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  1. #231

    How could there be something out of nothing?

    nothing is the absence of everything, energy, matter and blah blah blah...

    How could something transformed from nothing? In scientific views, it is imposible, in supernatural views, it's very much posible...

    so I dont think the universe transformed by chance...

  2. #232
    C.I.A. Peenut's Avatar
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    Energy is constant. (Facepalm)

    Energy couldn't be created nor destroyed. (Facepalm)

  3. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    You want proof that modern apes, monkeys and humans share a common ancestor(missing link)?
    As I previously stated, the missing link is not a requirement to prove this. Why?
    Think of monkeys as the color orange, and humans the color violet.
    The missing link would be somewhere between the graduation of colors from orange to violet. Suppose we found an intermediary fossil(colored red).

    orange -- red --- violet

    What does that get us? Two more missing links! One between orange and red, another between red and violet. "Aha!" The creationists proclaim. "There are missing links between the previously found missing link. Evolution can't be accepted as true!"

    If you continue this exercise of finding "missing links" you soon realize, that what you are looking for, simply cannot be pinned down to just one specific shade of color. Do you know why this is? Because evolution works in very slow graduations. So slow, that the difference in appearance and genetics between one or 2 generations is hardly noticeable.

    Imagine a ladder with a thousand rungs(steps). Think of one generation as a rung in a ladder. The higher rung is the parent generation of the lower rung. Think further that the lowest rung is orange, the highest rung is red. The rungs in between is a gradient of colors between orange and red. Imagine you are climbing this ladder. Take note of the color difference between adjacent rungs as you go higher up. I'm pretty sure you won't be able to tell the difference at eye level. You'll end up at the end in red not noticing at which specific point it changed from orange!

    Now at this top of the ladder, you notice that there is another way down. You slowly go down this ladder. Taking notes of the color difference between adjacent rungs as you go along. You reach the ground, and realize the last rung is now violet! Again you scratch your head, at which specific rung did this change happen? Ah.. you can not say.

    That is how transitional lifeforms(missing links) are, that is how evolution works. Every now and then a rung(transitional fossil) is found, but then you'll realize that there could have been more rungs to be found in between! Seeing as how difficult it is for a fossil to form and the countless transitional lifeforms that have ever existed, there will always be "missing links". That can not be helped. That is why saying that missing links disprove evolution sounds stupid.

    So why, if not relying on fossils, are scientists so sure that humans, apes and monkeys shared a common ancestor? The answer is simple, its in the DNA.

    Here's a video playlist to get you started
    Matching codons for glutamic acid found in closely related species(humans, apes and a rhesus monkey)
    YouTube - Evidence for Evolution, Part I

    Similar GULO pseudogene(for making vitamin C, but lost functionality in primates)
    YouTube - Evidence for Evolution, Part II

    Similar retroviral insertions(remnants of a virus invasion that altered the DNA)
    YouTube - Evidence for Evolution, Part III

    Humor me and tell me you're still not convinced. lol

    Speculative diay gihapon ang evolution, wala pa may concrete nga proof, naay suggestive pero dili conclusive, am I right or wrong?
    It is far too slow, do they have the scientific datas to show that such a change do exist and it is slow?

  4. #234
    evolution cant be proven if there are still missing links...

  5. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    again, reading comprehension please.
    Why would it need a cause if it always existed?
    @robert - Uncaused cause lagi na bro.
    Mao na ilang Alpha-Omega. The beginning and the end. It existed in eternity. =)

    Now, from your latest reply (gi-career na jud neh nato da. hehehe).

    1. There are completely natural explanations presented on how non organic chemicals can form organic materials. Look up Abiogenesis. ( for the so called "Life points to life")
    Sorry, all theories and hypotheses are subject to criticisms and mostly refuted.
    That is why, a secular website, were still inviting researchers to give valid, irrefutable theory on how the first living cell could arise from a young planet earth.
    So, what hypothesis you might be supporting? the Primordial soup? Sorry, this is already rejected.
    Wiley::New Research Rejects 80-year Theory of ‘Primordial Soup’ as the Origin of Life
    What's next?
    (Chance?)

    Evolution explains how complex and intelligent creatures can evolve from simpler organisms( "This is for the so called "intelligence points to intelligence"). No intelligent beings required.
    I don't know why you keep coming back to this. Balik-balik, tuyok-tuyok.

