Tinuod ba may porgatoryo?

[Pein]

---

Tinuod na bai...as well as sa mga apostolic father applied sad na. karon, ang pangutana as a christian as man nimo nahibaw-an ang pulong sa Ginoo? Sa Bible? Kinsa man sauna ang nag-baton ug authority para ipunan ang mga kasulatan ug nahimong Biblia? Kinsa may nag-justify na kining Biblia gikan sa Ginoo?

Perhaps that's one of the reasons why purgatory should exists primarily because to purify all sinners who are already save yet still committing sins while they are still living..otherwise nonsense sad sige ta ug ngayo pasaylo kay save naman kaha ta.

Tanuod na kay purgatory comes from Latin mao murag iya gyud sa mga roman christian pero ang concept about cleansing by fire is not really new kay maski ang Judaism naa man sila same concept sad. Also, kung pati orthodox christians naa man sad ingon ana nga belief.

Pero not just because literally wala sa Bible di pud buot pasabot wala ang concept...di ba? Mao gani naay issue sa ato mga christian bahin ani atong Bible nga double meaning kay perting daghana sa paagi pag-interpret niiini o interpretation. Wa ko balo sa tinuod ngano giingon-ana man sa Ginoo ang tao, gilugaw niya ila mga utok hehehe...I just trust God that He has reasons and simply not be troubled about it.

Actually mas play safe ang catholic hehehe..you see, they are in both side of the issue...believe=save and deeds=save...kaya lang because of plenary indulgence medyo makaduda na nuon hehe..

Irrelevant ni bai...kung believer ka's Ginoo its not an issue anymore. We are only talking about some sense here and we are way beyond being empirical and logical about this hehe..

Besides, how about kung ang purgatory existed only after Christ went to heaven since pwedi sad na ang purgatory is a place for temporary purification while the world still awaits the 2nd coming of Christs and consequently Judgment day. Naa baya mga sins na mapasaylo even after this world..

Aw true sad na, kaya lang kung imo gyud ayuhon ug investigate ang doctrina sa catholico you will learn na dili kaayo ingon ana ka descriptive ang beliefs bahin ani hehehe...wa gani klaro nga description ang Bible bahin ining Heaven ug Hell sa, Dante was only trying to symbolically described the level of sins and there fitting punishment..lantaw puno kaayo ug mga prominent figures ang iyang story good and evil people.

Sama ra gud sa myth bahin sa catholic inquisition medyo na-bloated na kaayo ang mga story ug facts niini..imagine millions of millions daw ang biktima hehehe...asus kwentaha kung pila ang rate sa patyon sa mga church per year para ma-achieve na nga figures hehe...

lisod man jud gud kaayo tuohan ning purgatoryo bro. ka baga sa Bible ah daghan kaayog gisuwat nga paagi para maluwas ang tawo grabe napud nakalimtan nilag suwat ning purgatoryo kung importante jud ni sa kaluwasan sa tawo.

[regnauld]

[QUOTE=dartzed;5755732]

ah okies so how is this processing done, of course not literally as you said, right?..

A cleansing process just like what St.John of the cross described in his book "THE DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL" which is full of symbolism and allegory! Now you have to read his spiritual classic recognized by Theosophists and other masters in other religions. Also try reading the book of St. Teresa of Avila "THE INTERIOR CASTLE" which describes the levels of consciousness of man from the lowest to the highest in becoming ONE WITH GOD which is also recognized by most masters in all religions as universal in essence!

[vahnhelsing]

Pangutana ngano gi apil mana later sa Roman Catholic Church during the first council of trent ?

palihug intawn tubaga ni ninyo para malamdagan atong mga panghunahuna...

[amingb]

palihug intawn tubaga ni ninyo para malamdagan atong mga panghunahuna...

Wa may ning tubag oi ... ako nalang aron malamdagan ang uban ...

The Roman Catholic Church did not officially canonize the Apocrypha until the Council of Trent (1546 AD). This was in part because the Apocrypha contained material which supported certain Catholic doctrines, such as purgatory, praying for the dead, and the treasury of merit.

