Questions for the Atheists

[noy]

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libog nuon ko aning truth2 da, kay naa nsad absolute truth hahaha...

naa koy gi post earlier about katong 1+1, i dont know if you read it, but let me just post it again.. Bertrand Russell on his book Principia Mathematica, he proved that 1+1 indeed is equal to 2.. now makaingon ba ka nga siya ra ang naay right nga moingon nga 1+1=2 since siya rman ang nka prove ana?

we dont have to know everything to conclude things, otherwise i would have to ask for you the same thing kong moingon ka nga naay Ginoo..

if God has no creator then he will have no purpose.. for if something is to have purpose there must be an entity higher in meaning that shall command purpose from it..

Confusing man jud ang universe and wonderful and mysterious, that's why mka conclude jud and tawo nga naay ga design, but lets not also forget nga destructive sad ang universe and scary, a fact that verifies the fact that it is not perfect, so if it is designed then it is not perfect..

1+1 kay absolute man jud na bro...hehehe...lain sad kaau ug 11 ang answer..hehehe...
pero ang existence sa Ginoo kay dili nato na pwede i hambingay sa 1+1
kay of course anyone who knows basic mathematical principles can answer that question with full confidence..
however i'd agree that no one can ever express full confidence when we are talking about absolute truth when it comes to God's existence..

ako mismo bro, sure ko nga naay Ginoo, kahibaw ko in my heart and mind nga naa jud Ginoo
but to say sakto jud ko ug sayop mu tanan as the absolute truth...murag kinahanglan pa ko mahimung Ginoo para maka storya ana...hahahaha...who knows sakto ang islam,sakto si jovi...hehehe ug sakto ang aetheism...

one of the reasons why i believe there is God because i simply do not,cannot and will not understand everything..
but to conclude that there is no God because we do not and possibly will not understand how everything work is
somewhat premature..sorry bai ha..you can say the same thing towards me actually...hehehe...
murag subject nga History, i used to hate it 'cause wa ko kasabut unsay gamit ana...daghang memoryahon,mga enumeration...hasol kaayo..so i hated the subject...but now nga medyo, nagkaedad nako gamay...i've seen its value and importance...para nako karun i love history
good thing kay subject ra na siya, but the thought of abandoning God using our own understanding(i think we can both agree nga dili jud kaayo ing ana ka reliable when it comes to these things)..if God was true,
it could be our loss...

no disrespect sa imung stand bai ha..ayaw unta ni laina pagsabut
for me it's ok to question,to doubt, to be skeptic...but to conclude that there is no God might be a little off..
kay when we conclude, tendency man gud is atong focus ma set na anang dapita kung asa ta pabor(again same principle also applies to theism, mao naay mga fundamentalists,usahay condemning pa jud )..opinion lang pud na nako..

parehas anang imu giingun:
If God has no creator then he will have no purpose.. for if something is to have purpose there must be an entity higher in meaning that shall command purpose from it..
--but on the other side of the coin, it is also possible that God really does not need a creator and purpose..
'cause maybe He is the purpose of every creation...and besides, if God is really God?our perspective and knowledge about things are of no value...like earcly Christians thought that the purpose of the universe is for people...well that could be true...who knows,but i think the universe is way way too big and mysterious to be created for us..where not even substancial in our own galaxy...hehehe...where not even the center of the universe, earth is not even the biggest planet...our sun is not even the meanest of all stars..apparently it is one of the smallest...but if the universe is to display the grandness and glory of God...then maybe it's just about its size...stars are born everyday, but we remember in basic theology that His glory is of infinite value...

even the bad things that happened in our lives, unanswered prayers,accidents,even cancer...
we know that there are mean people who got sickness are humbled..
we know that faithful people who are challenged by life yet remained faithful become a blessing to others who are loosing faith
we know that wars can somehow create peace(though i am 100% against it) but in the bigger picure..
we know that unanswered prayers can sometimes turn out to be a preparation for something greater and far more beautiful than what we prayed for,
we know that maybe prayers aren't answered 'cause we're not ready for what we prayed for...
we wouldn't even have this freedom if our forefathers didn't fought for it...
and we wouldn't have salvation if Christ did not sacrificed for it....
of course physically we can see and might conclude that God is not anymore intervening 'cause of the
chaos we are going through...but then again, the challege is how much do we know about how God intervenes?
like the physical proof that we are looking for, the possibility that the proof has been laid over already
but we just had a different perspective of proof...we are trying to prove for something infinite using our finite
minds and observations...lisud2x jud na bai..

