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  1. #111

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    Good schmuck...u've got the IDEA...

  2. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    bad things happen so that we can have the chance to do good?

    Guess I should look forward to the next calamity then. So I can have the chance to do good.
    Ooh sarcasm. This should be fun. Do you have an answer for it?

  3. #113

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    belief is not a matter of choice but conviction.

  4. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    bad things happen so that we can have the chance to do good?

    Guess I should look forward to the next calamity then. So I can have the chance to do good.
    let the bodies hit the floor then. lolz

  5. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by seven_segment View Post
    aws...usik page? hehe...imo jud ko patubagan sadeeq...

    question lang daan sayop naman sad...

    why is the bible created 300 years after the death of Jesus? -->created? the bible is a compilation...
    the OLD Testament existed already...New Testament is all about Jesus!

    why Jesus didnt preach through bible? --> He preached! he uses the scripture...
    diba Maliq nagstudy man ka sa Bible? What did Jesus said to the devil when He was tempted?

    On the New Testament...its all about Jesus! Jesus was preaching about Himself already...

    enlightened us --> are you sure you want to be enlightened?

    There was no sacred book known as "bible" before 300 A.D sir. What they had was Torah for the Jews and different letters allegedly written by Apostles for the Christians.

    Nowhere in Christian and bible history where you find a record that the bible( Torah and selected manuscripts compilation ) existed before the Council of N.

    So HopeforJana's question is correct,when she said 'why the bible was CREATED? Yes it is a compilation of letters and books but the Bible itself as a whole was Created.


    Jesus quoted the Torah and not the bible w/c later on included in the creation of the Bible.


    Jesus in the New Testament was preaching about the kingdom of God.

  6. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by tatakalz View Post
    brother Malic, Im not really good on this but heres my poor attempt..


    Author Date Written Earliest Copy Time Span Copies (extent)

    Secular Manuscripts:
    Herodotus (History) 480 - 425 BC 900 AD 1,300 years 8
    Thucydides (History) 460 - 400 BC 900 AD 1,300 years ?
    Aristotle (Philosopher) 384 - 322 BC 1,100 AD 1,400 years 5
    Caesar (History) 100 - 44 BC 900 AD 1,000 years 10
    Pliny (History) 61 - 113 AD 850 AD 750 years 7
    Suetonius (Roman History) 70 - 140 AD 950 AD 800 years ?
    Tacitus (Greek History) 100 AD 1,100 AD 1,000 years 20

    Biblical Manuscripts: (note: these are individual manuscripts)
    Magdalene Ms (Matthew 26) 1st century 50-60 AD co-existant (?)
    John Rylands (John) 90 AD 130 AD 40 years
    Bodmer Papyrus II (John) 90 AD 150-200 AD 60-110 years
    Chester Beatty Papyri (N.T.) 1st century 200 AD 150 years
    Diatessaron by Tatian (Gospels) 1st century 200 AD 150 years
    Codex Vaticanus (Bible) 1st century 325-350 AD 275-300 years
    Codex Sinaiticus (Bible) 1st century 350 AD 300 years
    Codex Alexandrinus (Bible) 1st century 400 AD 350 years


    What one notices almost immediately from the table is that the New Testament manuscript copies which we possess today were compiled very early, a number of them hundreds of years before the earliest copy of a secular manuscript. This not only shows the importance the early Christians gave to preserving their scriptures, but the enormous wealth we have today for early Biblical documentation.

    What is even more significant however, are the differences in time spans between the original manuscripts and the copies of both the biblical and secular manuscripts. It is well known in historical circles that the closer a document can be found to the event it describes the more credible it is. The time span for the biblical manuscript copies listed above are all within 350 years of the originals, some as early as 130-250 years and one even purporting to coexist with the original (i.e. the Magdalene Manuscript fragments of Matthew 26), while the time span for the secular manuscript copies are much greater, between 750-1,400 years! This indeed gives enormous authority to the biblical manuscript copies, as no other ancient piece of literature can make such close time comparisons.

    Because of its importance to our discussion here a special note needs to be given to the Magdalene Manuscript mentioned above. Until two years ago, the oldest assumed manuscript which we possessed was the St. John papyrus (P52), housed in the John Rylands museum in Manchester, and dated at 120 AD (Time April 26, 1996, pg.. Thus, it was thought that the earliest New Testament manuscript could not be corroborated by eyewitnesses to the events. That assumption has now changed, for three even older manuscripts, one each from the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke have now been dated earlier than the Johannine account. It is two of these three findings which I believe will completely change the entire focus of the critical debate on the authenticity of the Bible. Let me explain.

    The Lukan papyrus, situated in a library in Paris has been dated to the late 1st century or early 2nd century, so it predates the John papyrus by 20-30 years (Time April 26, 1996, pg.. But of more importance are the manuscript findings of Mark and Matthew! New research which has now been uncovered by Dr. Carsten Thiede, and is published in his newly released book on the subject, the Jesus Papyrus mentions a fragment from the book of Mark found among the Qumran scrolls (fragment 7Q5) showing that it was written sometime before 68 AD It is important to remember that Christ died in 33 AD, so this manuscript could have been written, at the latest, within 35 years of His death; possibly earlier, and thus during the time that the eyewitnesses to that event were still alive!

