THE OBELISK: a pagan symbol?

[tsunade]

---

well said densyo!!.. keep posting guyz daghan gyud ko makat-onan ninyo bahin sa bible dah.

[noy]

My main point is since Jesus did Not mention anything about choosing a Cross or using a cross, then we should Not assume what God or Jesus thinks or plans UNLESS its written in the Bible. Jesus said in the bible:

John 4:23-24
23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

If you will introduce the concept of Symbols or Objects in worshiping God then it contradict whats Jesus said about worship in spirit. That's why the main message of Jesus is His Death not where or how he was killed. That we should remember that He died for our sins.

sio, even sa old testament books, na foretold na ngadto nga ang messias ilansang..ug patyon kauban sa mga criminal, biay-biayon, lud.an ug uban pa
meaning i treat Siya as pinaka ubos sa tanang ubos..
i'm not sure kung uso na bang crucifixion sa OT but sa panahon ni Jesus(messias natong mga Christiano) ang pinaka ubos nga paagi sa pagpatay sa usa ka criminal ang paglansang...

so kung gi pa nagna na sa karaang kasabutan ang pag abut sa messias, pagsakripisyo, ug pagpakamatay unsaon pagkamatay ug ang pagkabanhaw...
meaning hasta mismo ang CROSS, apil na sa pagpili sa Ginoo...

kung mutoo ka perfect ang will sa Ginoo, so tanang nahitabo-mahitabo, iya nang gi allow according to His plan..
God doesn't wait for circumstances to decide 'cause He is all knowing.

wa man ko muingun nga kinahanglan ug symbols ang tao para maka simba sa Diyos...
so i don't see the relevance about the verse where we should worship God in spirit and in truth in our discussion

ang atong topic kay ang cross isip simbolo sa kaluwasan sa Diyos, as the original topic goes...
nga though ang cross naay pagan roots...ok ra sa ato nga Chrsitians 'cause it signifies the victory of Christ over sin.
in the same way mao ang obelisk, though pagan symbol ug naay pagan roots...di na mu matter
kay naa ni siya diha sa Rome sa st.peter's basilica, dili para simbahon kundi para mag simbolo sa mga nangamatay alang sa gospel..

sama sa Cross, when i see the cross, it reminds me of Jesus Love for me...so moduol ko atubangan sa cross ug feel nako moluhod, moluhod ko..BUT it dopesn't mean nga akong gi worship ang CROSS, i worship Jesus who died for on the Cross...
BUT thank God for the cross, 'cause when i see it..i would always end up remembering His Love for me.

ug sama sa obelisk didto sa Rome atbang sa St. peter's basilica..we don't see it as a pagan symbol but
a silent witness of how the apostle peter and early Christians were martyrd..

murag kahoy gud nga 150 years old..maka ingun ta nga di lang nato ni putlon oi...kay witness bya ni sa
mga revolutions sa atong nasod for freedom..

[<SMILE>]

My main point is since Jesus did Not mention anything about choosing a Cross or using a cross, then we should Not assume what God or Jesus thinks or plans UNLESS its written in the Bible. Jesus said in the bible:

John 4:23-24
23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

If you will introduce the concept of Symbols or Objects in worshiping God then it contradict whats Jesus said about worship in spirit. That's why the main message of Jesus is His Death not where or how he was killed. That we should remember that He died for our sins.

Literally Jesus Christ died in the cross,
but look at the meaning of his death,
Jesus Christ's death is our salvation from Sins,
we could not discredit that as Cristians,
it's even the mere foundation of our faith.
The cross symbolizes our redemption from our sins
because through it and the sufferings the notion of salvation was realized.

[noy]

how much more of the blessed mother of Jesus. But I do not worship them. I can only ask from fellow Christians/leaders to pray for my soul anytime if I need to.

