Everything about : RH Bill ( Reproductive Health Bill)

[Dorothea]

Oist, murag heated naman kaayo ang discussion. Murag nanga high blood na ang mga pipol.

Mannyamador, I was just wondering about something. You said that life begins at the moment of fertilization, and not implantation. What then is the church's stand about ectopic pregnancy? If we terminate an ectopic pregnancy, would that be considered sinful? Although the fetus has implanted outside the uterus in an ectopic pregnancy, the fetus is still a living, breathing being that will die should doctors decide to terminate an ectopic pregnancy. Ectopic pregnancies are very dangerous to women because as the fetus grows in the fallopian tube, it'll stretch and eventually rupture. The mother can die. Should we kill the fetus to save the mother's life? Or should we just let things fall into place, in which case both the fetus and the mother will die, but at least there's no blood on our hands, and we can rule their deaths as just the consequence of a "freak" pregnancy.

See, the way you talk about "abortifacients" and "abortions" etc etc, you make it seem as if morality is absolute, as if life is linear, as if we exist in a world that is only black and white.

See, I take the PILL. I take it not because I am trying to avoid a pregnancy, but because I was really, really sick for a long time, and the PILL helped me get well. I am Catholic but I don't feel any guilt whatsoever about being on the PILL. I was sick and I prayed for God to heal me, but nothing happened. I suffered for years. I finally decided to seek medical intervention, and I finally decided to help myself. And I don't regret my decision one bit. This is my body, and I will do what I can to alleviate my pain.

And because I am a woman, I know what women go through on a daily basis. I know the pain that goes with being a woman. And I wish the self-righteous, holier-than-thou priests and religious advocates who are MEN can experience even for a day what it feels to be a woman. These men are so quick to condemn, are so quick to judge when they will never ever know how it is to be female.

And that is why I feel so strongly that women need to stand up for themselves, and decide how they want to treat their bodies, and how they want to live their lives. They need to make decisions for them, and not let these MALE priests who are completely clueless make their decisions for them.

If taking the PILL makes me a sinner, then I guess my soul will burn in hell. But at least, while I am still living on this earth, at least I am able to make a choice for myself.

If you ban contraceptives, you are depriving women the freedom to live their lives on their own terms. You can advocate for Natural Family Planning all you want, but to propose a ban on contraceptives?

You may think you're in the right, mannyamador, and all the rest of us are wrong, but to go about it in a way that is so condescending and arrogant, it is quite disgusting. You sound like you're God yourself.

I respect your point of view. But I don't respect how you go about letting people know that view. With every post you make, you get more pompous. You may be right (or at least, you may think you are), but in getting your point across? You are ineffective.

[ronaYo]

@ronayo
CORRUPTION and INJUSTICE cause poverty!

Amen to this manny! I agree with you 100% on this, and to make it clear i never argued with u on this matter...

Try as you might, you just can't seem to provide proof that this is caused by overpopulation! !

Well Yea! Look at this table:
if you wanna see the complete data see this link: Metro Manila - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
--------------------Pop. density(per km²)-----Annual pop. growth rate-----Per capita
Caloocan-------------------22,081 -------------.97-------------------------$8,986
Las Piñas ------------------12,710 ------------1.04 ------------------------$7,978
Makati --------------------16,260 ------------(-.12) -----------------------$21,259
Malabon -------------------21,501 ------------1.13 ------------------------$3,634
Mandaluyong --------------24,731 ------------(-.09) -----------------------$17,258
Manila --------------------41,014 -------------(-.06) ----------------------$7,867
Marikina ------------------11,515 --------------.98 ------------------------$9,786
Muntinlupa ----------------8,122 ---------------1.14 -----------------------$11,215
Navotas ------------------21,393 --------------1.23 -----------------------$4,276
Parañaque ----------------9,432 ---------------.99 ------------------------$8,241
Pasay --------------------18,679 --------------1.43 -----------------------$5,931
Pasig ---------------------16,292 --------------1.32 ----------------------$10,258
Pateros -------------------27,337 -------------1.46------------------------$2,978
Quezon -------------------13,492 --------------.78-------------------------$9,672
San Juan -----------------19,811 --------------.78 ------------------------$13,253
Taguig --------------------9,761 -------------1.09 ------------------------$10,078
Valenzuela ----------------10,889 ------------1.23 ------------------------$6,231