[dartzed]

St. Jerome Wrote this :

"As, then, the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it read these two volumes for the edification of the people, not to give authority to doctrines of the Church."

Since Apocryphal is not Inspired by God Therefore it is not part of the Scripture .... wala na siya authority to church doctrines.

Yes dili lang maccabees but the source of it all is maccabees ... now kanang ilaha interpretation on the canonical books regarding purgatory is a wrong interpretation.[/

hmmmmm yuna bro hap murag misinformed jud ka bro let me guide you from the making of the bible based on history.

Jew mao ni cla ang tag.iya sa tanan scriptures bro they hold more books than the 39 books we used today, these books includes tobit, judith, baruch, wisdom, sirach 1,2,3, 4 maccabees, parts of esther and daniel. 1 esdra, the prayer of manasseh, 151 psalm. these books were translated in greek by the 70 rabbis the compilation of books was named the septuagint(means the 70 named after the 70 rabbis who translated it) to serve those greek speaking jews. during the time of christ the sepuagint is widely used, nigawas ang apostoles ug uban pah ang ila gibasehan ang sepuagint writtings.

because of the difference between the hebrew and setuagint(greek tranlated) text modern scholars agreed that 300 out of the 350 references to the old testament found in the new testament were made by the septuagint so mao nang nahimo ang OLD TESTAMENT.

60 years after the pentecost the jewish council of jamnia90-95 AD set the jewish cannon they said that the prophecy ended up in the time of ezra. any writting after that was discarded mao nang nahimo ang 39 books cannon parehas sa inyo bible. ang gidiscard ang tobit, judith, baruch, wisdom, sirach 1,2,3, 4 maccabees, parts of esther and daniel. 1 esdra, the prayer of manasseh, 151 psalm hmmmmm the reason?.. kay kana sila nga books ni strongly testifies man nga si Jesus was the Messiah..

so tanan writtings during christ and so on was not accepted by the Jewish council hmmmmm apil ang raba ang NEW TESTAMENT. this time nahimo ang christians ila girecover ang 7 books nga gidiscard sa mga Jews ug giapil sa old testament..

after 300 years nigawas ang damasus decree list 27 sa new testament sa old testament 46 books this includes the 39 books plus ang 7 books. damasus said any books nga wala sa iya lista maoy APOCRYPHAL..lolz then gi confirm sa councils Hippo 393AD, Cathage 397AD, Pope Clement I 405AD, Carthage 419AD, Florence 1442, Trent 1546.. and here nahimo ang OLD ug NEW testament nga bible na jud..

ni abot ang reformation nigawas si M. Luther iya giusab ang bible gikuha nsad niya ang 7 books kay wala man mufit sa iya theology. <<--- dre nagstart ang protestants

although with doubt st. Jerome translated the bible but iya giapil ang 7 books kay nituo man cya ani. (2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice)

ako pangutana: on what authority do protenstant have to change the scripture?.. deli man ang RC ang nagchange sa bible nangulekta raman cla..hehehe

[ick]

hmmmmm yuna bro hap murag misinformed jud ka bro let me guide you from the making of the bible based on history.

Jew mao ni cla ang tag.iya sa tanan scriptures bro they hold more books than the 39 books we used today, these books includes tobit, judith, baruch, wisdom, sirach 1,2,3, 4 maccabees, parts of esther and daniel. 1 esdra, the prayer of manasseh, 151 psalm. these books were translated in greek by the 70 rabbis the compilation of books was named the septuagint(means the 70 named after the 70 rabbis who translated it) to serve those greek speaking jews. during the time of christ the sepuagint is widely used, nigawas ang apostoles ug uban pah ang ila gibasehan ang sepuagint writtings.

because of the difference between the hebrew and setuagint(greek tranlated) text modern scholars agreed that 300 out of the 350 references to the old testament found in the new testament were made by the septuagint so mao nang nahimo ang OLD TESTAMENT.