philosophically, kadtong giingun ni CS Lewis bai, nga Christianity(actually to be fair with others,we can replace it with any faith that provides salvation) if false, is of no importance..
but if true, is of infinite importance..

logically and reasonably, if i am wrong about my belief, then i am just wrong.
but like i said sa una, with Christ's virtue, it is more than enough to live a good life and to have a beatufil relationship with people and loved ones,enough reason kumbaga..
pero kung di ko mutoo ug Ginoo then naay Ginoo, unsaon man na nato?
we both know nga this life is only a one way ticket...kung maka ikyas man gani tas kamatayon..pipila...
muabut jud nang panahon nga ma impas jud ta...

but apart from logical and philosophical reasons, i have many reasons why i believe in God.
my Christian walk has not always been a walk in the park...
there are times that i would really want to let go...but i'm glad i didn;t
i didn't know the possibilities and outcomes but i just believed...
'cause i believe what Jesus said that blessed are those who have not seen,yet believed..

bai, ayaw ni ug laina ug sabut akong gi istorya diri ha. istorya ra ni ato...
of course i do not agree with aetheism but i have full respect with that point of view...

[digitalartistbem]

I just want to post something interesting for me. It's a good conversation, maybe it can help with your own journey. I think this is too common for atheist and theist. I don't intend to start a debate or even persuade but rather share and educate Cheers

Professor: You are a Christian, aren’t you, son?
Student: Yes, sir.
Professor: So, you believe in GOD?
Student: Absolutely, sir.
Professor: Is GOD good?
Student: Sure.
Professor: Is GOD all-powerful?
Student: Yes.
Professor: My brother died of Cancer even though he prayed to GOD to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But GOD didn’t. How is this GOD good then? Hmm?
(Student was silent)
Professor: You can’t answer, can you? Let’s start again, young fellow. Is GOD good?
Student: Yes.
Professor: Is Satan good?
Student: No.
Professor: Where does Satan come from?
Student: From… GOD…
Professor: That’s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student: Yes.
Professor: Evil is everywhere, isn’t it? And GOD did make everything? Correct?
Student: Yes.
Professor: So who created evil?
(Student did not answer)
Professor: Is there Sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don’t they?
Student: Yes, sir.
Professor: So, who created them?
(Student had no answer)
Professor: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son… Have you ever seen GOD?
Student: No, sir.
Professor: Tell us if you have ever heard your GOD?
Student: No, sir.
Professor: Have you ever felt your GOD, tasted your GOD, smelt your GOD? Have you ever had any sensory perception of GOD for that matter?
Student: No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.
Professor: Yet you still believe in HIM?
Student: Yes.
Professor: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.
Professor: Yes, faith. And that is the problem science has.
Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Professor: Yes.
Student: And is there such a thing as cold?
Professor: Yes.
Student: No, sir. There isn’t.
(The lecture theatre became very quiet with this turn of events )
Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don’t have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.
(There was pin-drop silence in the lecture theater)
Student: What about darkness, professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Professor: Yes. What is night if there isn’t darkness?
Student: You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light… But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness, isn’t it? In reality, darkness isn’t. If it is, were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?
Professor: So what is the point you are making, young man?
Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Professor: Flawed? Can you explain how?
Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good GOD and a bad GOD. You are viewing the concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never been0seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?
Professor: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.
Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The professor shook his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument was going)
Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and can not even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?
(The class was in uproar)
Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor’s brain?
(The class broke out into laughter)
Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor’s brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so? So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room was silent. The professor stared at the student, his face unfathomable)
Professor: I guess you’ll have to take them on faith, son.
Student: That is it sir… exactly! The link between man and GOD is FAITH. That is all that keeps things alive and moving.

[digitalartistbem]

I also remembered a senior defending his own faith about the existence of God.....It tickled my mind and helped me with my walk with Christ. Again, I don't persuade nor debate, but if I have the chance to share and educate, I will.

There are two scientists. An atheist(scientist 1) and theist(scientist 2).

Scientist 2 created a little solar system. It was very beautiful.
Scientist 1 went to his lab and saw scientist 2.

Scientist 1 thought that the mini solar system is so beautiful and so perfect. "Incredible!". Who made this?
Scientist 2 said: No, no one created that. It just showed up there.
Scientist 1 said: Huh? That's impossible! Why isn't there a creator for such a perfect solar system like this?

