The Gospel of Judas (Your views)

[estor_boot]

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i think the people who are into apologetics are called apologists. ingon pa ni Fr. Louie Punzalan in one of his homilies, mora na silag mga army. they are to defend the Church from attacks and suppress the lies thrown against the Catholic Church. i dont know though if apil na sa ilaha ang pag convert ug mga unbeliever.

some of the prominent apologists i know from Cebu are Mayor Soc Fernandez of Talisay and Atty. Marcelo Bacalso sa USC College of Law.

sakto ba sir dacs?

[dacs]

@dacs...then it is good i tagged an apology at the end....ha ha ha....now i understand better what motivates you...if the questions you posed were there for the sake of getting more info for a healthy discussion then it is perfectly fine by me and again my apologies for misinterpreting your intentions....most of the time man gud ang uban mag atang lang to "hijack" and to nitpick sa ideas sa uban...mao my bristles rise kon i get caught in situations like that....

Same here. I am an amateur at apologetics. I easily get carried away with the heat of the moment. Maybe I'll get better in dealing with my emotion in time... maybe... Fortunately enough, I realize early on that the 'intended emotion' of what has been posted may not always be the one I am assuming. Yet, the way I ask for clarification may be a bit sarcastic or cutting for someone else. That's a fault I have to live with and suffer. I pray that there may not be too many of them.

by the way unsa man nang apologetics? twice nako ka read nimo refer to yourself as such....

estor_boot has given a good-enough definition. That will do.

all people who are for the TRUTH ...are kewl in my book....so there you go...(by now siguro ka kuha na sad ka sa akong dislike to argue and debate a certain point--- discuss and learn ok lang pero i absolutely don't find any point splitting hairs)

I may become too 'inquisitive' to your liking. My experience has taught me that what someone considers as a big issue against the Catholic Church may not always be a big issue in the minds of Catholics. Knowing and understanding that God allows bad things to happen within the Church (as He so expressed in His parable about the kingdom of God and the enemy sowing seeds of weeds within it), they have taken everything 'with some grain of salt'. Only those who are not effectively catechized are easily persuaded with arguments that the affected Catholic never verifies with someone who have knowledge of Catholic understanding of such argument.

I'm sorry. I am beginning to write a litany of woes.

... (turning about; hands in pants' pockets; whistling) ...

[dacs]

i think the people who are into apologetics are called apologists. ingon pa ni Fr. Louie Punzalan in one of his homilies, mora na silag mga army. they are to defend the Church from attacks and suppress the lies thrown against the Catholic Church. i dont know though if apil na sa ilaha ang pag convert ug mga unbeliever.

Converting (read : proselytizing) is not for apologists. It is the job of the Holy Spirit. Apologists need only to straighten up misconceptions and misunderstanding and provide a better viewing point at Catholic Christianity. There is only one Church that claims to be Catholic and that Church is mentiioned in the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed.

[iron_golem]

Very interesting discussion. Very interesting minds too. I'm always up for good arguments like this thread, especially if it promotes exercise on sound logic.

A short comment on:

why would the specifics matter if they just inflame or turn away people from faith? Sa inyong ka specific naka convince mo ug agnostics?

To people who are already convinced that, say, 1+1 is never 2, it does not really matter if he is given a richly detailed book on the universal laws of mathematics. He really doesn't want to change his mind or does not concern himself at all about the universal math, or maybe has already his own "math" that computes differently. But to those who ask "Why 1+1=2?", the book would greatly help him more rather than just hear people say "Because that's so... 2 man gyud na." Also, not all people may be inflamed or turn away from a given detail. In fact, it maybe necessary to know about the details before deciding or setting one's mind on something. Beyond that decision, there's nothing details can do. Unless there is a change of mind later on. But of course, it's hard to imagine changing minds so often especially on something important for a lifetime, like faith.

So what are my thoughts on the topic? If it's new, sensational, and especially if it's "brave, anti-institutional, and foundation-breaking"... then it must be true. Or is it just a likeable truth because I'm tired of all that has been imposed on me and I seek something revitalizing and fresh?

But I'm convinced it's not new at all. Sensational, maybe, as others of its ilk. Foundation breaking? Umm... I choose to stand on 2000 years of foundation rather than a couple of hours of slick presentation.