60 years after the pentecost the jewish council of jamnia90-95 AD set the jewish cannon they said that the prophecy ended up in the time of ezra. any writting after that was discarded mao nang nahimo ang 39 books cannon parehas sa inyo bible. ang gidiscard ang tobit, judith, baruch, wisdom, sirach 1,2,3, 4 maccabees, parts of esther and daniel. 1 esdra, the prayer of manasseh, 151 psalm hmmmmm the reason?.. kay kana sila nga books ni strongly testifies man nga si Jesus was the Messiah..

so tanan writtings during christ and so on was not accepted by the Jewish council hmmmmm apil ang raba ang NEW TESTAMENT. this time nahimo ang christians ila girecover ang 7 books nga gidiscard sa mga Jews ug giapil sa old testament..

after 300 years nigawas ang damasus decree list 27 sa new testament sa old testament 46 books this includes the 39 books plus ang 7 books. damasus said any books nga wala sa iya lista maoy APOCRYPHAL..lolz then gi confirm sa councils Hippo 393AD, Cathage 397AD, Pope Clement I 405AD, Carthage 419AD, Florence 1442, Trent 1546.. and here nahimo ang OLD ug NEW testament nga bible na jud..

ni abot ang reformation nigawas si M. Luther iya giusab ang bible gikuha nsad niya ang 7 books kay wala man mufit sa iya theology. <<--- dre nagstart ang protestants

although with doubt st. Jerome translated the bible but iya giapil ang 7 books kay nituo man cya ani. (2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice)

ako pangutana: on what authority do protenstant have to change the scripture?.. deli man ang RC ang nagchange sa bible nangulekta raman cla..hehehe

^asa man imong tuhuan ang tudlo ni Jesus Christ na you will only be saved through him and him alone? or i-apil nimo ang tudlo sa deuterocanonicals nga contradictory (praying for the dead, purgatory, indulgences, og uban pa which can save you from sin kuno) kaayo sa teaching ni Jesus Christ?

That is why Martin Luther considered the deuterocanonicals as an abomination and should not be a part of God's word.

Martin Luther's authority stems from God himself to truthfully reveal what his word is. Naka-basa ba ka ni ingon si Jesus Christ nga "go pray for the dead or if you sin pay indulgences to the church and you will be saved". WALA. Kay iyang gisulti siya ra ang way to everlasting life.

[dartzed]

^asa man imong tuhuan ang tudlo ni Jesus Christ na you will only be saved through him and him alone? or i-apil nimo ang tudlo sa deuterocanonicals nga contradictory (praying for the dead, purgatory, indulgences, og uban pa which can save you from sin kuno) kaayo sa teaching ni Jesus Christ?

u start it here 9 na cla kabuok if naa kay time please do watch it para matubag ka ana..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk-Ck...eature=related

That is why Martin Luther considered the deuterocanonicals as an abomination and should not be a part of God's word.

Martin Luther's authority stems from God himself to truthfully reveal what his word is. Naka-basa ba ka ni ingon si Jesus Christ nga "go pray for the dead or if you sin pay indulgences to the church and you will be saved". WALA. Kay iyang gisulti siya ra ang way to everlasting life.

hmmmmmm mao btaw nang nalibugan sad sa RC until the time ila gireopen ang study about it..
watch the video i think it's in part 5 or 6 or maybe ahead pa jud..

"Martin Luther's authority stems from God himself to truthfully reveal what his word is" <<---- i dont think so. iya gitangtang ug apil ang book of james ba to para musupport lang sa iya study, changing dogmatic and scriptural txt is not God's sevant, thats the reason why lain2x na ang interpretation sa mga bible krn.. for pila ka years nagamit ang 1st Christians(Roman Christians ug Orthodox Christians) sa same scripture until he came.

[amingb]

hmmmmm yuna bro hap murag misinformed jud ka bro let me guide you from the making of the bible based on history.