.........

[Xian120]

@noy

i dont know where to start actually kay lahi2 ang imong punto, mas nindot cguro nga one at a time..

the universe truly is a bedazzling mystery, we dont even know kong ang atong nahibaw-an karon is true or not, we can only assume and write equations, but as to uncover its mystery still remains as a bark on the moon.. true or not, right or wrong, its still good to know that we tried.. same gud ug manguyab ta, kong di ta mosulti dili jud ta makabaw sa tubag, but bahalag dili sugton it is still best nga mosulti ta, coz we have to give it a try,..

i dont question the purpose of this universe and our existence, coz for me there is no such thing as purpose,. it may sound eerie but that to me is the truth.. questioning the purpose and meaning is to me meaningful and a waste of my time,. but although i hold in me a thought of unpurposefulness it doesn't mean that i will not try to live my life with gusto and passion..

our purpose is our own, our meaning is our own,. live and let die that's all there is to it..

[noy]

@xian
sorry bai if naglibug ka...hehehe...ako man gud gi usa ug tubag imung arguments ug kausa...
or basin wala lang pud nako matarong ug explain...

basta bai, no intentions jud to violate your belief ha..if ever i have, sorry kaau..
anyway ang akong point ra jud is why conclude that God does not exist when the possibilities that He does are parallel?..
im not saying this ha as if sakto jud ko...same principle of the unkown applies to us pud mga mutoo ug Ginoo...
'cause after all, who knows the absolute truth? nobody...

ang difference lang jud bai,with aetheism if God is true,if eternal disposition like heaven and hell were true...
if it is true that our unbelief will lead us away from God(assuming he is real)..
then it would be a great loss on our part sa wala pagtuo...

mao nag cite ko ug examples about our undying longing..'cause one way or another we all felt this longing(in the sense that we always strive to do better).kay with the reality that our last breath is the end of us(assuming that there's no afterlife) and tomorrow has an ending(kay mamatay man jud ta)...then these feelings doesnt make sense unless everlasting really does exist.

of course we should not blindly believe lang pud, it is right to put everything to test,
criticize,suspend judgement, investigate, search...mao cge ko apologize about disagreeing with you
it's because with aetheism we may be happy in this life but what about the hereafter?good if dili tinuod ha..
with aetheism para lang jud nako ha...pasayloa jud ko..but it seem like a dead end(in the sense that it does not consider possibilities about the existence of God and hereafter)..

like many theists, we are not sure if what we believe is true but we are sure about what we believe...
aetheists i believe are also like that...firm about what they believed in..but what happens if what you believe in is entirely different with the truth? you know God and the after life?

pasensya bro ha if naa koy mga pangutana nga basin mahasol ka..hehehehe
but i think it is necessary para ma stress out atong point
again bro, it is not you personally that i question because i don't have the right to do so
but it is the POV

[noy]

Professor: You are a Christian, aren’t you, son?
Student: Yes, sir.
Professor: So, you believe in GOD?
Student: Absolutely, sir.
Professor: Is GOD good?
Student: Sure.
Professor: Is GOD all-powerful?
Student: Yes.
Professor: My brother died of Cancer even though he prayed to GOD to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But GOD didn’t. How is this GOD good then? Hmm?
(Student was silent)
Professor: You can’t answer, can you? Let’s start again, young fellow. Is GOD good?
Student: Yes.
Professor: Is Satan good?
Student: No.
Professor: Where does Satan come from?
Student: From… GOD…
Professor: That’s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student: Yes.
Professor: Evil is everywhere, isn’t it? And GOD did make everything? Correct?
Student: Yes.
Professor: So who created evil?
(Student did not answer)
Professor: Is there Sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don’t they?
Student: Yes, sir.
Professor: So, who created them?
(Student had no answer)
Professor: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son… Have you ever seen GOD?
Student: No, sir.
Professor: Tell us if you have ever heard your GOD?
Student: No, sir.
Professor: Have you ever felt your GOD, tasted your GOD, smelt your GOD? Have you ever had any sensory perception of GOD for that matter?
Student: No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.
Professor: Yet you still believe in HIM?
Student: Yes.
Professor: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.
Professor: Yes, faith. And that is the problem science has.
Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Professor: Yes.
Student: And is there such a thing as cold?
Professor: Yes.
Student: No, sir. There isn’t.
(The lecture theatre became very quiet with this turn of events )
Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don’t have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.
(There was pin-drop silence in the lecture theater)
Student: What about darkness, professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Professor: Yes. What is night if there isn’t darkness?
Student: You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light… But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness, isn’t it? In reality, darkness isn’t. If it is, were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?
Professor: So what is the point you are making, young man?
Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Professor: Flawed? Can you explain how?
Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good GOD and a bad GOD. You are viewing the concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never been0seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?
Professor: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.
Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The professor shook his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument was going)
Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and can not even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?
(The class was in uproar)
Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor’s brain?
(The class broke out into laughter)
Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor’s brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so? So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room was silent. The professor stared at the student, his face unfathomable)
Professor: I guess you’ll have to take them on faith, son.
Student: That is it sir… exactly! The link between man and GOD is FAITH. That is all that keeps things alive and moving.

