The Roman Catholic Church~ Questions

[Jhared]

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Wrong. That's what they actually tell you but it's wrong. The belief was already present prior to the council. It was Christianity's core belief until Arius challenged that. It was in the Council of Nicea where the teaching was affirmed and rejected the position of Arius which, history will tell you, came later.

No wrong, that's what they make you believe but that's wrong.. that idea was a consensus amongst bishops, and not really a universal belief amongst them before, because during that time, there was never a universal Christianity, but Christianity was plagued with any kinds of mysticism and gnosticism, Christians had no common bible, just gospels of different versions... so in order to unify Christianity, Bishops devised a universal doctrine, thus came Trinity, and came next the cherry picking of books to be included in a compilation to serve as the universal bible, and their basis for inclusion? Trinity..

[noy]

No wrong, that's what they make you believe but that's wrong.. that idea was a consensus amongst bishops, and not really a universal belief amongst them before, because during that time, there was never a universal Christianity, but Christianity was plagued with any kinds of mysticism and gnosticism, Christians had no common bible, just gospels of different versions... so in order to unify Christianity, Bishops devised a universal doctrine, thus came Trinity, and came next the cherry picking of books to be included in a compilation to serve as the universal bible, and their basis for inclusion? Trinity..

bai,

the early church Fathers or early Christians already held the Trinitarian view on God even before the council of Nicea..

Ignatius of Antioch

"To the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).
"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).



Justin Martyr

"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Theophilus of Antioch

"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus

"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

source: The Trinity | Catholic Answers

feel free to verify with neutral sites or with history concerning the writings of the Church Fathers for you to cross reference..

[Jhared]

bai,

the early church Fathers or early Christians already held the Trinitarian view on God even before the council of Nicea..

Ignatius of Antioch

"To the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).
"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).



Justin Martyr

"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Theophilus of Antioch

"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus

"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

source: The Trinity | Catholic Answers



feel free to verify with neutral sites or with history concerning the writings of the Church Fathers for you to cross reference..

Like i said bay noy, the teaching that god is triune, is only one of those countless beliefs that Christians used to hold, because there was no bible during the time, christians from all over differ in their views, the nicean council did not only battle Arianism, but it also battled with:

Gnostism,
Mysticism,
Ebionism (the belief that jesus was just a messiah and not divine),
Sabellianism (three modes rather than three distinct persona),
Pneumatomachians (denial of Holy Ghost divinity),
Adoptionism(the belief that god was an adopted son of god rather than one with god),
Monarchianism (which defines god as one person)

to name a few.. the trinitarianism was never the common doctrine, or say universal teaching of Christianity, but rather, it may or may not have existed in the past as there is no clear evidence that it ever did, even Paul never mentioned it.. the reason therefore of its formulation is so that Christianity would be whole as Constantine wanted, as part of his aim to bind Rome together, and a means to combat all other beliefs.. Paul of Samosota and Bishop of Antioch, Sabellius Priest and Theologian, Arius, Saint Lucian of Antioch, Eusibius of Nicomedia, Maris bishop of Chalcedon, Theognis of Nicaea, Marcellus of Ancyra, to mention a few, all Christian patriarchs but holding different beliefs,.. a telling that truly there was never a clear consensus amongst the Christian faith during the Pre-Nicean era...

[heartthr0b]

muslim (magical flying donkey) VS christians (malicious talking snake)

place your bet

[noy]

Like i said bay noy, the teaching that god is triune, is only one of those countless beliefs that Christians used to hold, because there was no bible during the time, christians from all over differ in their views, the nicean council did not only battle Arianism, but it also battled with:

Gnostism,
Mysticism,
Ebionism (the belief that jesus was just a messiah and not divine),
Sabellianism (three modes rather than three distinct persona),
Pneumatomachians (denial of Holy Ghost divinity),
Adoptionism(the belief that god was an adopted son of god rather than one with god),
Monarchianism (which defines god as one person)

to name a few.. the trinitarianism was never the common doctrine, or say universal teaching of Christianity, but rather, it may or may not have existed in the past as there is no clear evidence that it ever did, even Paul never mentioned it.. the reason therefore of its formulation is so that Christianity would be whole as Constantine wanted, as part of his aim to bind Rome together, and a means to combat all other beliefs.. Paul of Samosota and Bishop of Antioch, Sabellius Priest and Theologian, Arius, Saint Lucian of Antioch, Eusibius of Nicomedia, Maris bishop of Chalcedon, Theognis of Nicaea, Marcellus of Ancyra, to mention a few, all Christian patriarchs but holding different beliefs,.. a telling that truly there was never a clear consensus amongst the Christian faith during the Pre-Nicean era...

That's where apostolic succession and teachings come in.

i believe these were Paul's writings emphasized on the link i provided you with in my previous post.

"May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
2 Cor. 13:14

Paul's epistles and the writings of the Church Fathers predates Constantine for 100-200 bai.

according to the gospel of Matthew 28:19, when Jesus commissioned His Disciples after the resurrection.
He instructed them to baptize in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, which i believe is the strongest scriptural basis for the doctrine of Trinity.

Further explantion, scriptural and traditional basis of The doctrine of Holy Trinity click the link below..
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity

if di ka mutuo, aw wa na tay mabuhat ana..hehehe..but as far as Catholic teachings and Doctrines are concerned.
this is the Truth we know and as i have suggested previously, you can verify the writings of the Church Fathers and their corresponding dates with History. as well as the validity of the Catholic Church's apostolic succession.

[Jhared]

That's where apostolic succession and teachings come in.

i believe these were Paul's writings emphasized on the link i provided you with in my previous post.