    Evolution explains how complex creatures evolve from simpler organism.
    Take note it does NOT explain why an irrational creature (from an ape-like form) became self-conscious being with freewill. Alangan man sad ni-kalit lang ug ka-sipok ang utok atong unggoya, nimata lang ug kalit, ug ni-ingon: "Waaahhh, I'm a monkey!!".
    Yes, we could have the same "ancestral genetic root" as of apes. Besides, all living creatures could came from that single-celled animal 3.7 billion years ago. But as new evidences arise, it is found out that humans and monkeys lineage was split.

    That was the turning point. Chimps continue with their animal instinct, homonids have freewill.
    Was it adaptation? Please remember this is not just a race for survival like monkeys learning new skills, or a cheeta's speed, it's about being self-conscious, having a freewill, and NOT dictated to a mere animal instinct.
    What hypothesis you might be supporting on this?
    (Another Chance?)

    "matter and energy exists outside space and time?" I never said this LOL!
    Originally Posted by redhorse1L
    1.See what I mean? There should be an uncaused cause. The only problem with this eternal singularity is that it would, in some way, be subjected to space time dimension. Having an object in a form of matter or energy is subject to changes. Let's just say that singularity has been there for 500 trilion years, was there no activity going on? Now, how about an infinite past?
    I think that singularity your talking is also beyond space and time (like God?)..
    1. Bingo!
    2. Bingo!
    This was what I was saying many posts ago. And you finally get it! Congratulations!
    Notice that my position does not cross into the supernatural realm. I don't invoke a "god", I stop at the universe(something that we know exists because we are in it and talking about about it now).



    So, you're now negating the claims that you've made?
    Like I've said, if you stop at the Universe, you will arrive in contradictions, like infinite past of things.



    The fact is, our reality is made up of hyperdimensional space. What ever exists outside of the 3 dimensional universe we perceive, what that looks like, even what that is, I can't imagine it. Our brains are tuned to 3 dimensions only.
    Well, we can't imagine a supernatural world. How's that?
    Extra dimension as predicted by String Theory is still within our space-time dimension.
    Beyond IT is NOT just unimaginable, but also unprovable.

  6. #236
    ayos! nibalik na ang among team captain... hehe...

    ice breaker usa... from my favorite TV Show Friends and lines from Joey Tribbiani:


    Joey: Hey Ross. If homo sapiens were in fact "homo" sapiens, could that be why they're extinct?
    Ross: Joey, homo sapiens are people.
    Joey: Hey! I'm not judging here.

  7. #237
    I was amazed and quite excited sa new idea ni Neil Turok ug Paul Steinhardt nga Endless Universe
    Nasugatan nako ni while watching the series Through the Wormhole..
    Share lang naki ni..check this one out http://endlessuniverse.net/

  8. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by hitch22 View Post
    You think we're not that similar to chimps? Watch this documenatary by Jane Goodal: click here (if the video from that link doesn't stream that fast, then use this link here).

    Above video is a production by the Jane Goodall Institute of Canada. Jane Goodall is a British primatologist, ethologist, and anthropologist, considered to be the world's foremost expert on chimpanzees. She is best known for her 45-year study of social and family interactions of wild chimpanzees in Gombe Stream National Park, Tanzania.

    Here's a snippet taken from Jane Goodall's article on About Chimpanzees - So Like Us (click here to read).



    We tend to say there's a vast difference in intellect between humans and chimpanzees because of how far we've come as a civilization. Remember the lineage of the species Homo Sapiens split off from the chimpanzees' lineage some millions of years ago. So, there's a lot of time for separate development and evolution of the brain and morphology. Actually, if you go all the way back to how early homo sapiens lived, you may see the differences in lifestyle and behavior narrowed down by quite a lot.



    Look, scientists didn't just come up with the idea of Chemical Evolution out of nowhere or as a conspiracy against Theism. They start with observations. And what did they observe? Well, the most striking verification of our relationship with the rest of living things is in our body chemistry. Our body contains the same chemical compounds, derives its energy from the same chemical reactions, and utilizes the same chemical mechanisms as every other life-form. Now, why is that? Why would it be ridiculous to say that we probably have a chemical origin, when our whole body is indeed made up of chemicals? What's more? The rest of life is constituted with the same chemistry. One has to wonder about that common denominator. The logical question then becomes: Could it be because we share the same chemical origin?

    You can think of life as arranged in a great ladder, starting with the basic chemical compounds that make up living things, progressing upward to microscopic cells, then to collections of cells that make up organs, organ systems, and finally organisms themselves. Each new organism begins with a single cell, yet within that microcosm lies all the information needed to create the whole organism in all its complexity. In every form of life, a few different atoms and molecules, in cells with the same kinds of architecture, adopt very different designs. And where do we get such complex designs from? How are they read and passed on from generation to generation? We now know, of course, that every living thing on Earth uses the same strategy: All life is based on the same genetic code.

