The Bible and Evolution

[jamesmusslewhite]

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failed logic. you are a scientist as you claim. you should not make statements that project a logic that is out of this world. you've been taught to think critically. yet you compare Dark Energy and God? come on James, you can do better than that. do not disappoint.
You read what you choose to read as to discredit. You made the statement that you do not believe what you can not see of prove. God, Dark Mater, and Dark energy are all unseen and not proven. They are in your own definition unproven unmeasurable theories. Therefore you can not accept them. Or are you saying all unproven unmeasurable theories you will accept as long as it is not God, Bible, or Religion? That constitutes a double standard, and those are intellectually unhealthy.

Originally Posted by jamesmusslewhite
It has to exist or the gravitational requirements which hold our universe together would not exist. God will have mass and an IQ of about 3,000. He is tired of man's foolishness. If you had a dog that bit you constantly, chewed all your belongings, and pisses on everything you have; would you keep him in your house? He put us in the yard, he still loves us, put he just does not want to play with us right now. We did it to ourselves, because he once had us in his house, and walked among us. When he thought we were still worthy.

Boy did we show him, when he made man we proved he could make mistakes.

lol... seems to me like you are now gearing towards Pantheism. so what are you?

Can not be Pantheism, I believe in a personal God. God walked with Adam which means he can have form (Mass) Even if he is pure energy he is (Mass). What part of my statement do you disagree with? He still loves us he just can not look at our filth, we disgust him. Man must break his heart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesmusslewhite
If Evolutionist spent more time trying to prove and not disprove the Bible. If Creationist would research the root text and properly understand what was actually meant, and not base their dogma on poorly translated English translations. If the two side met in the middle, they could finally get at the truth. I am not far left of far right, rather I am a centralist. A Christian Scientist. You are still too far Left, your God is a flawed Darwin; and you will never truly understand until you too become a Centralist. Enlightenment is in the middle of the two sides my friend.

funny. calling yourself a centralist would be contradicting to your own behavior in the forums. your posts clearly shows you utterly reject the idea of Evolution, if not totally reject it, gearing towards creationism. you said it yourself, you studied 14 or so years of evolution and saw flaws in it. you even went as deep as telling us Evolution is a lie. and you call yourself a centralist. you are a Christian Scientist? that is only a title. it does not coincide with your beliefs whatsoever.
How I can accept aspects of Creationism and Biology, and even large parts of evolution. I am not a big fan of Darwinian Theory. You can just just choose to ignore the gaps and hole, but I can not. I do not have to prove myself to you, answer to you, or try to impress you. I am a Christian Scientist, 40% of American scientist are Christians, and I knew many Biologist who are Christian. You are hard Left and my statement is accurate. I have stated numerous times that my main conflict is with evolution is inaccurate time lines that are not supported by the fossil records or which ignores other facts. Evolution does not disprove God or the ancient Hebrew text.Nor does the Bible disprove credible evolution theories. They are both saying the same things.
There is too much misinterpretations on both sides of the argument. Theologians and Atheist each pushing their agendas, hard Left (you) and hard Right (Creationist). I am in the middle because I see the connection between the two camps. I am a centralist. I stand where you are either too scared or to hardheaded to look. I think hardline Atheist and hardline Creationist both have their heads shoved up their asses. I see the Bible in Biology, and I see Biology in the Bible. If you can not well that is your personal problem. I can not help you with your limitations.

Originally Posted by jamesmusslewhite
You are a funny man, you really think God should do some magnificent thing so he can win your approval. Yes, God must dance for the monkeys. What have you ever said or done to think you are worthy of his time.

Man has sunk lower than dogs or pigs. Man is devolving not evolving.

All he owes us is death, and eternal torment. We owe him everything, heart, body, and soul; then pray we are worthy for salvation.