Jew mao ni cla ang tag.iya sa tanan scriptures bro they hold more books than the 39 books we used today, these books includes tobit, judith, baruch, wisdom, sirach 1,2,3, 4 maccabees, parts of esther and daniel. 1 esdra, the prayer of manasseh, 151 psalm. these books were translated in greek by the 70 rabbis the compilation of books was named the septuagint(means the 70 named after the 70 rabbis who translated it) to serve those greek speaking jews. during the time of christ the sepuagint is widely used, nigawas ang apostoles ug uban pah ang ila gibasehan ang sepuagint writtings.

because of the difference between the hebrew and setuagint(greek tranlated) text modern scholars agreed that 300 out of the 350 references to the old testament found in the new testament were made by the septuagint so mao nang nahimo ang OLD TESTAMENT.

60 years after the pentecost the jewish council of jamnia90-95 AD set the jewish cannon they said that the prophecy ended up in the time of ezra. any writting after that was discarded mao nang nahimo ang 39 books cannon parehas sa inyo bible. ang gidiscard ang tobit, judith, baruch, wisdom, sirach 1,2,3, 4 maccabees, parts of esther and daniel. 1 esdra, the prayer of manasseh, 151 psalm hmmmmm the reason?.. kay kana sila nga books ni strongly testifies man nga si Jesus was the Messiah..

so tanan writtings during christ and so on was not accepted by the Jewish council hmmmmm apil ang raba ang NEW TESTAMENT. this time nahimo ang christians ila girecover ang 7 books nga gidiscard sa mga Jews ug giapil sa old testament..

after 300 years nigawas ang damasus decree list 27 sa new testament sa old testament 46 books this includes the 39 books plus ang 7 books. damasus said any books nga wala sa iya lista maoy APOCRYPHAL..lolz then gi confirm sa councils Hippo 393AD, Cathage 397AD, Pope Clement I 405AD, Carthage 419AD, Florence 1442, Trent 1546.. and here nahimo ang OLD ug NEW testament nga bible na jud..

ni abot ang reformation nigawas si M. Luther iya giusab ang bible gikuha nsad niya ang 7 books kay wala man mufit sa iya theology. <<--- dre nagstart ang protestants

although with doubt st. Jerome translated the bible but iya giapil ang 7 books kay nituo man cya ani. (2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice)

ako pangutana: on what authority do protenstant have to change the scripture?.. deli man ang RC ang nagchange sa bible nangulekta raman cla..hehehe

wala mana gi change ang Bible sa protestant parihas raman na sa Catholic Bible gihapon ( canon ) ... wala namay problema ang canonical kay parihas raman siguro tanan version ana nga gigamit karon .... ang Problema lang ang Apocryphal Books raman kay gi apil sa RC nga wala man unta na.... st. jerome also translated the apocryphal books but according to Him dili angay basihan as doctrine sa church.

"Apocrypha--that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy Scriputres, and yet are profitable and good to read." Marthin Luther

Ang Statement ni Marthin Luther ug St. Jerome is like parihas ra.

"As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine."

Jerome


"What advantage then hath the Jew?...Much every way: chiefly, because unto them were committed the oracles (words) of God" (Romans 3:1,2).

So that is why ang Canon is the The Only Accepted as Bible since it is written Original in Hebrew. The Apocryphal Book are written in Greeks and not part of the Masoretic Text.

Ingon ka ang New Testament not Accepted by the Jew .. Tinood na .... Why ? obvious kaau because they dont believe in Jesus.

New Testament is Originally written in Hebrew .... so walay mahimo ang mga Jew its part of the Bible ... pero gihuguma gihapon sila sa Ginoo.

[dartzed]

wala mana gi change ang Bible sa protestant parihas raman na sa Catholic Bible gihapon ( canon ) ... wala namay problema ang canonical kay parihas raman siguro tanan version ana nga gigamit karon .... ang Problema lang ang Apocryphal Books raman kay gi apil sa RC nga wala man unta na.... st. jerome also translated the apocryphal books but according to Him dili angay basihan as doctrine sa church.