exactly what i was talking about bai..Perspective!
for you we worship saints, but we Do Not..
for you there's something occultic behind the Obelisk, but para namu wala ra na..historical and sentimental reasons ray nagpaluyo nganu naa na siya sa St.Peter's Basilica
mao di jud nimu madawat ang akong explanation isip RC tungod kay lahi imung POV..ana ra na.
mao nag ask ko nimu if how sure are you with what you consider to be the truth(minor doctrines and differences, tungod kay isip Chrsitiano, ang atong absolute truth kay ang nahisuwat sa John3:16)..
think about this bai, if naa pa nay di mao nga purpose ang Obelisk, naa na unta nay significance sa Catholic doctrines.. in terms of something spiritual, i agree..But no principality nor evil power can break into God's loce and grace..in the same way nga tungod sa gahum sa Diyos
ang cross nga naay pagan and shameful roots, was totally changed when Jesus died on it..
mao pud na ang kaso sa Obelisk, kung sa una gi himu nang sombolo sa mga pagan sa sun worship, karun gihimu nang historical attraction
sa pag hinumdum sa mga Chrsitian Martyrs..
kung mao nay imung pagtan.aw anang butanga, way kinsang demonyo nga maka sukol ana..kung para nimu ang cross nag simbolo sa atong kaluwasan, No pagan or shameful History can overtake you when you see the cross..

Dili man sad in ana ka open bro kung dunay hidden global agenda ang usa ka grupo, just like sa kang @jovi bah, secret2. Mao bitaw nay gitawag ug New World Order, one world government tungod naay nag conspire nga ubang world leaders to unite the world….of course nay spiritual force nga nagpaluyo ana.

do you think ang RCC maoy magpasiugda anang new world order bai?
the RCC even stood against RH bill unya maki sama na nuon sa new world order nga conspiracy?
magsugod na sa mga humanitarian programs bai, focusing on the welfare of the people maski pag maligsan ang religious morals,separation of church and state, hangtud i suppress na any religious roots and eventually wagtangon na...

kung ang RCC mi uyon pa ani, then ning uyon unta ang RCC sa RH.
this is off topic though but i had to share this as an example to relay my point.

bro sorry to say this but sa tinuod lang, there was a point in my life nga nagpangita kog answer of life’s meaning and I was not satisfied sa mga gishare/tubag sa mga kailang church leaders/laymen….tingali kulang lang ilang knowledge ato nga time. It happened na sharean ko sa gospel by a true Christian, daghan ko pangutana and it satisfies my soul. Diha sad nako nasabtan pag ayo ang kaluwasan nga gi offer sa ginoo. Timing lang bro nga dili pareha nimo ug knowledge ang nasugat nako nga katoliko..hhehe.

so kadtong mga wa naka satisfy nimu sa ilang mga tubag, dili to mga true Christians? Lol

Not to belittle the RC church bro, as I said before padayon ta kung asa sa atong paminaw nag grow ta spiritually. I respect many Catholics nga akong nailhan who lived by the gospel. Wala ko nag ingon nga ang pagsulod sa ubang grupo makapaduol nimo sa ginoo, theyre there either to lead or divert us diha sa kamatuoran. But still it’s a personal conviction.

ok, then why limit yourselves to your church/denominations perspective?

Kasabot ko sa imong point bro.
Generally speaking, same thing for the bible-believing Christians mas knowledgeable sila kaysa non-bible believers. When talking about the prophecies, I think mas pabor ang nagbasi sa bibliya kay daghan man references ilang makuha.

in other words, you think RCC is a non-biblical church?

Hahhhaha habak nga ngipon sa buaya….kahinumdum lang sad ko ani pagkagamay nako bro, naa koy habak nga bala ambot unsay sulod ato pang abog man daw sa dautan.
Mao bitaw daghan mystery nga nangahitabo within the RCC bro like katong gi murder nga Pope, etc. kay dunay 2 forces nga naglihok sa sulod. Don’t you know nga daghang mga butang gi reveal sa ubang priest nga nanghawa ug wala nato mabalo-i?

there are always 2 sides of the coin bro, the RCC is not exempted from it. maski ikaw,ako ug kinsa pa na diha, naay flesh ug naay spirit.
all i can say is if you think that RCC promotes and tolerates occultic scenes..then as a practicing RC Christian, i'm afraid sayop imung huna-huna bro.

Thanks bro.
Bitaw, mas knowledgeable jud ka compared nako. Broad imong knowledge and nindot imong wit and spontaneity.

Salamat pud bro, mao nang ganahan jud ko magkig storya nimu kay kabalo ka mupalapad sa atong atay..Lol

Sa akoa pud bro, lahi2 man gud ang level or standards sa grupo when it comes to compliance to the word of God. Dunay fundamental kayo duna sad liberal, I will not compare asay angay sundon kay depende naman na nato kung asa ta mofit/grow. We are a diverse creation and we have different tastes…hehhe. Though we don’t know the mind of God kung asa sya mas mahimuot, to the Fundamentalist ba, sa soft Christian or sa carnal. But seems obvious to those who adhere to his word jud bro noh...hehhe. and duna sad tay basis nga angay natong subayon, the BIBLE, that’s why duna jud mo push or encourage nato to align diha sa kamatuoran.

