Symposium about Islam

[Gwynhuever]

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@tribu...women are lacking in intellect...mao ba bro....

[Malic]

o, by the way, i remember a hadith that says:

"I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious, sensible man could be led astray by some of you.' The women asked: 'O Allah's Apostle, what is deficient in our intelligence and religion?' He said: 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said: 'This is the deficiency of your intelligence' ... 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said: 'This is the deficiency in your religion."

well, most converts are women and to allah's apostle, women are lacking in intellect, so allah's apostle might be right after all. so cheers, he is very correct. and michael hart too. they are very correct in saying that muhamad/islam were able to victimized so many people to believe in his self-proclaimed prophethood because their converts are mostly women and women are lacking in intellect.

ah, quoting a single hadeeth to support a baseless proposition. Why dont you quote all the hadeeths that speak about women and you'll be surprise to see that women has a great place in islam. I believe that when The Prophet said this during that time women has no real access to education therefore the prophet was just telling a fact.

I already said,that most converts are women,therefore it only shows that there is no maltreatment of women in islam.

You see my friend before islam,women were treated badly,when The Prophet came he changed all that.


Here is a video for you to see...a british woman judge specialising in taking cases for abuse women converts to islam.

YouTube - British Judge converts to Islam 1/6
YouTube - British Judge converts to Islam 2/6
YouTube - British Judge converts to Islam 3/6
YouTube - British Judge converts to Islam 4/6
YouTube - British Judge converts to Islam 5/6


Dont forget what Mr.Hart also said.

[Malic]

malic....na ko questions about islam ....unsa man basis ngano dehado man kaayo ang women sa islamic laws? e.g. sa Saudi Arabia ...abaya to the max jud...nya dili puede mo pakita ang women to other men gawas sa ila husband, brothers and father....also dependent jud ayo ang women to a man kay walay freedom to open bank accounts, etc etc

mam dili baya dehado ang women sa arabia mam. kanang ilang pag cover up sa ilang lawas ug face,religious duty na nila mam to uphold dignity and modesty.


for more information about women in islam go to this site.

Muslim Women's Topics

[Gwynhuever]

^^ i see...pero mas maayo unta no kon way pugsanay...if choice nila mag abaya or not...pero as i see it ..wa man sila choice ...kay shameful or sinful man if mag tuman sa ila gusto...

anyway grabe man ka low ang women sa saudi arabia....even male servants will refuse to obey the mistress of the house...moingon man "i do not take orders from a woman".....unsa may basis sad ana bro....sa saudi lang ba ni nahitabo ...or generally maoy gi tudlo sa islam nga wa juy karapatan tawon ang women....

[joserizal]

sir malic,

i was not able to come. some important matters attended.

truly,

nasyo

[tribu]

@tribu...women are lacking in intellect...mao ba bro....

i didn't say that. allah's apostle said that.

ah, quoting a single hadeeth to support a baseless proposition. Why dont you quote all the hadeeths that speak about women and you'll be surprise to see that women has a great place in islam. I believe that when The Prophet said this during that time women has no real access to education therefore the prophet was just telling a fact.

I already said,that most converts are women,therefore it only shows that there is no maltreatment of women in islam.

You see my friend before islam,women were treated badly,when The Prophet came he changed all that.


Here is a video for you to see...a british woman judge specialising in taking cases for abuse women converts to islam.

YouTube - British Judge converts to Islam 1/6
YouTube - British Judge converts to Islam 2/6
YouTube - British Judge converts to Islam 3/6
YouTube - British Judge converts to Islam 4/6
YouTube - British Judge converts to Islam 5/6


Dont forget what Mr.Hart also said.

LOLZ

naa man gani judge na mutuo ug dewende ug inig decide niya sa kaso mu-consult usa sya sa mga dewende. ambot unsa kaha hitsura anang mga dewendeha ug topnotcher pa gyud to na judge. pero nindot kaayo kay naa syay mga kaistorya na dewende.

but then again. it's a british woman judge. and we must remember what allah's apostle said about women's intellect. and also she's british.

mam dili baya dehado ang women sa arabia mam. kanang ilang pag cover up sa ilang lawas ug face,religious duty na nila mam to uphold dignity and modesty.


for more information about women in islam go to this site.