There's Overpopulation in Urban Areas Indeed!
Take the city of manila although it posted a negative growth rate but look at it's pop. desity a staggering 41,014per km²!!! Only Makati and Mandaluyong posted a negative birth rate with a descent pop density/per capita ratio! But still Population Density is Very High!
What is very alarming here is the Overpopulation and Poverty on these Urban Areas! What is certain here is that if these 2 problems goes side by side it spells DISASTER!....
Yes Poverty caused by CORRUPTION and INJUSTICE is a BIG problem! but Overpopulation is another problem that should be dealt separately!
Let's just pass the Reproductive Health Bill (HB5043) and let the public decide!
Diri nto mahibaw-an unsa kakusgan ang simbahan in terms of pagtudlo ug moralidad, ug kung unsa kalawom ang pagtuo sa nga filipinio sa ilang ginoo!.[/QUOTE]

Debatable? Very subjective? Uh,,, you have to prove that. Just claiming they are such doesn't mean they are. But you have been unable to do so. Noa arguments whatsoever, just claims.

Sorry if i don't engage with you on those topics, simply because i think it's a waste of time and effort...
Arguments on those topics are based and are subject to individual/personal beliefs, understanding, interpretation and views... In short I don't believe in your arguments... and you won't believe mine... I've read your past post and other reader's opinions on this matter as well, pros and cons, and i don't see any consensus... Your's is going left, the others is going right, you will argue your points until the infinity, manga-sunggo lang ta di jud ta magkasinabot! The only moment that we will clash is if we throw bombs of insults against each other...

I join ths discussion because I want to refute Tatads data on population GDP per capita kaeklatan eklabus! it's very misleading! How the hell did he/you compare Japan, Germany, Italy, Singapore etc to the Philippines and say we're on a negotiable situation if not better! haaay... Visual pa lang makit-an na ang deperensya....

[cottonmouth]

And because I am a woman, I know what women go through on a daily basis. I know the pain that goes with being a woman. And I wish the self-righteous, holier-than-thou priests and religious advocates who are MEN can experience even for a day what it feels to be a woman. These men are so quick to condemn, are so quick to judge when they will never ever know how it is to be female.

And that is why I feel so strongly that women need to stand up for themselves, and decide how they want to treat their bodies, and how they want to live their lives. They need to make decisions for them, and not let these MALE priests who are completely clueless make their decisions for them.

.

I symphatize with you Dorothea. What you are exactly after is what the state is also after in Article II, Section 12 of the Bill of Rights, ... shall equally protect the life of the mother and the life of the unborn from conception.. Now if we try to be legalistic here, the preservation of ones life is paramount in any legal arguments. This is true in criminal law, this is also true between the mother and the unborn. The right of the woman (the mother) to preserve her life supercedes that of the unborn. The right to life of any woman doesn't only ends after the surgery but it extends to her right to have a healthy motherhood. Healthy motherhood as we know means that she will have good health herself, can provide proper maternal care to her living children and be a pillar of a healthy family. In my case as the man (the father) I will not hesitate to choose the mother to live and have a healthy life over the unborn. In @mannyboy's case, that is still a doubt (poor wife).

BUT, as I have mentioned before, that is the case when there will be necessary abortion: like the ectopic pregnancy case. In the case of contraceptive, it is the right of the woman to choose to use or not to use it. That is the inviolable right of the woman in a democratic society. The RH Bill doesn't mention that it will force the woman and punish her for not using the methods. It even emphasizes in educating the women to the benefits of the method. Educating means explaining the benefit when the method is properly used and the problems when it is not use properly. So Where in your garbage @mannyboy did you get your idea that the state will not explain to the women the possible problems of artificial method.