nice kaau ni @digitalartistbem...moa man ning conversation daw between young einstein and his prof diba?
pero di man daw ni tinuod nga ning exist ni nga conversation..di pud nuon ko sure...hehehe
and einsteni was not a Christian, he was jewish pud..
but anyways, its the thought that counts...thanks for posting...

mao sad jud, there are certainly things we need to take by faith

which reminds me sa kadtong serenity prayer nga wala ko kahibaw kinsa nag himu..hehe

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference."

[Xian120]

@xian
sorry bai if naglibug ka...hehehe...ako man gud gi usa ug tubag imung arguments ug kausa...
or basin wala lang pud nako matarong ug explain...

basta bai, no intentions jud to violate your belief ha..if ever i have, sorry kaau..
anyway ang akong point ra jud is why conclude that God does not exist when the possibilities that He does are parallel?..
im not saying this ha as if sakto jud ko...same principle of the unkown applies to us pud mga mutoo ug Ginoo...
'cause after all, who knows the absolute thruth? nobody...

ang difference lang jud bai,with aetheism if God is true,if eternal disposition like heaven and hell were true...
if it is true that our unbelief will lead us away from God(assuming he is real)..
then it would be a great loss on our part sa wala pagtuo...

mao nag cite ko ug examples about our undying longing..'cause one way or another we all felt this longing(in the sense that we always strive to do better)..so if our last breath is the end of us, and if tomorrow has an ending...then these feelings doesnt make sense unless everlasting really does exist..

of course we should not blindly believe lang pud, it is right to put everything to test,
criticize,suspend judgement, investigate, search...mao cge ko apologize about disagreeing with you
it's because with aetheism we may be happy in this life but what about the hereafter?good if dili tinuod ha..
with aetheism para lang jud nako ha...pasayloa jud ko..but it seem like a dead end(in the sense that it doesn not consider possibilities about the existence of God and hereafter)...

like many thests, we are not sure if what we believe is true though we are sure about what we believe...
aetheists i believe are also like that...firm about what they believe in..but what happens if what you believe in is entirely different with the truth? you know God and the after life?

pasensya bro ha if naa koy mga pangutana nga basin mahasol ka..hehehehe
but i think it is necessary para ma stress out atong point
again bro, it is not you personally that i question because i don't have the right to do so
but it is the POV

ok ra uy dont apologize too much.. makasabot man ko kay debate2 mani.. go as to where your words might take you

i think parihas ni atong Pascal's wager which goes as follows:

1. "God is, or He is not"
2. A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
3. According to reason, you can defend either of the propositions.
4. You must wager. (It's not optional.)
5. Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
6. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.

meaning to say that if you chose to believe in God there are a lot to gain and nothing to lose if ever God is true.
however if you chose to not believe in God there is nothing to gain ang plenty to lose if ever God is true..
so with that proposition it is now then safe to chose to believe in God..
but you see if i choose to believe in God because of fear (of hell) is no better than unbelief, coz this seems to me a blind faith..

What if there is an afterlife? nirvana and heaven? then i would ask God to show me everything. i want to know.. the truth maybe far more different from what we know now, and man is begging to know it. the ultimate quest for knowledge ends in the beginning of time itself, and if there's a creator then he can answer that question, then ill ask him that question, but unless he doesnt show himself to me i will choose to believe in what he is showing me so far..

the thought of an atheist does not involve eternity, or life after death, it simply does not exist.. when we die we die.. it's an uncomfortable form of thought to conceive but once you learn to live with the idea then you learn to appreciate life as it is with no thought of an afterlife consequence or reward.. ultimate freedom of thought..