    So, we take all these facts together and start finding out the HOW QUESTIONS. The most difficult of these questions obviously has to be the origin of life. To this date, this is largely a work-in-progress project. Maybe we will have an answer in our lifetime, or maybe not.

    BUt what's the Theistic alternative. GOD DID IT. He said the magic words, and lo and behold!....LIFE. As you can see, that's not a scientific hypothesis where you can test, observe, and verify.



    Yes indeed. Nobody said the leap would be a short one.



    In the study of Chemical Evolution, the primordial soup theory (or hypothesis if you insist) is just one of many competing attempts at a plausible explanation on how the first living cells could have arose. The primordial soup is often rejected but there is actually no overwhelming consensus on this subject. And there is no decisive evidence for any one of them either.

    One of the interesting explanations is the inorganic clay crystals theory by Graham Cairns-Smith. The recently more fashionable one is the view that the conditions under which life first arose were akin to the Hadean habitat of today's thermophilous bacteria and archaea, some of which thrive and reproduce in hot springs.

    Today, however, majority of biologists are moving toward the RNA World Theory. And this is probably the most persuasive theory of them all (in my opinion)...although still subject to further tests and research. We have no evidence about what the first step in making life was, but we have some plausible ideas of what the kind of steps it must have been. That's what these hypothesis are there to compete for.

    The problem with the primordial soup explanation is that it's only good enough for spontaneous generation of amino acids...and eventually we can expect perhaps polymerization into proteins. This turns out to be less promising. This isn't to deny that proteins are vitally important for life, but there is one thing proteins are bad at: They are completely hopeless at replication. So that leaves the theory that life could've arisen spontaneously from a protein technically not viable. That's just my opinion though...it could be viable for all you know.

    What creationists tend to do, however, is to attack the hypothesis that has either a lot of disputes in the scientific community or has little support therein. A classic strawman tactic. But that does not prove that Chemical Evolution---the broader interdisciplinary subject---has failed as a pursuit in explaining the origin of the first life. Again, like the subject on the origin of the universe, the origin of life is also one of the grey areas in science. Scientists are still working on it.

    And the grey areas of science are where religious fundamentalists love to place their magic theory as the viable alternative...the God of the gaps. They would say "See, it's impossible to get life with the conditions that science have posited. I have the answer. I know that a powerful invisible magician had to be responsible for that. Omne vivum ex vivo (All life is from life). My magician is alive, eternal, and powerful. Therefore, my all-powerful magician did it."



    That quote is a copy-and-paste from creationist websites. That's not even Niles Eldredge's words. I'll tell you where that quote came from and how Eldredge got dragged into it. That quote came from Gerald L. Schroeder, in his book Genesis and the Big Bang (1990). Here's the full quote:



    The only words that belong to Eldredge is the one highlighted and underlined. The rest are from Mr. Schroeder, who is neither an authority in biology nor chemistry. The focus of most of his work is actually more on what he perceives to be an inherent relationship between science and spirituality (check his bio in Wikipedia).

    Schroeder's Genesis and the Big Bang is another one of those pieces of theology-fiction. It's written with the express purpose of trying to reconcile the Jewish Torah with accepted science.

    Niles Eldredge did indeed make the highlighted remark, but he made it in order to dispute a detail of evolutionary theory, not to debunk the whole Theory of Evolution. How can we tell where Eldredge stands on the Theory of Evolution? Well, take a look at this book which he wrote: The Triumph of Evolution...And the Failure of Creationism. You can buy the book from Amazon (click here).

    You really think Eldredge was out to debunk the whole Theory of Evolution? Ha! Nice try. I think that quote (as well as any quote people would copy-and-paste) has to be understood in its proper context. Here's why.

    Most of today’s evolutionary scientists focus not on whether evolution occurred, but how it occurred. When Darwin first proposed his theory, he argued that evolution proceeds at a slow, steady rate, and that small changes gradually accumulate to produce large ones. This view is known today as Gradualism.

    Eldredge and Gould, on the other hand, proposed an alternative view in the 1970s that goes under the name of Punctuated Equilibrium. In their view, evolution is characterized by long periods of little change, interspersed (punctuated) by short periods of rapid change.

    However, the fossil record we currently have simply isn’t good enough to allow us to differentiate between these two competing theories. In some fossil sequences, changes seem to be sudden, but other deposits reveal more gradual shifts. It is likely that evolution proceeds in both gradual and punctuated under different circumstances, but scientists will need more fossil data before they can resolve the issue.



    The media used that phrase "creating synthetic cell" perhaps to sensationalize the story. I thought of using that phrase as well to stress a point: That the idea of creating the first living cells from scratch is not as far-fetched as you think.