Muslim Women's Topics

ah, mao diay...

Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers.

In a rare criticism of the kingdom's powerful "mutaween" police, the Saudi media has accused them of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire on Monday.

About 800 pupils were inside the school in the holy city of Mecca when the tragedy occurred.

15 girls died in the blaze and more than 50 others were injured

According to the al-Eqtisadiah daily, firemen confronted police after they tried to keep the girls inside because they were not wearing the headscarves and abayas (black robes) required by the kingdom's strict interpretation of Islam.

One witness said he saw three policemen "beating young girls to prevent them from leaving the school because they were not wearing the abaya".

The Saudi Gazette quoted witnesses as saying that the police - known as the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice - had stopped men who tried to help the girls and warned "it is a sinful to approach them".

The father of one of the dead girls said that the school watchman even refused to open the gates to let the girls out.

"Lives could have been saved had they not been stopped by members of the Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice," the newspaper concluded.

Relatives' anger

Families of the victims have been incensed over the deaths.

Most of the victims were crushed in a stampede as they tried to flee the blaze.

The school was locked at the time of the fire - a usual practice to ensure full segregation of the sexes.

The religious police are widely feared in Saudi Arabia. They roam the streets enforcing dress codes and *** segregation, and ensuring prayers are performed on time.

Those who refuse to obey their orders are often beaten and sometimes put in jail.

BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue

kabasa mo sa naka-underline, islam gyud lagi nag-ingon na kinahanglan sila mag-abaya, bahala na sila mangamatay basta kinahanglan mag-abaya gyud sila kay to protect their dignity man daw. aw, allah is merciful man gud daw mao siguro gipatay nalang ang 15girls.

[Malic]

i didn't say that. allah's apostle said that.



LOLZ

naa man gani judge na mutuo ug dewende ug inig decide niya sa kaso mu-consult usa sya sa mga dewende. ambot unsa kaha hitsura anang mga dewendeha ug topnotcher pa gyud to na judge. pero nindot kaayo kay naa syay mga kaistorya na dewende.

but then again. it's a british woman judge. and we must remember what allah's apostle said about women's intellect.

O naa napod ka mo generalize napod tsk tsk. Kuwang jud ka brod. no offense ha. So tungod kay motoo ning judge ug duwende boot pasabot tanang judge mga amaw amaw ug supertitious? kuwang jud ka gamay da.

Ah so in other words you believe that this woman judge who received a better education than the women during the time of The Prophet are equal in intelligence? LOLZ.

sir lahi na karun oi,saunang panahon wala to silay access sa education karun naa na,ikaw noh,bisan asa napod lupad ng imong utok.

[tribu]

O naa napod ka mo generalize napod tsk tsk. Kuwang jud ka brod. no offense ha. So tungod kay motoo ning judge ug duwende boot pasabot tanang judge mga amaw amaw ug supertitious? kuwang jud ka gamay da.

Ah so in other words you believe that this woman judge who received a better education than the women during the time of The Prophet are equal in intelligence? LOLZ.

sir lahi na karun oi,saunang panahon wala to silay access sa education karun naa na,ikaw noh,bisan asa napod lupad ng imong utok.

LOLZ

asa man mabasa sa statement nako na ingon ko tanan judge mutuo ug dewende.

LOLZ

sige daw asa man mabasa na niingon ko tanan judge supertitious?

[Malic]

LOLZ

asa man mabasa sa statement nako na ingon ko tanan judge mutuo ug dewende.

LOLZ

sige daw asa man mabasa na niingon ko tanan judge supertitious?

Sir basaha usab akong gisulti sir di ba naa toy question mark. Kung naa gani question mark sir,its either imong e deny or imo e affirm kung tinood ba akong pagsabot.

Aw unsa diay pasabot nimo atong duwende duwende?

[tribu]

Sir basaha usab akong gisulti sir di ba naa toy question mark. Kung naa gani question mark sir,its either imong e deny or imo e affirm kung tinood ba akong pagsabot.