[Xian120]

nice kaau ni @digitalartistbem...moa man ning conversation daw between young einstein and his prof diba?
pero di man daw ni tinuod nga ning exist ni nga conversation..di pud nuon ko sure...hehehe
and einsteni was not a Christian, he was jewish pud..
but anyways, its the thought that counts...thanks for posting...

mao sad jud, there are certainly things we need to take by faith

which reminds me sa kadtong serenity prayer nga wala ko kahibaw kinsa nag himu..hehe

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference."

ya dili ni tinuod,. but i think naay phrases nga lahi sa kang einstein nga story kay about man to ug evil2, either mao ni ang orig or gi revise ni para mahimong stronger ang argument

but nituo cguro ni syag Ginoo sauna like any Jewish child,..

[digitalartistbem]

nice kaau ni @digitalartistbem...moa man ning conversation daw between young einstein and his prof diba?
pero di man daw ni tinuod nga ning exist ni nga conversation..di pud nuon ko sure...hehehe
and einsteni was not a Christian, he was jewish pud..
but anyways, its the thought that counts...thanks for posting...

mao sad jud, there are certainly things we need to take by faith

which reminds me sa kadtong serenity prayer nga wala ko kahibaw kinsa nag himu..hehe

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference."

Yup, mao ni kay einstein ug iyaha daw'ng professor. Di daw tinuod nga si einstein to, pero ganahan lng ko sa convo, naa unod..hehehe

And I definitely agree jud "The link between man and GOD is FAITH".

[noy]

ok ra uy dont apologize too much.. makasabot man ko kay debate2 mani.. go as to where your words might take you

i think parihas ni atong Pascal's wager which goes as follows:

1. "God is, or He is not"
2. A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
3. According to reason, you can defend either of the propositions.
4. You must wager. (It's not optional.)
5. Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
6. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.

meaning to say that if you chose to believe in God there are a lot to gain and nothing to lose if ever God is true.
however if you chose to not believe in God there is nothing to gain ang plenty to lose if ever God is true..
so with that proposition it is now then safe to chose to believe in God..
but you see if i choose to believe in God because of fear (of hell) is no better than unbelief, coz this seems to me a blind faith..

What if there is an afterlife? nirvana and heaven? then i would ask God to show me everything. i want to know.. the truth maybe far more different from what we know now, and man is begging to know it. the ultimate quest for knowledge ends in the beginning of time itself, and if there's a creator then he can answer that question, then ill ask him that question, but unless he doesnt show himself to me i will choose to believe in what he is showing me so far..

the thought of an atheist does not involve eternity, or life after death, it simply does not exist.. when we die we die.. it's an uncomfortable form of thought to conceive but once you learn to live with the idea then you learn to appreciate life as it is with no thought of an afterlife consequence or reward.. ultimate freedom of thought..

thanks bai kay you did not take the arguments negatively. mao ganahan jud ko magkiglalis nimu..Lol

it is true bai that the fear of hell and the exciement for heaven is always there once motuo ta anang mga butanga..for sure ka relate ka as you were once a believer pud.
but it is not mainly the reason for my belief,akoa lang ha kay basin naay uban mao nituo lang kay nahadlok..hehehe
though baptized in the Christian faith, had a little knowledge about heaven and hell..but that's it...
so for me it was no big deal..para nako life is hell already so what's the difference...hehehe...
the main reason why i believe in Jesus is out of gratitude..and thankfulness for the new life..
as in the midst of my chaotic youthful days, though no divine influence i too longed for a change, hoped for a new life and a new start..failed at numerous attempts but only pulled it through after surrendering to God...
for me it true that we find freedom from surrendering
bible knowledge,religion and Christianity knowledge
even the idea of gaining all and loosing nothing in believing sinked in later...
i first believed without sufficient knowledge about God...but it was just Him that left untried
so i would have to disagree that the belief in God creates barriers about free thinking..
for a wise man once said, freedom does not consist of being able to do what we want
but being able to do what we ought..i take side on this qoutation 'cause in Christianity it is where i found peace
and freedom in thoughts. which is clearly the opposite with your POV..
this is real enough for me maybe just as much as yours is...so therefore the possibilities are parallel...

now, regarding pascal's wager..i see it as a logical warning about what to believe...
'cause it may sound condemning but i think we can both agree that it does make sense..
i agree that believing a certain belief out of fear is a blind faith..but apparently fear and ignorance is not the only reason why people believe.