Central Visayas minimum wage now P285 per day

[Tirong-say]

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And what does the law say? As you yourself said, the tripartite boards are the ones who raise salaries albeit artificially. Government, business and labor representatives try to discern what the proper wage is. The reason basic wage is low is because customers are not willing to pay more for products produced here, compared to products produced elsewhere and because our inflation is so high. It's not because companies are greedy. Companies are greedy everywhere but people get paid more in other countries than they do here. Is it because of minimum wage or because they make better products at better prices?

I'm wondering if you know the answer to this.. is it possible to increase wages without increasing the price of food and services?

In the first place why start a business having a product line that is not really that attractive?, there are studies before starting a business?, I would not start one if my reason is that I could still get a profit just because of low labor cost.

[Tirong-say]

(h) Fair return of the capital invested and capacity to pay of employers;

I think one of my many points confirms it all in that provision alone. That a business should be able to make a return.

Mao lagi ilang capacity to pay maorag wa gyud, o naa ba kaha kay 285 ra man ilang mahatag.

[RMK711]

In the first place why start a business having a product line that is not really that attractive?, there are studies before starting a business?, I would not start one if my reason is that I could still get a profit just because of low labor cost.

What kind of attitude is this? So we should just price ourselves out of the market by paying our workers 10x more than what they pay in China.. therefore the Philippines will be the unemployed country of Asia. Is this your objective? Please enlighten sir. Your way of thought confounds me, it seems to be the path of surrender. Businessmen want to do business if they can make money. If you make labor so expensive AND at the same time jack up inflation so that whatever "big salary" there is, is eaten up by higher prices of basic goods like food and shelter there then don't you think its better to lie down and shoot ourselves in the head? In this globalized economy what you are suggesting is suicide, sir. Pardon my saying. But you have no idea how this world works and your simplistic view of "if the product line can't pay high wages why bother" will cause this country to remain backward.

I still want to know if you understand, sir. Is it your belief that you can increase wages without increasing living expenses such as food and shelter? Yes or no. That will settle everything if you can explain thoroughly your understanding of this subject matter. If you do not understand what you are talking about then don't you think it's better to just listen to people who do, after all I do have a major in economics. I'm not bragging ok, it is just that it seems you want to talk about things without understanding fully the implications in which case it is unproductive and not helpful to other people who may be thinking about the subject matter and are fooled into the thought that higher minimum wages are good for the country, when they just aren't.

Also your line of questioning shows you have a very narrow view of the business world. Think for a moment that a lot of the businesses that will be affected are businesses that are already operating, in other words, businesses that are already employing a lot of workers and to which these workers depend for their livelihood. If you increase wages and these businesses turn from profitability to a loss, then they may lay off anywhere from half their workers or close shop. If they did so, and if many businesses did this on such a scale as to cause massive unemployment and unrest, who would be answerable? Are you willing to subsidize their living expenses? Do we have unemployment benefits like they do in other countries? It seems to me you have no idea the suffering these people will endure if they lose their jobs. You are only thinking about the low wages, but those low wages are better than no wages at all. Businesses don't materialize out of thin air. If you don't have the right environment for business, they will not come. This is the reason they provide so many incentives to call centers to come here, from tax breaks to exclusion from labor organization.

One thing you also don't seem to get is there is a way to get higher wages, without resorting to legislated minimum wage. That is through improved productivity via better skills training and education. This is called a natural wage increase, the increase in salary is dictated by a real foundation of improved productivity eg. growth. Artificial increases in salary are founded on absolutely nothing, in other words the country is not actually better off. You are better off for maybe a week or a month, but then prices of everything will accelerate far beyond whatever minimum wage was granted and you might end up in a worse position. It is not a real increase in salary, but stagnation. If I were a worker I would prefer a natural (real) wage increase that won't be accompanied by inflation.

[Tirong-say]

What kind of attitude is this? So we should just price ourselves out of the market by paying our workers 10x more than what they pay in China.. therefore the Philippines will be the unemployed country of Asia. Is this your objective? Please enlighten sir. Your way of thought confounds me, it seems to be the path of surrender. Businessmen want to do business if they can make money. If you make labor so expensive AND at the same time jack up inflation so that whatever expensive labor there is those employers will still suffer from perennial lack of money (due to high living expenses) then don't you think its better to lie down and shoot ourselves in the head? In this globalized economy what you are suggesting is suicide, sir. Pardon my saying. But you have no idea how this world works and your simplistic view of "if the product line can't pay high wages why bother" will cause this country to remain backward.

