Popular Philippine communist rebel is dead

[monroy]

No one here, I believe, would condone any act that would render civilians as "tools" or "means to an end", but one cannot deny that in the struggle to "assert who has the correct/right system in place", those who are caught in the crossfire are the ones who actually suffer the most. The problem is, since those in power are, well, IN POWER, they have the MEANS to sometimes SKEW and DISTORT media reports (some of these people in power OWN NEWSPAPERS and TV stations) in order to show that revolutionary movements are NOTHING BUT terrorists and house burners and are "killing without reason, and taxing just for their own stomachs." I mean, if you were in power, wouldn't you also FIND ANY MEANS in order to make sure that these so-called revolutionaries are PAINTED as villains, in order that your own agenda may be in place?

If I were in power, I'd do my best to make this country great. I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but since the question was directed at me, I answer it. I wouldn't need to paint the revolutionaries as villains because they are already doing a very good job of it themselves.

And as thus, this is a good time to ask, since you have said that you have visited countries and such...have you ever visited a real NPA camp, and have you been on one of their patrols and actually have seen for yourself, first hand, accounts of these wanton bandit-like acts and meaningless aggression? If you didn't know, the first thing taught to an NPA operative is NOT to wield a weapon, but to WIELD a BOOK--the revolutionary teacher is always the most important aspect of the revolution--without PROPER EDUCATION, a revolt will NEVER succeed.

-RODION

I somehow feel we aren't talking about the same thing when we say 'education'. By educate I mean to learn math, science, language basically a wide variety of things that people in rich, successful nations learn, because I want our country to become like them. I don't mean educate as in learn one-track propaganda. I mean an education, in the ordinary sense and meaning of the word, not inculcation. Satanists have books that spread their philosophy too, that doesn't make it an education, it makes it merely a perspective.

And no, I haven't been to an NPA camp, so I relied merely on the expertise of what you said in your post. You said they are educating people, by educating them with revolutionary philosophy. In my view, that isn't much of an education at all, as it serves only to agitate them and bring them towards a cause that will probably only result in their death.

When I say an education, I mean a real one that will help people succeed in the real world and make this country great. Not an education that ponders why others are better off and demands that everyone be brought to the same level. I mean an education that inspire people to better themselves, not make them bitter and resent everyone more successful than themselves. To be a person, not a crab.

[rodsky]

I wouldn't need to paint the revolutionaries as villains because they are already doing a very good job of it themselves.

And you trust news reports wholeheartedly, that say they did this "house burning" or "summary execution"? Tell me, would you also wholeheartedly believe a news report from FOX NEWS? See? It's the same exact thing.

I somehow feel we aren't talking about the same thing when we say 'education'. By educate I mean to learn math, science, language basically a wide variety of things that people in rich, successful nations learn, because I want our country to become like them. I don't mean educate as in learn one-track propaganda. I mean an education, in the ordinary sense and meaning of the word, not inculcation. Satanists have books that spread their philosophy too, that doesn't make it an education, it makes it merely a perspective.

And no, I haven't been to an NPA camp, so I relied merely on the expertise of what you said in your post. You said they are educating people, by educating them with revolutionary philosophy. In my view, that isn't much of an education at all, as it serves only to agitate them and bring them towards a cause that will probably only result in their death.

When I say an education, I mean a real one that will help people succeed in the real world and make this country great. Not an education that ponders why others are better off and demands that everyone be brought to the same level. I mean an education that inspire people to better themselves, not make them bitter and resent everyone more successful than themselves. To be a person, not a crab.

This is precisely my point. You are not even aware that the REAL cadres who go into the mountains (like what breinrules mentioned, about that nurse who decided to go into the mountains--are we all supposed to just AUTOMATICALLY assume what the media/government forces said, that she was "brainwashed"? Isn't that rather contradictory? That they did admitted she was intelligent and smart, yet she was EASILY brainwashed into thinking about joining the armed struggle?) are gifted, intelligent, and smart people who, in their passion to liberate these people from ignorance, do come into the mountains armed with the zest to teach people not only revolutionary thought, but those same exact things you mention, starting off with mathematics, because how else will a farmer know that a landowner is milking him of earnings which are supposed to be his, if he has NO SOLID FOUNDATION in basic arithmetic?

Let's face it--propaganda occurs on BOTH sides, but wouldn't you agree that, if one side has more power than the other side, then the chances of THEIR propaganda filtering through the channels will occur MORE than the propaganda being spread by the weaker side?

-RODION

[ghostie2472]

First, if the news article is to be believed, the military (his enemies in the battlefield) offered to give him medical assistance. Now that, sir, is a sign of respect. It was never mentioned that he should be given a medal. If his 'personal' enemies were decent enough to offer him help then I think there's more to the guy than what we know.

And that exactly makes us Filipinos. Enemies on the battlefield but we are always willing to help our "enemies" when they need it.

I don't know much about these people but as far as I know, they became rebels because they didn't like how the government was running things. They were fighting what they believe was right and, wrong as most people see it, we have to respect it.

[KlaytoN]

No one here, I believe, would condone any act that would render civilians as "tools" or "means to an end", but one cannot deny that in the struggle to "assert who has the correct/right system in place", those who are caught in the crossfire are the ones who actually suffer the most. The problem is, since those in power are, well, IN POWER, they have the MEANS to sometimes SKEW and DISTORT media reports (some of these people in power OWN NEWSPAPERS and TV stations) in order to show that revolutionary movements are NOTHING BUT terrorists and house burners and are "killing without reason, and taxing just for their own stomachs." I mean, if you were in power, wouldn't you also FIND ANY MEANS in order to make sure that these so-called revolutionaries are PAINTED as villains, in order that your own agenda may be in place?