Aw unsa diay pasabot nimo atong duwende duwende?

kaklaro ana sabton. kaklaro na kung naay judge na matud pa nimo educated mao nagpaconvert sa islam. naa man pud judge na educated ug topnotcher pero mutuo ug dewende. so, unsay nakalahi ana sa mga dili educated na tao na mutuo ug mga imaginative friends.

aw gusto mo diay tubagon imo question na sa una women are uneducated?

LOLZ

they only became uneducated when muhamad felt threatened by the power of women. remember muhamad was a nobody and khadija was somebody. that is why when khadija died muhamad decided to have some honor for himself so he uses his alter ego allah to rise to power and gain some honor for himself thru deception, raids and terror.

Women in pre-Islamic Arabia


Women in pre-Islamic Arabia


What was life like for women in Arabia before Islam?

Did Islam improve the status of women as Muslim apologists claim?

Or, were women worse off after Islam! To find out we need to look at historical sources, which describe life during the time of Mohammad.

When Islamists refer to the time before the advent of Islam, they describe that time as the Jahiliya which means time of ignorance. There is not a lot known about pre-Islamic Arabs since most of their lore was oral and they did not put much into writing, except for their poetry which survived Islam. They did however abide by traditional laws, which were enforced by public opinion. Bravery in battle, loyalty and generosity were the most prized qualities amongst pagan Arabs. In some tribes women would accompany their men into battle.

The many tribes that inhabited Arabia had diverse customs and cultures, in some, women had low status and were not much better than livestock, in others women enjoyed much freedom and independence which was curbed by the imposition of Islamic laws. At one time most Arab tribes would have been matrilineal, an incident in the “Sirat” sheds some light: two men questioned about their identity say to the Muslims: “we do not follow our mother’s line and disown our father.” This indicates that even in the time of Mohammad there would have existed matrilineal tribes.

Another incident in the “Sirat” (Pg. 59 ) tells us of a woman by the name of Salma d. ‘Amr. On account of the high position she held among her people she would marry on condition that she should retain control of her own affairs. If she disliked a man, she left him. She had a son with Hashim -Hashim was Mohammad's great-grandfather - and Hashim left him with Salma while he was a little boy. It seems that at least some women did have control of their own affairs which included the right to divorce.

Amir B. Zarib is asked to preside as a judge in a case involving a hermaphrodite (pgs 51-52). He is unable to reach a decision and finally he asks his slave girl Sukhayla: “Am I to make him a man or a woman? ” Sukhayla replies: “Good God, merely follow the course of the urinatory process.” Gender was important because a male received double the share of a female. Clearly it was a case involving inheritance. This case was before Mohammad established Islamic laws and it indicates that in some tribes women did receive half the amount of inheritance of males before Islam and not zero inheritance as some Islamists claim, therefore Islam would not have made any improvements in the area of inheritance for women.

A woman proposes marriage to Abdullah (pg.6: “If you will take me you can have as many camels as were sacrificed in your stead”. If pre-Islamic women were mere chattels with no rights they would not have owned camels nor would they have been allowed to propose marriage. In most Islamic countries today, women cannot get married without permission from their male guardian. Khadijah, Mohammad’s first wife, was a wealthy merchant woman who hired men to work for her. Mohammad started out as Khadija’s employee and eventually Khadijah proposed marriage to Mohammad. It’s worth noting that during his marriage to Khadijah, Mohammad did not take other wives, it is possible that Khadijah stipulated in the marriage contract that Mohammad would not marry other women while married to her. On pg.313 we are told that before revelation, Mohammad never opposed Khadijah. Khadijah doesn’t sound like a downtrodden or worthless woman to me! In fact when Islamists want to impress western feminists they always mention Khadijah– what they keep quiet about is the fact that she lived most of her life before Islamic laws were imposed.

Islamists like to point out to the custom of some tribes –notably the Tammin tribe – of burying alive unwanted female infants. In cases of severe hardship such as famine, pagan Arabs would practice infanticide regardless of the gender of the infant. When Mohammad conquers the Meccans he exhorts the women not to kill their children, one woman, Hind d. Utba replies: I brought them up when they were little and you killed them on the day of Badr when they were grown up, so you are the one to know about them.”