Again the point here is educating the uninformed masses BUT the Bill will punish the medical practioners who will fail to educate and provide those who are willing about the proper usage of the contraceptives. Why it is needed to punish them? BECAUSE when you work in the government, you are compeled to follow the states mandate otherwise you are violating your oath to office...and you should not work there at all.

We go legalistic and balistic again. ArticleII,Section 6. The separation of Church and State shall be inviolable. This is where also this BS started. You see why SECTION 6 is the most important part of the constitution next to the Bill of Rights? It is because the State and the Church for most of the time look at the different side of the coin and had been fighting against each other for ages. However in a modern society, the church is a subject to the state and cannot therefore use its name to interfere the missions of the state. What the roman catholic church is doing now is the clear violation of Section 6. Why? Because they use the name of the church to advance their cause. REMEMBER the church is made up of people who doesn't necessarily agree with its leaders principle. Simple example: look at the poll above, give and take those voting are 85% roman catholics. And you call the RH Bill proponents the violator of the constitution? Talk about Hypocrisy.

Our constitution was crafted similar to that of the US, UK and France. Did you hear their churches interfere with the business of the state? NO. Surely they have their opinions but they don't have the superiority complex like the churches we have in the Philippines. That is probably one of the reason why we do not progress faster than other developing countries.

The other way I see why this bill is hot as hell, it is because some pride and ego was disturbed: and you know who am refering to...some old men in white robes.

[Dorothea]

^Thanks cottonmouth, and I agree with your post 100%. I couldn't have said it better myself.

And as for mannyamador, I am in awe of his unrelenting passion. And eventhough I have noticed errors again in his posts (re: IUDs, implants), I will not belabor the point. Although I would suggest that he reads up on the cited reference (Drug Facts & Comparisons) in his post, as I suspect he has missed a few pages. LOL

[Dorothea]

@dorothea....quite a read you posted back there...pero bisan ga nosebleed ko basa ...gipugos jud nako ug tiwas oi he he he....ka tropa ta ma'm

anyway ako sad personally i am for the passing of this bill and worse some people might crucify me...kay pro choice man sad ko he he he...na hala lecture ra dayon ko ninyo nga maka sasala ko...di ko maka communion etc etc...kay "pabor" ko ug abortion kay mao man dayon na...if di ka "pro life" ..pro abortion man daw ka...pastilan!

@gwyn, basin malabayan gyud ta'g kamatis tungod sa atong views, or di ba kaha matawgan ta'g evil incarnate. sus pastilan!

Kana ba si mannyamador (bahala'g atong libakon kay dili man na kasabot bisaya), daghan sa iyang mga posts mga sayop gyud, labi na nang iyang mga gipang copy paste nga articles, pero mura'g grade one dili makasabot ug simple explanation. Maka nosebleed gyud. LOL

Kani pud atong mga pari, gisayonan ra uroy sila ug estorya2x anang ing-ana, pasuwayan na nato pa experience dysmenorrhea, or pagpanganak, makatilaw lagi na sila. LOL

[cottonmouth]

NO need to explain further, the people have spoken. Today I rest my case but Please read below.

******

New polls on reproductive health - INQUIRER.net, Philippine News for Filipinos

Social Climate
New polls on reproductive health


By Mahar Mangahas
Philippine Daily Inquirer
First Posted 02:28:00 10/18/2008

MANILA, Philippines—The third quarter 2008 Social Weather Survey, fielded Sept. 24-27, had two modules on the topic of reproductive health (RH), one module of three items done on SWS’ own initiative, and a second module of three items commissioned by the Forum for Family Planning and Development (FFPD), a non-government advocacy group.

