people, then the armed revolution will lose its support.

i say reform the electoral process [including its system and the voters mindset], so that progress will be at hand. :mrgreen:

no clear proof. why sir,has 'educating the Filipino electorate' proven itself effective so far?

isn't it a valid analysis that the political structure of this country is dominated by the socio-economic elite which does not represent the interest of the majority and does not respect the constitution?

or is it your wish that this political elite continue to rule and to silence every form of dissent, bloody if necessary (as you seem to want)? is this your brand of democracy now?

it's just a simple analysis bai..if you could only make the mindset of the voters mature enough to choose a proper candidate, say for example, instead of jumping on the popularity of FPJ or GMA, the VOTERS will just pick-out ROCO on the grounds that he was more capable and knowledgeable than the latter candidates...it's so simple that the only thing it could take is a proper education.

just picture it that we have a mature voting population similar in the US..i guess our country could have been any better.

[Juan Miguel]

Well done, Gareb! Your rebuttals are well structured & are presented in a true debaters form. I have to admit that I have learned a lot in your exchanges w/ tolstoi. You have dispelled the myths that demonized the NDF. Again, keep it up & keep it coming. Salamat.

[apathetic child]

Well done, Gareb! Your rebuttals are well structured & are presented in a true debaters form. I have to admit that I have learned a lot in your exchanges w/ tolstoi. You have dispelled the myths that demonized the NDF. Again, keep it up & keep it coming. Salamat.

I agree. Gareb's rebuttals are weaved in an intellectual fashion and I like the details he presented about the NDF as these details are unfortunately not quite known to the many as they are seldom taught in schools. As what I can get from Gareb's discussion regarding NDF, the CPP-NPA-NDF forms a government. And as what every government does, it makes laws, it collects taxes and imposes penalty to those who fail to comply with the laws. Burning cell sites is one of the penalties that they impose presumably in accordance with the laws that they set which have to be binding among the people living within their defined teritories. In this case, the NDF therefore cannot be considered as terrorist based on the definition of terrorism adopted by Gareb. In the Phils, there are 3 governments the GRP, NDF and MILF. The NDF and GRP is at war apparently due to their conflicting interests.


Personally, I can understand why there are organisations such as MILF and NDF that stood up against the government. I cannot deny that the GRP is not always good in handling our country. As we can see, funds are misappropriated, social services are inadequate, unemployment is prevalent, prices are skyrocketing, education is getting expensive, daghan squatters, daghan pobre mangorakot pa jud ang gobyerno and etc. I was greatly shocked and disappointed at the sight of Vicente Sotto patients. Kulang kaau ang mga facilities oi, mura silag animals.. tsktsktsk.. However, dapat sad jud unta mupresent ning mga organisations ug feasible alternatives (if they have) to combat these problems. If Gareb could let us know the NDF's proposed alternatives, that would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks for this thread! it is educational really.

[Tirong-say]

By definition I think they are,
but in terms if idealism and struggle for ones rights
I think they have their reasons.

[JcBoY]

By definition I think they are,
but in terms if idealism and struggle for ones rights
I think they have their reasons.

Agreed ko aning imong perception nila brod.

Though very lenghty and educational ang ila discussion ni Tolstoi ug ni Gareb but it cannot deny the facts nga ang CPP/NDF labi na ang ilang armed group nga NPA nagbuhat usab ug dili maayo, like involuntary disappearance/unjustified killings, extortions, using innocent civilians as human shields causing unreasonable civilian displacements in rural areas, they may not accept these but these are happening. And these people CPP/NDF/NPA are against development in rural areas because they want to project to the people that the government is inutile in giving legitimate services to the masses so that it is easy for them to fool the innocent civilians. They believed that they are also a parallel government in the Philippines by imposing their laws through their kangaroo court. One thing pud ako masulti ning mga tawhana, mga tapulan nagsalig lang ug pabuhi sa mga masa, ug dunay daghan NPA ang usa ka lugar wa gyud asensyo!

[johnmar]

CPP/NDF.....for me personally....i like their idealism....i agree that our country and the present world order are favorable to the elite side....coz thats the system....our country is a semi feudal semi- colonial.....with this 3 problems imperialism,feudalism,bureuacrats capitalism....thats why...ing-ani ang reality sa atong nasud....

[apathetic child]

CPP/NDF.....for me personally....i like their idealism....i agree that our country and the present world order are favorable to the elite side....coz thats the system....our country is a semi feudal semi- colonial.....with this 3 problems imperialism,feudalism,bureuacrats capitalism....thats why...ing-ani ang reality sa atong nasud....

Interesting. I've been hearing this from the activists. Is it possible for you to kindly elaborate the terms, semi-feudal, semi-colonial and the 3 problems, imperialism, feudalism and bureaucrat capitalism? How come our country is semi-feudal and semi-colonial? What are these 3 problems that cause our reality to be like this? Can you also describe the reality? Also, is this what the CPP/NDF believes? Thanks.

[wikki]

kinsa tong amew nga nag advise ni Erap to stop the war right when the army was literally about to annihilate them.. terrorist to! angay to e bitay.