Kay kung lenient lang bro, saksak sinagol ang resulta sa langit kay hasta man ang hindus/Buddhist, etc nga wala motuo sa personal god ang atong maapil ana nga idea. Sa bagay ang ginoo ray nakabalo kung kinsa iyang angay luwason.

Yup I got your point bro. Akong ma relate in a relationship.
There are people nga grabe ug pasensya sa ilang badlongon nga asawa (vice versa) tungod sa ilang dakong gugma. Usahay mahimo na hinuon syang dautan kay I tolerate lang gihapon ang sayop nga buhat sa iyang pares. But we don’t know what’s in his heart nganong nakabuhat sya ana. Same thing with the love of God, he demonstrate it in the death of His Son. Mo link na diri imong verse nga gihatag John 3:16. Kung sabton nato ang verse, God is both loving and just. Dili pud love or justice tanan. His Love is always coupled with His justice.

agree with justice and Love. but the problem is our views on justice and love is very limited and insignificant compared to God's

reching out to others is very mysterious jud bro, only God can define it..sometimes we see it as compromise but it is really an act of love..
sometimes we see something as an act of love but it was actually out of pride.

mao simple ra jud kaayo gihatag ni Kuya Jes, Love God above all and others as we love ourselves,

Actually, naa baya jud bro but unconscious lang tingali mostly.
PAGAN SUN WORSHIP AND CATHOLICISM - LA VERITA - THE TRUTH

…or it is something that is hidden from the masses
Id like to share some links bro which needs proper judgment. I do not suggests to believe all these but make reference with the bible and see if this is true. I myself am not totally convinced pa ani.

The Biggest Vatican Secret Revealed! - YouTube
Mark Of The Beast And Paganism In The Catholic Church

bro, sa link pa lang daan, klaro na jud kaayo nga Anti-Catholicism. mao
kung mao nay imung basehan..eventually you'll become one.

Not only the obelisk bro but thanx so much bro for sharing your views also. Naa sad ko nakat-unan.

no problem.

Ill try to check bro….thanks.
May God's love reigns in our hearts.....and may God bless us all who seek for the truths!

amen.
OT:unya kakita naka sa itsura?

[Bricksand]

ikaw lang akong unahon ug reply bro kay murag mubo2x ra ni imu..hehehe

you remember Barrabas right? who requested for his release over Jesus? was it pilate on behalf of the Roman empire? or the Jews themselves along with the High Priests...?

please read Luke 23.1-25

hehehe mubo ra jud ni atoa hehehe kapoyan man gud ko type... Yep I remembered that the crowds requested the release of a notorious criminal over Jesus but how sure are you that the crowds were all Jews? In my observation there were other races who attended the gathering not just Jews as per as your previous statement.

[Bricksand]

The importance of the Cross does have significance only during the crucifixion of Jesus and from there it became the symbol of Christ sacrifice and salvation...simple as that...syaro!

Nganong lisoron pa jud pagsabot oi.

[TheSunKing]

The Vatican Obelisk stands as an expression of the conquering power of the Church. It is neither an object of worship or veneration in the Church.

English translation of the Latin inscription:

Pope Sixtus V (Supreme Pontiff)
Obelisk of Vatican
richly adorned by the Gentiles
To the threshold of the Apostles
The labor of thing laboriously carried away
1586, 2nd year of his pontificate.

Behold the Cross of the Lord!
go into exile ye hostile powers!
The Lion of the tribe of Judah hath prevailed!

Christ conquers,
Christ is King,
Christ is Emperor!
May Christ protect His
people from all evil!"

[Breakeven]

pasensya bro dugay ko makareply usahay coz i currently suffer from intermittent internet connection, akong laptop naa sad problema. This always happens everytime when I post some video links such as these.... but no problem, we already knew who is in control and the prince of the power of the air...heheh.

@noy

exactly what i was talking about bai..Perspective! for you we worship saints, but we Do Not..