"Apocrypha--that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy Scriputres, and yet are profitable and good to read." Marthin Luther

Ang Statement ni Marthin Luther ug St. Jerome is like parihas ra.

"As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine."

Jerome


"What advantage then hath the Jew?...Much every way: chiefly, because unto them were committed the oracles (words) of God" (Romans 3:1,2).

So that is why ang Canon is the The Only Accepted as Bible since it is written Original in Hebrew. The Apocryphal Book are written in Greeks and not part of the Masoretic Text.

Ingon ka ang New Testament not Accepted by the Jew .. Tinood na .... Why ? obvious kaau because they dont believe in Jesus.

hmmmmmm what if those 7 books are connected with those in the NEW TESTAMENT mao nang gikaykay nag balik sa early christian..

kay i can provide you some passages nga prophesized of the 7 books nga present sa NEW TESTAMENT thats why giapil na sa early christians..

deli parehas si luther ug st jerome bro:

st. jerome although naa cya doubt pagtranslate niya but wala jud cya gikuha unlike M. luther.. kaw daw tarong banang tangtangon nimo ang book of james sa NEW TESTAMENT? that's violation both doctrinal and scriptural.

the new testament was not written in hebrew but in greek, bcn ang old testament bro imo pasabot.

[amingb]

hmmmmmm what if those 7 books are connected with those in the NEW TESTAMENT mao nang gikaykay nag balik sa early christian..

kay i can provide you some passages nga prophesized of the 7 books nga present sa NEW TESTAMENT thats why giapil na sa early christians..

deli parehas si luther ug st jerome bro:

st. jerome although naa cya doubt pagtranslate niya but wala jud cya gikuha unlike M. luther.. kaw daw tarong banang tangtangon nimo ang book of james sa NEW TESTAMENT? that's violation both doctrinal and scriptural.

the new testament was not written in hebrew but in greek, bcn ang old testament bro imo pasabot.

Unya ang book of james wala diay na karon sa Canon nga naa man ... problema na ni Luther ...

naa ko na read ang nga prophesied but daghan wala ka uyon sa interpretation kay e apil jud nila.

bisan kaykayon pana nila ... new testament according sa uban is written daw in Greek but actually it is originally in Hebrew.

Even the Church Fathers attest to this over and over again:

Papias (150-170 C.E.) Matthew composed the words in the Hebrew dialect, and each translated as he was able. (quoted by Eusebius Eccl. Hist. 3:39)

Ireneus (170 C.E.) Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect. (Irenaeus; Against Heresies 3:1)

Origen (c. 210 C.E.) The first [Gospel] is written according to Matthew, the same that was once a tax collector, but afterwards an emissary of Yeshua the Messiah, who having published it for the Jewish believers, wrote it in Hebrew. (quoted by Eusebius; Eccl. Hist. 6:25)

Eusebius (c. 315 C.E.) Matthew also, having first proclaimed the Gospel in Hebrew, when on the point of going also to the other nations, committed it to writing in his native tongue, and thus supplied the want of his presence to them by his writings. (Eusebius; Eccl. Hist. 3:24)

Epiphanius (370 C.E.) They [the Nazarenes] have the Gospel according to Matthew quite complete in Hebrew, for this Gospel is certainly still preserved among them as it was first written, in Hebrew letters. (Epiphanius; Panarion 29:9:4)

Jerome (382 C.E.) "Matthew, who is also Levi, and from a tax collector came to be an emissary first of all evangelists composed a Gospel of Messiah in Judea in the Hebrew language and letters, for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed, who translated it into Greek is not sufficiently ascertained. Furthermore, the Hebrew itself is preserved to this day in the library at Caesarea, which the martyr Pamphilus so diligently collected. I also was allowed by the Nazarenes who use this volume in the Syrian city of Borea to copy it. In which is to be remarked that, wherever the evangelist... makes use of the testimonies

It is undisputable! Of course it was written in Hebrew, as was anything else during that time that was considered Holy. It was all written in Mishnaic Hebrew.