[jspar8888]

its about time, the Vatican must reveal the selection process of the 4 gospels... (the canonization of the gospels). how did they know that those gospels were truly inspired by the Holy Spirit (and not by their own selfish intentions)?? remember that the selection process was done by humans who were in power during that time... religion is an effective tool for the powerful (remember that our beloved country was colonized by spain using the cross)....

[iron_golem]

its about time, the Vatican must reveal the selection process of the 4 gospels... (the canonization of the gospels). how did they know that those gospels were truly inspired by the Holy Spirit (and not by their own selfish intentions)?? remember that the selection process was done by humans who were in power during that time... religion is an effective tool for the powerful (remember that our beloved country was colonized by spain using the cross)....

It's not that "the Vatican" have never "revealed the selection process" for all this time. I think the process has already been known by most people at that time and no one is trying to hide it. It's just that Dan Brown is given more attention than the real historians these days. So most people take it from him than the people who made it their vocation as factual historians. For most common folk today, learning about how it was done is just a bother compared to enjoying time on T.V. and other popular entertainment. Some also are gleefully excited at what they have read from those conspiracies that they easily point out that what most Christians believe to be true for all this time are a mistake or perhaps totally untrue. Tsk tsk tsk.

At the time waaay back then, there was no "Vatican", there was a council of humans who happen to be the earliest Christians who had the authority to decide on matters of faith as taught to them by the original apostles. They need to decide in order to be guiders and guarders of the truth that they were taught in order to share it with others as the Lord commanded. Humans yes, but guided by the Holy Spirit too (Jesus promised that). Take out the Holy Spirit and we could say the Bible is pure fantasy, though an interestingly conclusive one and contains "positive" stuff. But we can't take out inspiration, because if we do, then all Christianity is not yet sure about itself even until now... taking away inspiration also applies to all the gnostic gospels too (though they were already judged to be uninspired), Judas' gospel not excluded, so all the gnostic believers would also not be sure about themselves. So, we have to believe the Holy Spirit did the job of inspiring and collecting all the inspired texts through the Church and making sure the uninspired ones doesn't make the cut. If some Christians don't believe that, one could say that Jesus and all the teachings about Salvation are still blurry for 2000 years to the present! Woe to all the people who have died then, never any chance to learn about the Word of God. Woe to us if in our lifetimes we will never come to be sure about that too! Unless of course if we already believe what Dan Brown has to say or what a certain 'dsicarded' gospel of so and so has to say. In that case, our knowledge about Jesus and salvation would still be incomplete. Sigh... why is God blurring and delaying His truth? Unfair is He? I might as well seek my own spirituality elsewhere before I run out of time... Christianity just takes too long to finally say something definite about itself.

[dacs]

its about time, the Vatican must reveal the selection process of the 4 gospels... (the canonization of the gospels).

There is a very simple solution for you. Read history - the real history, not those that purports to be a well-researched fiction. The selection process has been known since the time the canon of Scriptures was being decided. It was even before Magellan came to our islands. It was known even before you ever posted the 'challenge'. The problem is your inability to look for yourself if it is as Dan Brown said.

how did they know that those gospels were truly inspired by the Holy Spirit (and not by their own selfish intentions)??

Another reason for you to read history.

remember that the selection process was done by humans who were in power during that time... religion is an effective tool for the powerful (remember that our beloved country was colonized by spain using the cross)....

What power did those people possessed? At the time the canon was decided, this was a persecuted community. These Christians were food for the lions in the colloseum/coliseum. What power are you talking about?

[mango]

Very interesting-

[mosimos]

Dan Brown is part of a sinister conspiracy to discredit the Catholic Church. These groups are power hungry people and they want the papacy destroyed. Part of the spin that these people are spreading is that the Catholic Church is formed as a means to consolidate power.

These are desperate and very dangerous people. The evils that is spreadiing in the world today is caused by these people. These people have pagan beliefs and they want to recover a lost ground.

[Melvinthegreat]

its about time, the Vatican must reveal the selection process of the 4 gospels... (the canonization of the gospels).

ask a priest.. they might help you.. hehehehe.... "reveal" = naay gitago... ask them, and they will tell you what you need to hear... meaning, wla na nila gitago.. kinahanglan ra nimo mu ask..

matud pang dacs, read history....