How about Mary bro?

for you there's something occultic behind the Obelisk, but para namu wala ra na..historical and sentimental reasons ray nagpaluyo nganu naa na siya sa St.Peter's Basilica

Maybe for some Catholics. How about those people mismo sa Vatican nga naay idea aning mga butanga?
VATICAN EXPOSED

mao di jud nimu madawat ang akong explanation isip RC tungod kay lahi imung POV..ana ra na.
mao nag ask ko nimu if how sure are you with what you consider to be the truth(minor doctrines and differences, tungod kay isip Chrsitiano, ang atong absolute truth kay ang nahisuwat sa John3:16)..

That’s normal lang bro naay butang nga dili nato dawaton dayon, unless the evidence mo fit sa kamatuoran. My source of truth mostly is the bible. Ang lisud diha kung gi consider nato ang bible as God’s truth but we believe only halfheartedly.

think about this bai, if naa pa nay di mao nga purpose ang Obelisk, naa na unta nay significance sa Catholic doctrines.. in terms of something spiritual, i agree..But no principality nor evil power can break into God's love and grace..

Lisud man bro if di ta maka distinguish sa Paganism from Christianity. Remember that Roman Catholicism was originally formed by a Pagan Emperor Constantine. There is a big possibility of the corruption within the church.

Obelisk, Religion, Masons, and pagan origins from Egypt to the Vatican! - YouTube

in the same way nga tungod sa gahum sa Diyos ang cross nga naay pagan and shameful roots, was totally changed when Jesus died on it..mao pud na ang kaso sa Obelisk, kung sa una gi himu nang sombolo sa mga pagan sa sun worship, karun gihimu nang historical attraction sa pag hinumdum sa mga Chrsitian Martyrs..

Unsa may connection sa Obelisk ug sa martyr, giunsa sila pagpatay using the obelisk?
I agree if your point nagpasabot nga ang mga taw nga nagpaluyo and who worship that image, mao ang nagpapatay sa mga Christian martyrs. So it means nga ang obelisk dili diay related sa Christianity, instead, like the cross, is an abominable thing/symbol. If the cross refers to Jesus Christ, why man dili Giant Cross ang gibutang diha sa center sa Saint Peter Square? Taga Vatican ra tingali makatubag ani bro…heheh.

kung mao nay imung pagtan.aw anang butanga, way kinsang demonyo nga maka sukol ana..kung para nimu ang cross nag simbolo sa atong kaluwasan, No pagan or shameful History can overtake you when you see the cross..

Wala silay gikahadlukan sa tanang butang/taw sa kalibutan, I think demons only shivers in the name or presence of the Lord Jesus Christ.

do you think ang RCC maoy magpasiugda anang new world order bai?
the RCC even stood against RH bill unya maki sama na nuon sa new world order nga conspiracy?
magsugod na sa mga humanitarian programs bai, focusing on the welfare of the people maski pag maligsan ang religious morals,separation of church and state, hangtud i suppress na any religious roots and eventually wagtangon na...

kung ang RCC mi uyon pa ani, then ning uyon unta ang RCC sa RH. this is off topic though but i had to share this as an example to relay my point.

I assumed there are 2 forces nga naglihok sa Vatican bro. Murag politics ba.

Father John O'Connor: The Reign of the Antichrist - 1/9 - YouTube

So kadtong mga wa naka satisfy nimu sa ilang mga tubag, dili to mga true Christians? Lol

Akong point bro, wala ko na satisfy sa ilang explaination not if theyre true or false Christians. It doesn’t mean nga kung hinayon ta dili tinuod atong pagka Christian. It happen lang nga mas maayo pagka explain sa ubang Christian denomination about the truths of the bible.

ok, then why limit yourselves to your church/denominations perspective?

With all the videos akong gishare bro, about those people from inside the Vatican nag exposed sa ilang na observe, would you still hold fast to your perspective nga walay hidden agenda sa sulod? I do not limit my perspective bro, but I fixed my truth in Jesus Christ and the Bible. Kung wala tay fixed reference bro, tanang belief is acceptable….then why we disagree in Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism’s teachings?

in other words, you think RCC is a non-biblical church?

It is. But not totally. Mao bitaw wala jud na gi-encourage sa unang panahon nga ipabasa, especially during the Dark Ages, maybe because mabaloan nga daghan conflicts sa mga teachings and practices.

there are always 2 sides of the coin bro, the RCC is not exempted from it. maski ikaw,ako ug kinsa pa na diha, naay flesh ug naay spirit. all i can say is if you think that RCC promotes and tolerates occultic scenes..then as a practicing RC Christian, i'm afraid sayop imung huna-huna bro.