Man is devolving, not evolving? where'd you get that? lol... please present concrete sources to support your statement that humans are devolving. or better yet, you can check my other thread (which unfortunately got closed out because of OTs).
My own personal observations.
Man was designed to walk with God and look were we are now. Yes human have devolved. They can not conduct themselves in mass. You team wins the title and people riot, burn, and loot. Your forum thread was closed because adults could not conduct themselves as adults. Society gets sicker and each generation is worst than the last. You may think it is evolving but it is doing so backwards.

Someday maybe we will met face to face and be able to talk for a few hours, on the subject of the middle ground. Where even you can understand it.

[AmorsoloX]

Kinsa or unsa man jud diay sakto?...

kung naa na tana sakto nga tubag wala na tanay naglalis ani.. so this question is open.. let anyman decide for himself unsa answer ani, you can only give evidence sa inu sides, but from what you have, you cant be definite yet.. (kanang bible verses count as nothing na kung wala solid evidence.. pero you can still believe in them if you want.. nobody is stopping you..)

just like 1+1=2, wala naglalis kay definite man..

[jamesmusslewhite]

bluedes[/B]
yeah, the power of numbers because of the reason of human mind..
I believe that only the math can unravel the secrets of the universe due to the limitations to explore the boundaries. Good examples is Dark Matter and Dark Energy it was physicist trying to explain the gravitational forces of the universe that discovered that all the planets, stars, and celestial bodies only comprised 4% of the mass required to generate the required gravity. It even caused revisions in Newtons Law of Gravity. Biology can not stop arguing over the age of rocks, and whether whales and hummingbird are related.
Did you ever look up the topic of the "Ica Stones" and dinosaur Art of North and South America. Biology would rather ignore them than accept them, because it would unravel their little world.


i see.. i believe that will be a problem of history in the next couple of decades.. we've already begun to sequence the genomes of these fossils, and with a phylogenetic tree analysis, we can figure out that *missing* link sooner or later with the use of mathematics.

but i keep an open mind, so i'll look into that as well..
DNA is the only way fossils will unlock their true secrets. If you carbon date fossils you are not dating the fossil rather the mud or mineral which encases the fossil. If a shell was buried in 100 million year old mud just 12,000 years ago. Was dug up and carbon dated, it would say the shell is 100 million years old, not 12,000 years which would be it's true date. How much of the fossil records are tainted and wrongly dated? It also hold the best promise for signs of intelligent design. That and physics, I still enjoy reading about Quantum mechanics, string theory, multi-dimensions, Einstein's relativity, and Hawking Radiation research.

that's why I asked you what your definition of fittest is.. we cannot define what fittest is by our own standards.. it is nature and the environment that defines the fittest. by idealistic sense, the closest i could get to define what the fittest is, is an life-form that is the most flexible, adaptable in any type of environment.. that would be with the use of intelligence, and cunning.

look up what Cladism means.. maybe ull get an idea of what an alternative definition of fittest is..
I looked it up and booked marked several pages, it is a lot of reading but it looked quite interesting. I was more familiar with Hennig's Phylogenetic Systematics. Cladism was beginning to be accepted in 1992 or 1993 but I was working mostly in the field of Paleobotany and Plant genetics. DNA has advanced light years by now.


the word *perfect* is still vague.. how do you measure intelligence?
That is the problem intelligence does not equate into physical strength or attraction. A sickly animal and be very intelligent. If bred the offspring could be clever and still suffer from physical deficiencies. The same can also be said in reverse.


if you understand the failings and choose not to ignore them, why don't u write a book about it, and really rigorously develop your ideas that should make up for the failings that you have noticed..
There are more pressing things taking up my time. I am working on a agricultural/ horticultural blog to help Filipino farmers. I consult for the Local Agricultural agency here in the Surigao area. I am involved in a major project on Danagot Island introducing organic and square meter farming techniques to the local farmers. The local officials are trying to use it as a test study. I am also working on a the outline for a book on organic farming and gardening. To be distributed to local farmers to help teach them to break their dependence on commercial fertilizers which are causing damage to the ecology.
After I get everything else done I just might write a book or at least establish a website/ blog site on the subject. I could at least organize a working outline. Not a bad idea. Thanks.


