The Breakeven Story

[noy]

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EXODUS 20:2-7
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. 8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’” 9 And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.”

The Law of the Altar
22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘You have seen that I have talked with you from heaven. 23 You shall not make anything to be with Me—gods of silver or gods of gold you shall not make for yourselves. 24 An altar of earth you shall make for Me, and you shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen. In every place where I record My name I will come to you, and I will bless you. 25 And if you make Me an altar of stone, you shall not build it of hewn stone; for if you use your tool on it, you have profaned it. 26 Nor shall you go up by steps to My altar, that your nakedness may not be exposed on it.’





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Exodus 32
New King James Version (NKJV)

The Gold Calf

32 Now when the people saw that Moses delayed coming down from the mountain, the people gathered together to Aaron, and said to him, “Come, make us gods that shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.”

2 And Aaron said to them, “Break off the golden earrings which are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me.” 3 So all the people broke off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron. 4 And he received the gold from their hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf.

Then they said, “This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!”

5 So when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow is a feast to the Lord.” 6 Then they rose early on the next day, offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

7 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. 8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’” 9 And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.”

11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: “Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’”[a] 14 So the Lord relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

15 And Moses turned and went down from the mountain, and the two tablets of the Testimony were in his hand. The tablets were written on both sides; on the one side and on the other they were written. 16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said to Moses, “There is a noise of war in the camp.”

18 But he said:

“It is not the noise of the shout of victory,
Nor the noise of the cry of defeat,
But the sound of singing I hear.”
19 So it was, as soon as he came near the camp, that he saw the calf and the dancing. So Moses’ anger became hot, and he cast the tablets out of his hands and broke them at the foot of the mountain. 20 Then he took the calf which they had made, burned it in the fire, and ground it to powder; and he scattered it on the water and made the children of Israel drink it. 21 And Moses said to Aaron, “What did this people do to you that you have brought so great a sin upon them?”

22 So Aaron said, “Do not let the anger of my lord become hot. You know the people, that they are set on evil. 23 For they said to me, ‘Make us gods that shall go before us; as for this Moses, the man who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.’ 24 And I said to them, ‘Whoever has any gold, let them break it off.’ So they gave it to me, and I cast it into the fire, and this calf came out.”

25 Now when Moses saw that the people were unrestrained (for Aaron had not restrained them, to their shame among their enemies), 26 then Moses stood in the entrance of the camp, and said, “Whoever is on the Lord’s side—come to me!” And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together to him. 27 And he said to them, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘Let every man put his sword on his side, and go in and out from entrance to entrance throughout the camp, and let every man kill his brother, every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.’” 28 So the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses. And about three thousand men of the people fell that day. 29 Then Moses said, “Consecrate yourselves today to the Lord, that He may bestow on you a blessing this day, for every man has opposed his son and his brother.”

30 Now it came to pass on the next day that Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. So now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” 31 Then Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Oh, these people have committed a great sin, and have made for themselves a god of gold! 32 Yet now, if You will forgive their sin—but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written.”

33 And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. 34 Now therefore, go, lead the people to the place of which I have spoken to you. Behold, My Angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit for punishment, I will visit punishment upon them for their sin.”

35 So the Lord plagued the people because of what they did with the calf which Aaron made.

Our GOD Heavenly Father is a jealous God. We must and We should obey HE's commandments. HE is able. Amen

and how do these verses relate to the Catholic images of Saints and Christ?
are you certain that when the Lord speaks to moses about those terms
the Lord is also speaking on the same term to CAtholics?

'cause if the issue is making of images alone then you may wanna qoute the verses
where the Lord instructed Moses to create the image of a serpent for healing
or the specifics of the arc

if worship of images pud and issue, that is clearly a misconception on your part sis
'cause as far as the Catholic teaching is concerned, they are not worshiped.

please do not relate teh Catholic images to the golden calf, pagan gods of old
'cause they are not the same.

1st, images are not worshiped
2nd, the images displayed the glory of God through the people portrayed by the images
unlike the golden calf, mga kahoy, dog-headed god etc which totally discredit God for being the one-true God.

[noy]

None of us knows the mind of God mao bitaw nay purpose why there's a written word....para atong tun-an ug basihan if we are still on the right track. It is the work of the Holy Spirit bro to guide us into all truth....Coz if we say that way, how can we be sure also nga ang hinduism and other polytheists sayop nga belief? .

nganu ning abut naman kag polytheism ug buddhism break? we are talking about Biblical interpretations per denomination.
mao bitaw naay giingun nga the judgement you place to your brother will be the same judgement that will be placed unto you
to prevent us from judging others. karun as per your understanding biblical texts, note ha, your inderstanding..
you label CAtholics as idolaters,etc just because you find certain verses about carved images
without even knowing that it is exactly what and how JESUS see the images in the Catholic Practice
you as well agreed that NONE of us would know the exact things going through God's mind then why do you act as if you do?
you are qouting an interpretation of God's word break, NOT the ACTUAL word of God.