    But in any case, it still qualifies as a synthetic cell. A whole genome was written and synthesized using yeast as medium and then transfered to a bacterium where it took over and replaced the host cell's DNA (kinda like how viruses commandeer our cells' DNA in order for it to replicate themselves and invade our system). The result: IT'S ALIVE!...and it's able to replicate using the genetic information from the synthetic genome.

    If DNA is called the software of various cells of an organism, genome is the operating system because it's the entirety of an organism's hereditary information.

    Does it qualify then as synthetic cell? Yes. Some of the credit goes to the bacterium for providing the machinery to process DNA information. But most of the credit should go to the genome, which essentially instructs how an entire cell is to be constructed. And because the genome itself is synthetic, therefore the cell that got replicated from it should be considered synthetic as well.

    I can't help waxing poetic here, but I really do think this is a groundbreaking achievement despite critics who want to downplay it. I would grant that it's not creating a cell from scratch. But is it a far-fetched possibility to really create a living cell from scratch (creating and assembling the cytoplasm, mitochondria, nucleus, etc), given the implications of this breakthrough? I think Venter and co. solved one of the major pieces of this puzzle. There's a long way to go, but I think we're getting there fast.

    Wow, pinangga jud kaayo na nimo nga unggoy da. =)
    You feel their sadness, hapiness, fear and despair.

    You still don't realize the difference of animals and humans?
    Humans are RATIONAL. Chimps are IRRATIONAL.
    Bisan pa ug "bright" kaayo na imong uncle chimp, maayo kaayo ug sign language, or mag-computer, it cannot be compared to the freewill of an uneducated kid.
    Chimps run on instinct. You teach them new tricks, give them food. They learn new tricks.
    Humans run on freewill. You teach them new tricks, give them food. They learn new tricks, new ideas, become independent, and can even teach others.

    See the difference?

    Quote lang ko from my previous post:
    Evolution explains how complex creatures evolve from simpler organism.
    Take note it does NOT explain why an irrational creature (from an ape-like form) became intelligent, self-conscious being. Alangan man sad ni-kalit lang ug ka-sipok ang utok atong unggoya, nimata lang ug kalit, ug ni-ingon: "Waaahhh, I'm a monkey!!".
    Yes, we could have the same "ancestral genetic root" as of apes. Besides, all living creatures could came from that single-celled animal 3.7 billion years ago. But as new evidences arise, it is found out that humans and monkeys lineage was split.
    That was the turning point. Chimps continue with their animal instinct, homonids have freewill.
    Was it adaptation? Please remember this is not just a race for survival like monkeys learning new skills, or a cheeta's speed, it's about being self-conscious, having a freewill, and NOT dictated to a mere animal instinct.
    What hypothesis you might be supporting on this?
    What creationists tend to do, however, is to attack the hypothesis that has either a lot of disputes in the scientific community or has little support therein. A classic strawman tactic. But that does not prove that Chemical Evolution---the broader interdisciplinary subject---has failed as a pursuit in explaining the origin of the first life. Again, like the subject on the origin of the universe, the origin of life is also one of the grey areas in science. Scientists are still working on it.

    So what if after 100 years, no accepted naturalistic theory has still found?
    Are you hoping that someday, science will SAVE you from what you believe?
    I'm beginning to believe that atheism has becoming a religion also.

    BUt what's the Theistic alternative. GOD DID IT. He said the magic words, and lo and behold!....LIFE. As you can see, that's not a scientific hypothesis where you can test, observe, and verify.
    It's not a theistic alternative. That is what we believe all along.
    That God created the universe out from nothing.
    That God gave life to a lifeless universe.
    That God gave intellect to a once primitive irrational creature.

    Science can explain things within our world. But not everything (grey areas I pressume?)
    Of course, science will not state about a supernatural being since it is beyond its scope.

  9. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by robert_papalid_ece View Post
    ayos! nibalik na ang among team captain... hehe...

    ice breaker usa... from my favorite TV Show Friends and lines from Joey Tribbiani:


    Joey: Hey Ross. If homo sapiens were in fact "homo" sapiens, could that be why they're extinct?
    Ross: Joey, homo sapiens are people.
    Joey: Hey! I'm not judging here.
    Cencya na bro.
    Busy sa work, and family. =)
    Reply lang kung maka-lugar. Wa bitaw ta mag-dali. hehehe

  10. #240
    ... toink... mag lalis man noon...

    kung unsay feel ninyo mao nlng..

    kung anong pinaniniwalaan nyo... stick with it.. ok?

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