Hopefully sayop ko. But truth will always find its way to surface. Let’s see what will happen in the near future. These are serious matters bro.

agree with justice and Love. but the problem is our views on justice and love is very limited and insignificant compared to God's reching out to others is very mysterious jud bro, only God can define it..sometimes we see it as compromise but it is really an act of love..sometimes we see something as an act of love but it was actually out of pride.

mao simple ra jud kaayo gihatag ni Kuya Jes, Love God above all and others as we love ourselves,

Yes bro, only God knows. But what he reveals in the bible is very Clear. John 3:16, as you consider the absolute truth talks about the depth of the Love of God and the consequences of those who accepts/rejects it.

bro, sa link pa lang daan, klaro na jud kaayo nga Anti-Catholicism. mao
kung mao nay imung basehan..eventually you'll become one.

Dili man tingali dautan ang paghatag ug link bro. Ang taw nga nangita jud sa kamatuoran will surely find it one day. Bisan pa pila pa ka information atong I share kung dili jud ta convinced, wala nay power sa atua.

Makaingon ta sakto sad baya ang words ni George Mc Donald that says…” To give truth to him who loves it not, is only to give him more multiplied reasons for misinterpretations.”

I admire your brilliance bro and I hope we can come to the point nga magkauyon ta in viewing the truth in our discussion too.

Cheers and God bless us always!

[Breakeven]

@noy

...in the same way mao ang obelisk, though pagan symbol ug naay pagan roots...di na mu matter
kay naa ni siya diha sa Rome sa st.peter's basilica, dili para simbahon kundi para mag simbolo sa mga nangamatay alang sa gospel..

sama sa Cross, when i see the cross, it reminds me of Jesus Love for me...so moduol ko atubangan sa cross ug feel nako moluhod, moluhod ko..BUT it dopesn't mean nga akong gi worship ang CROSS, i worship Jesus who died for on the Cross...
BUT thank God for the cross, 'cause when i see it..i would always end up remembering His Love for me.

ug sama sa obelisk didto sa Rome atbang sa St. peter's basilica..we don't see it as a pagan symbol buta silent witness of how the apostle peter and early Christians were martyrd..

Nindot kayo ni sya bro kung tanang Katoliko pasabton ana nga explaination. At least masabtan nila ang pagan history ana nga Image nga nagpatunga sa Vatican.

Ang nindot nga pangutana karon, kung ang mga leaders nga nagpaluyo ana nga symbol niuyon pa sa Christianity based sa imong gimention then why they suppress the preaching of the gospel? Kung ang Pope maka intervene in major conflicts in different countries, unsa may nabuhat sa Pope/church leaders about the Christian persecutions in these countries?

The Final Hour: Christianity - The Most Persecuted Religion In The Entire World

We should know that Christian persecution, beheading, etc will happen again in the future as prophesied in the book of Revelation once this “BEAST” power will be completely healed. Sad to say, but this is the FATE for the true Christians.

[Breakeven]

@smile

Thanks sa verses Bro,Please let me portray it in the most practical way.

If naa koy uyab, unya magkalagyoay mi,dili na ko kakita niya,akong gibuhat gatago ko ug iyang picture sa akong pitaka, para sa panahon nga mingawon ko niya maoy akong tan-aw tan-awon,
sa akong gibuhat nakasala kaha ko sa akong uyab?

Wala jud bro. Unless kung naa ka sa layo unya naa kay sideline then pagtan-aw nimo sa picture na konsensya ka…hehehe. joke bro ha.

Dili kaha ang sala ana Bro,nga sa wala na ang akong uyab,kay nagkalagyoay man mi. nagtago ko ug picture sa laing babaye?

Kana madoble jud bro kay duha na ang picture imong gitago2.

How about God,sala ba diay nga maghimo ko ug representation niya kay dili na man nako siya makita?

Ang pagsulti ni Jesus Christ to worship God in spirit and in truth sayon sabton ug klaro kayo bro. Why the need for an image/symbol kung mag ampo ka sa Ginoo? Ang point diha bro, bisan asa pa ta mahimutang, we can always bow down our heads and connect to God in spirit…dili na need nga dalhon2 nato ang cross or any symbol para ibutang sa atubangan in times we pray.

peace bro!