you already postulate that the bible is written by a supernatural being.. that cannot be proven.. if the bible was written by such, why would he use such crude writings? and why give it to a bunch of people in ancient times? if god is so powerful, why not put this bible in some kind of material that cannot be broken, altered, or messed up with, and he could have at least written it in a number of languages so different nations could understand it.. that's a very unlikely postulate already for such a simple happenstance.. ever heard of Occam's Razor?
No but if you examine the properties of the original ancient Hebrew text, you will understand why it is the most amazing text comprised by man, which could only be inspired by a higher intelligence than mere men. It is infact a great poem on the history of the Jewish people. Why it was written as it was written, I honestly can not say. Maybe it was but they are lost to time. The Jewish nation was conquered and enslaved twice and then they left the country for 1,000 years. It is amazing any of it still exist.
Yes I am well aquanted with Occam's Razor, or coined differently K.I.S.S (Keep it simple stupid)


you obviously have not made any connection of the characteristics of humans to the rest of the living kingdom.. our ancestors were not a sorry bunch.. they survived, and some of them evolved into us now.. anyway, you're too sold out on creationism already that your mind has closed to its own imaginings only, you have not really followed up on the current developments of evolution (which is not a theory anymore btw).
I have not seen the evidence for me to make the jump from 50,000 year man to prehistoric ape. That connection to the missing ling has not been established. If man is the product of creation as written in Biblical text than man is not a product of evolution rather a victim of devolution. I had to read and understand evolution, having had it in High School and through 2 Science Masters. It was required reading. I have 3 masters with a combined GPA 3.76 I did my homework. 15 years I was an Atheist after surviving the 1983 Marine Barracks bombing in Beirut, Lebanon and being a recon/ Sniper. Later I went into Electronics/Telepony. I fought religion hard, but it choose to find me, and I never want to be that other person again. My belief changed me into a better person.


how can you see any credible evidence when you've stuck you're nose too deep in all that religious hocus-pocus.. its sad to think that you just threw out all those 14 years of being an evolutionary biologist to become a dogmatic creationist.. i beg to question if you were really an evolutionary biologist, or just pretending to be one..
But I an not dogmatic, I see the relationship between Science and Biblical account. you just have to get beyond bad translations and the smoke and mirrors. They tell the same story. You have to use the ancient Hebrew text and not the screwed up English translation, and avoid the Atheist dogma of Darwinism and use only the verifiable theories. I can accept the 14 billion year old timline, but I also accept the 6 steps to the creation of the universe. I have no agenda

Sorry I did not answer all your questions earlier, my monitor screwed up and I had to quick save, change out the monitor and restart. You had already responded to the first half, but I had not finished fully answering some of those questions.

[bluedes]

Sorry I did not answer all your questions earlier, my monitor screwed up and I had to quick save, change out the monitor and restart. You had already responded to the first half, but I had not finished fully answering some of those questions.

i'm sorry james for whatever earlier cynical tones i may have interspersed with my earlier posts..

the more i read of your posts, the more i understand where you're coming from..

but anyway, i still am not amenable to mixing religion of the past with science of today.. if you intend to mix religion and science, then religion has to evolve in a new system of beliefs, not its old ways where there's a dictatory god-figure..

i too would want to see religion and science not in conflict anymore.. that's why i dont despise the bible or any other alleged holy texts.. its difficult to criticize holy text when one does not know how or when it was being written.. i criticize, however, the current interpretations of people nowadays who have injected their own selfish agendas in order to profit from such endeavor.. especially those who take advantage of the emotional and intellectual incapacity of others..