Abdul Muttalib knew that death was at hand and summoned his six daughters and said to them: “Compose elegies over me so that I may hear what you are going to say before I die” [pg. 73]. If daughters were so despised in those times why would this man allow them all to live and then ask them to compose eulogies for his death? Today most Muslim women are not permitted to attend funerals, let alone give eulogies in public. On pg 446, we have a man with seven daughters. Surely, if daughters had so little value, these men would not have allowed so many of them to live!

Once two men had a dispute [pg 196]…over a hundred camels, and they appointed an Arab woman diviner arbitrator and she gave judgment in his favor... It sounds that this woman was a judge, yet in the year 2005 Islamists insist that women are not fit to be judges and their testimony is worth half of that of a man’s. Before Islam women were fit to be judges, after Islam a woman’s testimony became half of that of a man’s. See the following article on this Islamic site: http://www.thetruereligion.org/witnesses.htm The excuse is a “scientific explanation” about psychological differences. The Victorians used similar excuses to prevent women from studying medicine, a well known 1848 obstetrical text stated: “She [woman] has a head almost too small for intellect but just big enough for love.” Victorians also believed that intellectual activity had harmful effects on the female reproductive system!

Mohammad sends one of his men - Mu'adh - to the Yaman and instructs him to: "Deal gently and not harshly; announce good news and do not repel people...". Mu'adh arrives to the Yaman and a woman approaches him and asks: "O' companion of God's apostle, what rights has a husband over his wife?" He said: "Woe to you a woman can never fulfil her husband's rights, so do your utmost to fulfil his claims as best as you can." The woman says: By God, if you are the companion of God's apostle you must know what rights a husband has over his wife!" Mu'adh replies: "If you were to go back and find him with his nostrils running with pus and blood and sucked until you got rid of them you would not have fulfilled your obligation." [pg. 644]

Mohammad sends Zaid with forces to attack the B.Fazara tribe. Zaid kills some of them and captures others as prisoners, amongst them a very old woman by the name of Umm Qurfa, he orders one of his men, Zaid to kill her and he does so in a very cruel manner: he ties her legs to two camels and drives them apart so that the unfortunate woman is rent in two. We are told that this woman held a position o honour among her people and the people used to say: "Had you been more powerful than Umm Qirfa you could have done no more." [pg.665] Why did Zaid felt so much threatened by an old woman that he had to have her execute her in such a cruel manner? Was is because she was highly regarded by her people and he wanted to make an examble of her, lest Muslim women get the idea of demanding status and respect?

Abu Sufyan surrenders Mecca to Mohammad without a fight - had he resisted his people would have been massacred by Mohammad’s forces - and the men and women of the Quraysh come to pay homage to Mohammad. Then Mohammad exhorts the women to not commit adultery, one of the women Hind d.Utba, wife of Abu Sufyan, replies: “Does a free woman commit adultery?” (pg.553) It would appear that before Islam the Arabs did not lose much sleep over adultery. It was Mohammad that reinstated the stoning law amongst the Jews which later became enshrined into Islamic law. Stoning does not appear in the Qur’an but it is found in the hadith which are part of Islamic law. Umar, the second caliph proclaimed in his sermon: “The apostle (Mohammad) stoned (adulterers) and we stoned them after him.” On pg 186, Mohammad tells of what he saw when he ascended to heaven: "Then I saw women hanging from their breasts. There were those who fathered bastards on their husbands".

There were other women who opposed Mohammad, Fartana and Asma would compose satiric verses against him and both were killed by Mohammad's men. Asma was killed after condemning the assassination of Abu Afak, an old poet, . After her murder Mohammad said: " Two goats won’t butt their heads about her.

The following is from Mohammad's sermon, the paragraph pertaining to women [pg.651]: "You have rights over your wives and they have rights over you. You have a right that they should not defile your bed and that they should not behave in open unseemliness. If they do, God allows you to put them in separate rooms and to beat them but not with severity. If they refrain from these things they have a right to their food and clothing with kindness. Lay injunctions on women kindly, for they are prisoners with you having no control of their persons."

Today's Muslims do not bury their daughters alive in the physical sense; they bury them alive in the social and intellectual sense. Parents prefer boys, girls receive less education and women are restricted in every aspect of their lives.

However, despite religious and cultural obstacles, in some Islamic countries women have made tremendous achievements, notable in the area of education.

these muslim women today are educated not because of islam but in spite of islam.