What attitude?, the business acumen is what I'm talking about here, if one is so bad in doing business can he drag the labor force with him?, and my take why is it that other countries did able to do good business and give better pay, why can't we?...makes me wonder is something wrong here, we have the resources and the manpower, why can't we do excellent business, or else perhaps their is already only blanketed by the supposed negative side of doing business.

[RMK711]

What attitude?, the business acumen is what I'm talking about here, if one is so bad in doing business can he drag the labor force with him?, and my take why is it that other countries did able to do good business and give better pay, why can't we?...makes me wonder is something wrong here, we have the resources and the manpower, why can't we do excellent business, or else perhaps their is already only blanketed by the supposed negative side of doing business.

That's a very good question don't you think, sir. Why there are so many countries that historically didn't have a minimum wage and yet are able to pay their workers so much more than we do? There's only two explanations to this: 1) Their government has set up an environment conducive to business by fair taxation and infrastructure expenditure or 2) Their workers, because they are better educated, have better skills and are therefore able to command higher wages. In most cases it is a combination of those two. There are even countries that have a minimum wage, but because their citizens are so well-educated and highly skilled the majority of workers don't rely on the minimum wage but are paid many times more.

The simple answer to your question sir is that businesses will pay for talent. That's why banks pay their managers well above the minimum wage. That's why CEO's get paid millions. Businesses are logical entities, if you are worth a high salary, they will pay you to gain your talent and stop you from working for their competitors. If you have people who are not educated or skilled enough or productive enough then those businesses will not be able to compete with organizations overseas. You say businesses dragging down the workforce, but I think it is the other way around most of the time as the business is only there to organize the workforce, if they are not as productive as those overseas, then high wages will result in loss of jobs without a doubt. Its not the fault of companies that our government doesn't invest enough in our infrastructure and in the education of our people. Our major income earner now are call centers, and those agents earn far above the minimum wage, but most are educated in private schools, not public schools and as I said the government has provided them with a package of incentives to come here. It is a fact of life that we can't dictate to the business community, they will go where they can make money. As you have said yourself, if they do a project study and figure out that the cost of business here is too high, then they won't set up shop here. That's potential employment lost, and more unemployed people. That does us no good at all, then these businesses will locate in China so China becomes richer and with that wealth they will buy weapons which they will use to maybe attack us one day (farfetched but possible)

[RMK711]

ensuring that the company will continue to operate means having money for itself to be sustained. Don't confuse company with management. management are the heads. they are not always the stakeholders or stockholders of the company. I can be a manager but not a stakeholder/stockholder of the company. sinweldoan ko. no profit sharing. Don't generalize too much. Management wants to keep the company alive because if it dies, so do the chances of the employees wanting to be continually employed by said company. Not to hit below the belt, but it seems like you are merely comprehending my arguments skin deep. You have not fully comprehended the meaning of these statements otherwise your responses would be different and we wouldn't be running around in circles. Honestly, kapila nako nag balik2x sa akong mga points of discussion.

If you look historically the major purposes of incorporating a company is for the interest purely of the shareholders (eg the owners). These organizations were never meant to serve the interests of the employees, but even if they didn't they still provide a huge benefit to society by providing livelihood and taxation to the government. It is supposed to be the taxes given to the government that will help the ensure the people have a decent life, not the salary from the business solely. In short, I agree that management usually only thinks about themselves, but on the other hand I say so what? That's what companies are for, to make money for the owners not to provide cushy jobs to people that pay whatever they demand. The problem here is that government does not function well, so the taxes businesses generate are squandered and are not being utilized for the benefit of the people.

[Tirong-say]

That's a very good question don't you think, sir. Why there are so many countries that historically didn't have a minimum wage and yet are able to pay their workers so much more than we do? There's only two explanations to this: 1) Their government has set up an environment conducive to business by fair taxation and infrastructure expenditure or 2) Their workers, because they are better educated, have better skills and are therefore able to command higher wages. In most cases it is a combination of those two. There are even countries that have a minimum wage, but because their citizens are so well-educated and highly skilled the majority of workers don't rely on the minimum wage but are paid many times more.