Last Tuesday, Social Weather Stations (SWS) sent its own RH report to BusinessWorld newspaper, which exercised its right of first publication on Thursday; SWS uploaded the report on its website that day. Last Wednesday,

The FFPD conducted a press conference to report the findings of its separate module; SWS confirms the FFPD materials presented.

The SWS survey asked six questions on the RH topic, the first three of which were FFPD, and the second three being SWS’ own items. The first four items were a battery of Agree/Disagree (A/D) statements, with two of them phrased in opposition to the Reproductive Health and Population Development (RHPD) bill currently being debated in Congress, and with the two others phrased as affirmative to it. The fifth item asked whether the respondent already knew of the RHPD bill. The sixth item asked if the respondent favored it or not. I believe that the A/D battery, being evenly divided in slant, did not introduce affirmation bias to the succeeding items.

Abortion, distribution of contraceptives, and promiscuity. The first test statement of the A/D battery was the anti-RHPD assertion, “The use of legal contraceptives like condoms, IUDs, and pills can also be considered as abortion.” On this, the survey found 33 percent in agreement, and 50 percent in disagreement, in the Philippines as a whole; the others were undecided.

The second statement of the A/D battery was phrased as pro-RHPD: “There should be a law that requires the government to give away legal contraceptives like condoms, IUDs and pills to people who want to avail [themselves] of them.” (In Tagalog, “Gawing katungkulan ng gobyerno ang pamimigay….”) On this, the survey found a strong 68 percent in agreement and only 15 percent in disagreement.

The third statement of the A/D battery was the anti-RHPD assertion, “If family planning would be included in the school curriculum, the youth would become sexually promiscuous.” (The Tagalog for promiscuous behavior was “ay makikipagtalik nang walang pakundangan.”) On this, the survey found 25 percent in agreement, and majority 54 percent in disagreement.

Thus the FFPD module of the three items clearly shows that most Filipinos reject the “abortion” and “promiscuity” arguments against FP, and also advocate government subsidization of it. To my knowledge, this is the first time that the “abortion” and “promiscuity” assertions have been tested in a Philippine opinion poll.

Family planning education and opinion on the RHPD bill. The fourth and last item of the A/D battery was the pro-RHPD “There should be a law that requires the government to teach family planning to the youth.” On this, the survey found 75 percent in agreement and only 10 percent in disagreement.

Then respondents were informed of the RHPD bill (“… a proposal in the House of Representatives that gives the government the duty to promote responsible parenthood through giving enough information to the people, and having safe, legal, affordable and quality reproductive health care services for people who want it”) and asked if they had heard of it or not. The survey found that 46 percent already knew of it, prior to the survey.

The final question, asked of everyone, was on opinion about the RHPD proposal. The survey found 71 percent in favor, 21 percent undecided, and a mere 8 percent opposed. Among those who originally knew of the bill, the score is 84 percent in favor, and 6 percent opposed. Among those who learned of the bill for the first time because of the survey, the score is 59 percent in favor, versus 11 percent opposed. This suggests that public support will grow as information about the bill spreads further.

Thus the three SWS-initiated items, which were included in our survey agenda as a public service independently of the items commissioned by the FFPD, show very strong public support for government action on reproductive health.

The people are not sheep. Cross-tabulations of the results of both the FFPD-commissioned items and the SWS-initiated items show that Filipino opinion on RH is roughly the same for Catholics and non-Catholics, the same for regular (weekly and up) and irregular churchgoers, and the same for the great many who trust, and the few who distrust, the Catholic church.

These findings are not at all unexpected. A 1991 survey of social attitudes towards FP interest groups, done by SWS for the Philippine Legislators’ Committee on Population and Development, found that “Filipinos do not feel strongly restricted from using family planning methods, either by the rules of their religion, or by the teaching they received in school, or by the advice given by their physicians.”