"May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
2 Cor. 13:14

Paul's epistles and the writings of the Church Fathers predates Constantine for 100-200 bai.

according to the gospel of Matthew 28:19, when Jesus commissioned His Disciples after the resurrection.
He instructed them to baptize in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, which i believe is the strongest scriptural basis for the doctrine of Trinity.

Further explantion, scriptural and traditional basis of The doctrine of Holy Trinity click the link below..
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity

if di ka mutuo, aw wa na tay mabuhat ana..hehehe..but as far as Catholic teachings and Doctrines are concerned.
this is the Truth we know and as i have suggested previously, you can verify the writings of the Church Fathers and their corresponding dates with History. as well as the validity of the Catholic Church's apostolic succession.

It's all moot, Paul never directly implied, let alone stated trinity in his letters.. rather he kept on saying that Jesus was a High Priest, comparable to Melchizedek, that would bring about a new era just like Melchizedek did through Abraham.. and all Paul said about the life of Jesus was his sacrifice, death, and Resurrection, but he never mentioned Mary, Joseph and all other things from the gospels, nor even quoted Jesus,. although for me it's because of the reason nga wala pa ni exist ang mga gospels during his time, but considering that the life of Jesus is an eternal fact and of great import he would've known it right? on the other hand, clearly Paul had a different view about Jesus entirely, and so did the rest of Christianity in the pre-Nicean times..

[iloveyouvirus]

bitaw nuh?

[noy]

It's all moot, Paul never directly implied, let alone stated trinity in his letters.. rather he kept on saying that Jesus was a High Priest, comparable to Melchizedek, that would bring about a new era just like Melchizedek did through Abraham.. and all Paul said about the life of Jesus was his sacrifice, death, and Resurrection, but he never mentioned Mary, Joseph and all other things from the gospels, nor even quoted Jesus,. although for me it's because of the reason nga wala pa ni exist ang mga gospels during his time, but considering that the life of Jesus is an eternal fact and of great import he would've known it right? on the other hand, clearly Paul had a different view about Jesus entirely, and so did the rest of Christianity in the pre-Nicean times..

sige atong tan.awn ug unsay naa sa Biblia bai.

"If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Romans 10:9-13

God or the Father has always been regarded as the savior esp in OT times..
like in the book of Joel 2:32 in the Old Testament,
"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered."
but Paul in the verse above, referred to Jesus as Lord, and that whoever believes and calls to Him will be saved..

maski gani ang Holy spirit..naa puy Salvic works
"he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, "Titus 3:5

Jesus said in John 10:30 " I and the Father are one."

We don't have trouble regarding God the Father as the creator..however Paul regarded Jesus as the Creator as well.
"For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him."
Colossians 1:16

which is confirmed in the Gospel of John 1:1-3
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

even the Spirit too is a Creator..
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. "
Genesis 1:1–2

the three distinctive persons in the Godhead were all called and referred to as God..both from Paul and Peter's writings.

the Father - "Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:2

the Son - "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"
Colossians 2:9

the Spirit - "Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God."
Acts 5:3-4

and naa puy kang paul kung gusto ka..hehehe
"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own"
1 Corinthians 6:19

this then ultimately, points out to the idea that St. Paul was indeed invoking the three divine persons in One divine Being when he greets his fellow believers in his letters..and it is needless to explicity mention the trinity.
besides, the Trinity is just a term given to describe God's nature..Paul wouldn't have had any idea about the term..hahaha

so we read...
"May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
2 Corinthians 13:14
what other reasons could there be? why not write may the grace,love and fellowship of God be with you instead..kung wa man diay nag hold ug trinitarian point of view si Paul towards God..

even in the old testament..we can find some verses where God was referring to Himself in plural..

"Then God said, “Let US make mankind in OUR image, in our likeness."
Gen 1:26

" And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of US

should there be multiple Gods?

the bible also shows that there is only One God..

"he most important one,answered Jesus, is this: Hear, O Israel The Lord our God, the Lord is one."
Mark 12:29

should this be a contradiction? Let's see..

There is One God..but in some verses God addresses Himself in plural...
also, the bible teaches that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Spirit is God.
and all three Saves and Creates..whatever the Father and Son does..the Spirit also does..
therefore, this points out that there is but One God, this One divine being we call God has three disctinctive Persons..

how is that possible?
for the same reason that a man and woman becomes one flesh in union with marraige.. with divine and perfect union..the three divine persons in the trinity is the fullness
of the One Divine being..the One God..

and besides, One being doesn't have to be equivalent with 1 person all the time..
human being? 1 person...
Plants? still a being but zero person...
God is One Being but in three persons.

this then explains why Jesus taught His disciples to baptise in the Name of the Father, the Son and of the Holy Spirit..otherwise, it wouldn't make sense...

i believe i have already supplicated you all the details and reasons bai regarding the Doctrine of Trinity.
you can go ahead and believe what you want to believe.

like i said previously, in times of confusion what to believe and who to believe..that's where the Apostolic Succession comes in.
The Catholic Church recognizes the validity of Apostolic Succession..
ambut lang kaha tong mga pundok that denies the Trinity

anyways, i have answered from the Catholic perspective which this thread is all about.
so i guess we can just agree to disagree..hehehehe

[pakinimo]

Labay lng ko. Idol na tka maka reply noy hurot libro hehehehe d ko magsilbi ani

[noy]

Labay lng ko. Idol na tka maka reply noy hurot libro hehehehe d ko magsilbi ani

mao nay technique bai..para mu surrender ang ka debate..LOL

naa pa raba koy utang nimu sa pikas thread..hahaha