The simple answer to your question sir is that businesses will pay for talent. That's why banks pay their managers well above the minimum wage. That's why CEO's get paid millions. Businesses are logical entities, if you are worth a high salary, they will pay you to gain your talent and stop you from working for their competitors. If you have people who are not educated or skilled enough or productive enough then those businesses will not be able to compete with organizations overseas. You say businesses dragging down the workforce, but I think it is the other way around most of the time as the business is only there to organize the workforce, if they are not as productive as those overseas, then high wages will result in loss of jobs without a doubt. Its not the fault of companies that our government doesn't invest enough in our infrastructure and in the education of our people. Our major income earner now are call centers, and those agents earn far above the minimum wage, but most are educated in private schools, not public schools.

Okay point taken, nice one.......
But still, everyone in a certain company is a contributor to the business, even the most mundane janitor has it's share, I think there should be equal treatment but not really that exorbitant, but perhaps provide them a descent life which they could live comfortably.

[RMK711]

Okay point taken, nice one.......
But still, everyone in a certain company is a contributor to the business, even the most mundane janitor has it's share, I think there should be equal treatment but not really that exorbitant, but perhaps provide them a descent life which they could live comfortably.

And that is the job of the government to provide the foundation so that most people will not work as a janitor. Salary is a function mainly of supply and demand. If most people are highly educated, then very few people will be available to work as a janitor, hence their salary will increase considerably. Did you know that embalmers are paid a huge amount of money? Because most people don't want that kind of job, so the few that do command a high salary. And in other countries, plumbers get paid more than bank managers, again the reason is supply and demand. What about those pilots at PAL, why are they able to jump ship and work for other airline companies easily? Because they are highly skilled, and there are very few excellent pilots that can rival Filipino pilots. Our pilots have been renowned ever since that PAL plane that managed to land safely even after a bomb exploded. As you see, there will always be high paying jobs for people that deserve it. It's not always the case that businesses dictate the wages of the employee, there are many employees who can demand higher wages because of their skill and because they are in demand.

If the people in government just do their job well, then people will be able to undertake any job they want and earn a decent living. And sir, I do not say the job of a janitor is mundane. I say it's a job like everything else. I want them to have a decent life but in this environment where there are many uneducated people you can't expect them to be able to do so. That's the fault of our government and why we should demand more from them in terms of providing the basics, a quality education and better infrastructure for the development of our country. If there is one salary increase I will support it is a huge salary increase for teachers, as we need more of them, and we need smarter ones. You can't attract smart teachers with the smaller salaries they are given.

[Tirong-say]

And that is the job of the government to provide the foundation so that most people will not work as a janitor. Salary is a function mainly of supply and demand. If most people are highly educated, then very few people will be available to work as a janitor, hence their salary will increase considerably. Did you know that embalmers are paid a huge amount of money, and do you know why? Because most people don't want to become one, so the few that do command a high salary. And in other countries, plumbers get paid more than bank managers, again the reason is supply and demand. If the people in government just do their job well, then people will be able to undertake any job they want and earn a decent living. And sir, I do not say the job of a janitor is mundane. I say it's a job like everything else. I want them to have a decent life but in this environment where there are many uneducated people you can't expect them to be able to do so. That's the fault of our government and why we should demand more from them in terms of providing the basics, a quality education and better infrastructure for the development of our country. If there is one salary increase I will support it is a huge salary increase for teachers, as we need more of them, and we need smarter ones. You can't attract smart teachers with the smaller salaries they are given.

Yup got your point again, but still we cannot deny we need Janitors, right?

[RMK711]

Yup got your point again, but still we cannot deny we need Janitors, right?

Hehe well define need. Some people say they can't live without a maid, so they need one. Personally I have lived overseas and did all for myself so I can't say I really need one. If janitors are badly needed, they will get paid a lot. That's why I say we need better education, so there will be more work opportunities available and fewer people will be competing for janitorial jobs.

I can say that there is a need for janitors, but you also can't deny that there are way too many people competing for these jobs, so you have 2 janitors for every floor paid next to nothing. In other countries they might have one janitor for an entire building so he gets paid more. Don't you find it funny when you go to the mall here and you have one janitor assigned to every bathroom and he is there all the time cleaning continuously? You never see that in other countries. I also find elevator girls amusing, pushing buttons all day. You don't see that in other countries either, except maybe Japan but that was a long time ago when women were considered unemployable there except as elevator girls . It's just supply/demand sir...