[Pein]

Pein keeps yapping about CAUSE. there is no such thing as cause because causality about the universe's origin is currently unknown, and all we have are theories. Evolution on the other hand, is fact---there are numerous books and journals to support this. if we talk cause, it presents a bigger question about the origin of the supernatural, which of course Christians would only say "GOD doesn't have an origin/cause" which is BS. why would you ask atheists about the cause of the universe when you yourself can't explain the cause of GOD? all you have is FAITH. well tell you what, faith doesn't mean it's true. that is why it's called FAITH for crying out loud.

and please, don't pretend you know something about GOD because you don't. you are only human. you don't know GOD more than we know him (if ever he exist as you claim). so stop pretending.

there is no such thing as cause? kung unknown na diay ang origin buot nang ipasabot walay cause? toinks!

mao nay scientific thinking? abi ba nakog "nothing happens without a cause". pwede man diay mo mutuo without any cause...hahahaha!

mao nay blind faith...

[Gotterdammerung.2]

there is no such thing as cause? kung unknown na diay ang origin buot nang ipasabot walay cause? toinks!

mao nay scientific thinking? abi ba nakog "nothing happens without a cause". pwede man diay mo mutuo without any cause...hahahaha!

mao nay blind faith...

tanan diay naay casue? beh beh beh....

[Pein]

tanan diay naay casue? beh beh beh....

kung physical ang istoryahan naay cause. mao bitaw na ang law of physics "nothing happens without a cause"...sa physics naghisgot diay ug spiritual?

[bluedes]

I believe that only the math can unravel the secrets of the universe due to the limitations to explore the boundaries. Good examples is Dark Matter and Dark Energy it was physicist trying to explain the gravitational forces of the universe that discovered that all the planets, stars, and celestial bodies only comprised 4% of the mass required to generate the required gravity. It even caused revisions in Newtons Law of Gravity. Biology can not stop arguing over the age of rocks, and whether whales and hummingbird are related.
Did you ever look up the topic of the "Ica Stones" and dinosaur Art of North and South America. Biology would rather ignore them than accept them, because it would unravel their little world.

God is number.. hehehe.. that is what pythagoras and his followers believed in way back..
personally, i believe that too.. being a mathematician, i have come to realize how the study of pure numbers is just a transformation into the study of the universe.. but that's just me, and i leave that out of my scientific endeavors.

as for the Ica Stones, its on my to-do list.. i'll be flying to texas this holiday season, and i will definitely take a look at those stones u mentioned, and draw a conclusion for myself..

DNA is the only way fossils will unlock their true secrets. If you carbon date fossils you are not dating the fossil rather the mud or mineral which encases the fossil. If a shell was buried in 100 million year old mud just 12,000 years ago. Was dug up and carbon dated, it would say the shell is 100 million years old, not 12,000 years which would be it's true date. How much of the fossil records are tainted and wrongly dated? It also hold the best promise for signs of intelligent design. That and physics, I still enjoy reading about Quantum mechanics, string theory, multi-dimensions, Einstein's relativity, and Hawking Radiation research.

yeah, and it will be exciting times for the future.. with next-gen sequencing techniques, i wonder what kind of information we'll be unlocking in the next few decades.. it will finally provide answers to time-honored questions.. i just hope it will not be tampered with.. having read some emails in that hacked climategate issue, its kinda disturbing how information validity can be so fragile.. yet i'm still optimistic..

I looked it up and booked marked several pages, it is a lot of reading but it looked quite interesting. I was more familiar with Hennig's Phylogenetic Systematics. Cladism was beginning to be accepted in 1992 or 1993 but I was working mostly in the field of Paleobotany and Plant genetics. DNA has advanced light years by now.

its a lot to cover.. and that's where i draw my optimism from.. the likes of bergson, de chardin, and robert ardrey.. they are simply not just scientists anymore, but philosophers, who's integrity is not compromised by the lures of riches and fame in scientific grants and awards..