Mao ning ingun ko, whenever you find Catholic practices contradict the Bible, you might as well
verify it with the actual teaching(catechism) to understand why and to avoid PLACING JUDGEMENT on Catholicism

Yes it is the work of the Holy Spirit to guide us to the truth, so whenever you say sakit ang kamatuoran, does that imply that
YOU are the only one who Have the Spirit of God? so kadtong Apostolic Fathers, CAtholics(not necessarily Roman CAtholics) in the times of the Apostles
wala toy Holy Spirit? kay kanang nakita nimu karun nga mga contradiction kuno sa RCC practice
kay gikan bya na sa Sacred Traditions and Sacred Scriptures(Biblical reference).

So you mean ang Ginoo diay nagpabuhat ug mga statue/images sa mga santos para i worship or less i-venerate? klaro baya kayo ni nga verses bro bisan bata ang ipa interpret ana. Kung makasulti palang ang statuwa bro, mao sad ni ilang i-share tingali sa mga moluhod nila...

Acts 10
25And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

Exodus 20
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

Ang mga katiguwangan nga religious kayo bro kung imong pangutan-on, ilang pagsabot jud nga kanang ilang patron saint, unsa pa na....mao nay makatabang/makaluwas sa ilang kahimtang. Na divert na ang true worship ngadto sa Ginoo tungod kay divided ilang kasing2.

.[/QUOTE]

break are you even listening to yourself my brother?
The Exodus verse have been long refuted, explained and have been expounded as to why it does not refer to Catholic Images
and again for the Nth time my friend, wala na giworship ang statue, even the very image of our Lord Jesus is not worshiped
but the God portrayed by the image..please know the difference.
BOWING is not necessarily an act of worship.
if you have been to Japanese dojos for aikido...mu bow man gani ka sa picture ni o sensei(founder) as respect.
when a Korean friend meets you, diba mu bow sila sa imu, it is a sign of respect
before ka magtula, mu bow ka diba? do you worship the audience?

Did those Religious oldies specifically say that the Saints are God themselves and that despite of not worshiping Jesus they will still be saved through the saints?
take note: ilang giingun makatabang, just like you can help me to be closer to Jesus in your prayers and in your counsel.

just like going after how Ravi explains things, you get inspired, you qoute his words...
why would you have to listed to Ravi when you can go to God directly?
because Ravi helped you to understand and know Jesus more..

the life of the saints with Christ and asking them to pray for us can help and inspire us spiritually to know Jesus more
apart from the physical means we have in this life..
again, you need to know the difference between veneration and worship.

and if ever naa juy nagworship ug imahe ug ni angkon nga ang mga santo ug maong imahe mga Ginoo
that's why i encouraged you to read the Catechism of Catholic Church(for your understanding not for devotion)
so that you would know what the Church's actual stand on these things is.

[Joseph Ratzinger]

^Noy is right about reading the Cathecism. It doesn't mean that you have to convert. I myself read about Buddhism and I am even interested in reading the Quran. But it doesn't mean I am converting. It's just to understand the beliefs of others. It's quite interesting.

[noy]

^Noy is right about reading the Cathecism. It doesn't mean that you have to convert. I myself read about Buddhism and I am even interested in reading the Quran. But it doesn't mean I am converting. It's just to understand the beliefs of others. It's quite interesting.

yes me too, i don't doubt Jesus as God and the Savior, but it would be nice to know why others think he isn't.

[jovipeorliohacokijo]

yes me too, i don't doubt Jesus as God and the Savior, but it would be nice to know why others think he isn't.

he is a Savior but he is not God for there is only one God, many great men and women in Islam, RC, Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism and other belief system knew that Jesus is one of the Greatest World Teacher but not the God for there is only one God.

[EZRA]

he is a Savior but he is not God for there is only one God, many great men and women in Islam, RC, Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism and other belief system knew that Jesus is one of the Greatest World Teacher but not the God for there is only one God.

In that case unsa may tawag nimo sa Holy Spirit? ... (not arguing.. but just wondering)

[noy]

he is a Savior but he is not God for there is only one God, many great men and women in Islam, RC, Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism and other belief system knew that Jesus is one of the Greatest World Teacher but not the God for there is only one God.

thanks jovs, like JRatzinger, i don't intend to convert, just wanted to understand. That's all.
imuha man pud nang understanding about who Jesus is, i think you've also explained why Jesus isn't God for you
and that is enough for me to personally conclude He really is.

[Gjhone]

Exodos 20:4 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

kani nga balaaod man gud nahitabo sa panahon ni moses, wala pa kakita gyud ang mga tawo ug unsay hulagway sa Ginoo ma nagpataka na lgn silag buhat ug hulagway, mapa kanding baka langgam adlaw ug unsa pa diha, mao nipakanaog ang Ginoo ana nga maong balaudnon.

pero tungod sa gugma sa Dios sa katawhan, iyang gipadala si Jesus Jhon 3:16 karon duna na silay idea ug unsa gyud ang dagway sa Ginoo.

Jhon 12:44-46

44 Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

sir daghan na kaayo ni explain about graven images...dili lang judni sila kasabot,

[SPRINGFIELD_XD_40]

On the 22nd page .... SPRINGY LOCKED the THREAD .

Ahhhh murag the second coming man .