    The most significant find, however, is a manuscript fragment from the book of Matthew (chapt.26) called the Magdalene Manuscript which has been analysed by Dr. Carsten Thiede, and also written up in his book The Jesus Papyrus. Using a sophisticated analysis of the handwriting of the fragment by employing a special state-of-the-art microscope, he differentiated between 20 separate micrometer layers of the papyrus, measuring the height and depth of the ink as well as the angle of the stylus used by the scribe. After this analysis Thiede was able to compare it with other papyri from that period; notably manuscripts found at Qumran (dated to 58 AD), another at Herculaneum (dated prior to 79 AD), a further one from the fortress of Masada (dated to between 73/74 AD), and finally a papyrus from the Egyptian town of Oxyrynchus. The Magdalene Manuscript fragments matches all four, and in fact is almost a twin to the papyrus found in Oxyrynchus, which bears the date of 65/66 AD Thiede concludes that these papyrus fragments of St. Matthew's Gospel were written no later than this date and probably earlier. That suggests that we either have a portion of the original gospel of Matthew, or an immediate copy which was written while Matthew and the other disciples and eyewitnesses to the events were still alive. This would be the oldest manuscript portion of our Bible in existence today, one which co-exists with the original writers!

    To be fair:

    So what comparisons are there between the manuscript evidence for the Qur'an and the Bible? We know from the historical record that by the end of the seventh century the Arabs had expanded right across North Africa and up into Spain, and east as far as India. The Qur'an (according to later Islamic tradition) was the centrepiece of their faith and practice at that time. Certainly within that enormous sphere of influence there should therefore be some Qur'anic manuscripts which still exist till this day. Yet, there is nothing from that period at all. The only manuscripts which Islam provides turn out to have been compiled in the ninth century, while the earliest corroborated manuscript is dated 790 A.D., written not 1400 years ago as Muslims claim but a mere 1,200 years ago.

    While Christianity can claim more than 5,300 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, 10,000 Latin Vulgates and at least 9,300 other early versions, adding up to over 24,000 corroborated New Testament manuscripts still in existence (McDowell 1990:43-55), most of which were written between 25-400 years after the death of Christ (or between the 1st and 5th centuries) (McDowell 1972:39-49), Islam cannot provide a single manuscript until well into the eighth century (Lings & Safadi 1976:17; Schimmel 1984:4-6).

    If the Christians could retain so many thousands of ancient manuscripts, all of which were written long before the Qur'an, at a time when paper had not yet been introduced, forcing the dependency on papyrus which disintegrated with age, then one wonders why the Muslims are not able to forward a single manuscript from this much later period, during which the Qur'an was supposedly revealed? This indeed gives the Bible a much stronger claim for reliability than the Qur'an.

    (Im not favoring someone, but it make sense)


    Sir review the question again.

    What qualifies a manuscript as 'inspired scriptures' ?

    you see sir, before the compilation of what is known today as New Testament, the Christian community specially the one created by Paul had different copies and numbers of manuscript.

    One Church had Mark's gospel the other one had Barnabas gospel. Some Churches rejected the Pauline epistles others only had the letter that was specifically addressed to them.

    Came the Council of N. Bishops were called to convened by the authority of Constantine who after converted to Christianity murdered his son,wife, and some of his relatives.

    Then the Bishops went through heated debates, the house were divided because some prefers one manuscript over the others as the inspired word of God. In other words the Bishops had no idea and were confused as to what is to be considered as inspired or not.

    The scenario went crazy the game of politics started to play a bishop was poisoned to death because he was considered as a pain in the ass for the trinitarian.


    The creation of the bible did not happened smoothly sir, nga ni agree dayon sila nga mao ni ang dapat e include sa new testament then mao ni dapat ang atong doktirna as christians, no sir...that did not happened, gubot kaayo sila. hehe.


    so let us go back to my question...scroll up.


    I would love to give a kritik sa imo gi post sir but wala man gud na igo sa topic nato, so let us follow the flow sa sir.
    Last edited by Malic; 07-13-2009 at 08:07 AM.

  7. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    Ok, so that's your answer to #6. Bad things happen so that we have the opportunity to to show our good sides?

    amirite? or amirong?

    Bad things do happen.. but why blame it on God for allowing it??! its basically us, the people, who allow bad things to happen. and then heroes arise.. a chance for heroes to shine..

    people are dumb, persons are not.

  8. #118

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    maoba boss reg.......................

  9. #119

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    its basically us, the people, who allow bad things to happen.
    Hey who allowed that landslide in leyte, we should sue him.

  10. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugak_79 View Post
    Ooh sarcasm. This should be fun. Do you have an answer for it?
    Murphy's Law. Bad things happen because they can.

    No 'to know our wickedness', no 'chance to do good', or so 'we can learn from them' or any other chuchu

    Bad things happen to let the world know our wickedness
    No. They didn't happen so that we would know our wickedness. They just happened. Whether we learn from it or not is a different story. Don't make the ignorance of our wickedness the reason why bad things happen.

    Yes we should learn from them, but saying they happened for us to get something out from them is pompous. Naa ra na sa pagstructure sa imo sentence. I hope nakasabot ka sa akong point.

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