That is the problem intelligence does not equate into physical strength or attraction. A sickly animal and be very intelligent. If bred the offspring could be clever and still suffer from physical deficiencies. The same can also be said in reverse.
There are more pressing things taking up my time. I am working on a agricultural/ horticultural blog to help Filipino farmers. I consult for the Local Agricultural agency here in the Surigao area. I am involved in a major project on Danagot Island introducing organic and square meter farming techniques to the local farmers. The local officials are trying to use it as a test study. I am also working on a the outline for a book on organic farming and gardening. To be distributed to local farmers to help teach them to break their dependence on commercial fertilizers which are causing damage to the ecology.
After I get everything else done I just might write a book or at least establish a website/ blog site on the subject. I could at least organize a working outline. Not a bad idea. Thanks.

it reminds me of that saying that other folks were debating on in the other thread.. "blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth." this is one form of intelligence that eludes a lot of people.. meekness is not a sign weakness, but of strength, and sort of challenges the current status quo on what intelligence really is..

No but if you examine the properties of the original ancient Hebrew text, you will understand why it is the most amazing text comprised by man, which could only be inspired by a higher intelligence than mere men. It is infact a great poem on the history of the Jewish people. Why it was written as it was written, I honestly can not say. Maybe it was but they are lost to time. The Jewish nation was conquered and enslaved twice and then they left the country for 1,000 years. It is amazing any of it still exist.
Yes I am well aquanted with Occam's Razor, or coined differently K.I.S.S (Keep it simple stupid)

i have no objections against the text themselves.. its the interpretations that people draw upon them that's causing all these conflict, because they enforce (sometimes with violence) that their interpretation is the correct one.. that's how religion goes bad. i read a lot of other non-scientific stuff, like mystical poets such as rumi and omar khayyam.. they are written in probably the same level of intelligence as those written in the bible, but i dont hear others enforcing their interpretations to be the correct one.. whatever higher intelligence the bible or other alleged holy text is written by, it remains to be a speculation.. it could have been just written by a human who has really contemplated a lot about these things.. or an "enlightened" human if the use of the term is allowed.

I have not seen the evidence for me to make the jump from 50,000 year man to prehistoric ape. That connection to the missing ling has not been established. If man is the product of creation as written in Biblical text than man is not a product of evolution rather a victim of devolution. I had to read and understand evolution, having had it in High School and through 2 Science Masters. It was required reading. I have 3 masters with a combined GPA 3.76 I did my homework. 15 years I was an Atheist after surviving the 1983 Marine Barracks bombing in Beirut, Lebanon and being a recon/ Sniper. Later I went into Electronics/Telepony. I fought religion hard, but it choose to find me, and I never want to be that other person again. My belief changed me into a better person.

yeah, u did all that, but in no way does it invalidate the current findings on homo sapien's lineage of fossils found.. how do you explain fossil records that date pre-homo sapien time? don't tell me that those archaeologists just made those fossils up.. who knows..

But I an not dogmatic, I see the relationship between Science and Biblical account. you just have to get beyond bad translations and the smoke and mirrors. They tell the same story. You have to use the ancient Hebrew text and not the screwed up English translation, and avoid the Atheist dogma of Darwinism and use only the verifiable theories. I can accept the 14 billion year old timline, but I also accept the 6 steps to the creation of the universe. I have no agenda

but you are already being dogmatic..

there's no problem if you subscribed yourself to a belief in this supernatural god who is supposed to be made of pure energy, walked with man a long time ago and all that quasi-science/biblical story, everyone's entitled to their own beliefs..

but coloring ur responses on science with those beliefs is being dogmatic.. to some point, it would already sound quite wild and fantastic.. (minus the "unbelievers going to hell part"), its still interesting, its ur point of view, anyway..

[Gotterdammerung.2]

kung physical ang istoryahan naay cause. mao bitaw na ang law of physics "nothing happens without a cause"...sa physics naghisgot diay ug spiritual?

liboga nimo...

so unsa may cause sa physical universe?

[Pein]

liboga nimo...

so unsa may cause sa physical universe?

hahahaha! naglibog naka? luuya baya...

dba nangutana man ka nga kung tanang naa bay cause? gitubag taka kung physical aspects ang atong istoryahan, naay cause. mao bitaw na ang law of physics "nothing happens without a cause". diba sa physics ang gihisgutan man diha physical matters?

kung physical ang atong hisgutan, naa diay butang nga walay cause? beh beh beh...