Filipino interpretation of the teaching of their religion on FP is actually much more permissive than the official teaching of the Catholic church. In 1991, four out of five preferred electoral candidates who favored free choice of FP methods. Analysis of voting intentions showed anti-FP officials in grave risk of not being re-elected.

As Fr. John J. Carroll, S.J., of the Institute of Church and Social Issues, discussant of the SWS study, said: “Although some church officials like to refer to themselves as pastors, in this case the people are not sheep.” (See my book, “The Philippine Social Climate,” Anvil Publishing, 1994, p. 158.)

* * *

Contact SWS: Social Weather Stations or mahar.mangahas@sws.org.ph

[emem525]

ah another addition lang no kay murag overemphasized na man kaayo ang pills and IUD as abortifacients. Just so you know, the IUD is inserted when a woman has her menses. During ha not before nor after but during her menses. No service provider in her right mind will insert an IUD nga wala gi mens ang babae. If she is not menstruating and insists on using the IUD, the medical professional will insist that she undergo a pregnancy test. If negative, the doctor, midwife or nurse will still ask the patient to wait until she has her menses. One reason for this is because the uterus is open while menstruating so when the IUD is inserted, it is inserted properly. Therefore, the IUD cannot be used as an abortifacient kay di man mabdus ang babae when it was inserted. FYI.

[Dorothea]

Hambogero! You think I'm dumb just because you can't fool me with your RH-boladas?

I read these forums to learn, and I was wondering why some of you support the RH bill, and was seeing if I should change my mind. But now I see all of you pro-RH are good for is insulting people who don't agree with you when you can't beat them with good debate. How are you supposed to convince thinking people with your insults? At least the anti-RH and pro-life try hard to give their evidences, even if they are fewer people than you. Look who is being dumb now (sorry for the words, but that is the truth I can see here in this debate)!

And what evidence is that? The "evidence" (if you can call it that) presented was circumstantial at best. And there were in fact quite a few errors made with those claims.

For example, I am dying, just dying for someone to show me some DEFINITIVE, unequivocal EVIDENCE about the incidence of fertilization or even breakthrough ovulation with OCs. Give me the study parameters, give me the specifics, give me the details, give me the guidelines on how the study was conducted. And please, don't include words like ESTIMATE and LIKELY. Those words have no place from a pure scientific standpoint.

[Dorothea]

ah another addition lang no kay murag overemphasized na man kaayo ang pills and IUD as abortifacients. Just so you know, the IUD is inserted when a woman has her menses. During ha not before nor after but during her menses. No service provider in her right mind will insert an IUD nga wala gi mens ang babae. If she is not menstruating and insists on using the IUD, the medical professional will insist that she undergo a pregnancy test. If negative, the doctor, midwife or nurse will still ask the patient to wait until she has her menses. One reason for this is because the uterus is open while menstruating so when the IUD is inserted, it is inserted properly. Therefore, the IUD cannot be used as an abortifacient kay di man mabdus ang babae when it was inserted. FYI.

Emem, daghan kaayo ni bakak si mannyamador bahin aning IUD oi, honestly lang. Gi reference pa ang Drug Facts & Comparisons, nga klaro kaayo didto nga lahi sa iyang estorya nakabutang. Pataka lang hatag hatag reference, siya mismo wala man gani magbasa.

Apil pud anang Depo-Provera ai, taka2x lang pud siya bahin ana. Hilig kaayo mag copy paste ug articles unya wala gyud niya tukia ba kung sakto ba, in any medical lit.

Apil pud anang iyang pang hatag2x nga statistics, sayop pud. Hehehe. Pero kapoyan nako mag type oi.

Ay naa pa diay, apil nang iyang claims sa "mini-pill" ai, naa pud mga sayop2x. Emem, unsa kaha imo na siyang i-lecture sa Pharmacology 101?

LOL

[emem525]

Dorothea: naa mi training on IUD insertion and removal with nurses and doctors this October. Basin ganahan siya mu apil. LOLZZZ....