-RODION

Quite true. Reminds me of Terry Jones- Barbarian Series..

History is written by the victors- Winston Churchill

[monroy]

And you trust news reports wholeheartedly, that say they did this "house burning" or "summary execution"? Tell me, would you also wholeheartedly believe a news report from FOX NEWS? See? It's the same exact thing.

Nah I was referring to one of the posters here who had personally experienced getting his house burned down by the NPA. I like first-hand experiences like that rather than just trust the news, though unlike you I still believe that media is independent as opposed to being just a propaganda piece for the government as you seem to think.

This is precisely my point. You are not even aware that the REAL cadres who go into the mountains (like what breinrules mentioned, about that nurse who decided to go into the mountains--are we all supposed to just AUTOMATICALLY assume what the media/government forces said, that she was "brainwashed"? Isn't that rather contradictory? That they did admitted she was intelligent and smart, yet she was EASILY brainwashed into thinking about joining the armed struggle?) are gifted, intelligent, and smart people who, in their passion to liberate these people from ignorance, do come into the mountains armed with the zest to teach people not only revolutionary thought, but those same exact things you mention, starting off with mathematics, because how else will a farmer know that a landowner is milking him of earnings which are supposed to be his, if he has NO SOLID FOUNDATION in basic arithmetic?

From NPA perspective then, educations primary purpose is to indoctrinate envy and resentment towards the landowner so that ideological goals can be achieved. From my perspective, education's purpose should be to help people succeed and move everyone forward, both farmers and landowners through skill, innovation and competition. The NPA teach that life is a zero-sum game, for one group of people to succeed, another group (landowners) have to be destroyed. A real education teaches that life can be a win-win situation, that you can succeed personally and by your success you can make other people succeed and improve their lives as well. Forget about equal success, such a thing will never happen. Think about it as a race, in the NPA's view the only way to win a race is to tackle the person in front of you and make them fall to the ground and break their neck. The way I see it, the way to win a race is to equip yourself with the tools and training to run faster than the person in front of you. At the end of the race, both of you are still ahead of where you were before, and the best part is both of you are still alive. See the difference?

Let's face it--propaganda occurs on BOTH sides, but wouldn't you agree that, if one side has more power than the other side, then the chances of THEIR propaganda filtering through the channels will occur MORE than the propaganda being spread by the weaker side?

-RODION

What is propaganda but the act of spreading information as how one sees it? It doesn't say anything at all about whether the information is true or false. Both sides may engage in propaganda, that doesn't mean both sides are correct all the time.

[rodsky]

From NPA perspective then, educations primary purpose is to indoctrinate envy and resentment towards the landowner so that ideological goals can be achieved. From my perspective, education's purpose should be to help people succeed and move everyone forward, both farmers and landowners through skill, innovation and competition. The NPA teach that life is a zero-sum game, for one group of people to succeed, another group (landowners) have to be destroyed. A real education teaches that life can be a win-win situation, that you can succeed personally and by your success you can make other people succeed and improve their lives as well. Forget about equal success, such a thing will never happen. Think about it as a race, in the NPA's view the only way to win a race is to tackle the person in front of you and make them fall to the ground and break their neck. The way I see it, the way to win a race is to run faster than the person in front of you. At the end of the race, both of you are still ahead of where you were before, and the best part is both of you are still alive. See the difference?

I find it ironic to say this, but you seem to live in an ideal world where the rich and elite are mostly "good" and "mean no harm"--far from the truth. Your views WILL actually WORK, PROVIDED there is an EQUAL PLAYING FIELD, but how can you have an equal playing field when one side already "pre-prepared" things so that it benefits them rather than the majority? The ones in power will NATURALLY make it SEEM as if there's a level playing field when in fact, they are so far ahead than the rest and that's why they hide their smirk each time someone utters the phrase "Under capitalism and free enterprise, everyone will have an EQUAL chance..."

I really suggest you first read the PSR. If you haven't read it, we have no basis for discussion, because all that you will be posting here are views that are bereft of the POV of WHY these people are conducting the struggle IN THE FIRST PLACE. These aren't crazy, misguided, troublemakers that the ones in power want you to see them--they have REASON to do what they feel they need to do, and unless you examine these reasons with a FREE THINKING MIND, instead of the mind that the ones in power want you to have, then there is no basis for proper and fair discussion.

-RODION

[monroy]

I find it ironic to say this, but you seem to live in an ideal world where the rich and elite are mostly "good" and "mean no harm"--far from the truth. Your views WILL actually WORK, PROVIDED there is an EQUAL PLAYING FIELD, but how can you have an equal playing field when one side already "pre-prepared" things so that it benefits them rather than the majority? The ones in power will NATURALLY make it SEEM as if there's a level playing field when in fact, they are so far ahead than the rest and that's why they hide their smirk each time someone utters the phrase "Under capitalism and free enterprise, everyone will have an EQUAL chance..."

No, I don't assume at all that everyone who is rich is good. That's why I say the system is imperfect, but that doesn't mean it doesn't allow someone who isn't rich or elite from becoming rich. The means are there, limited as they are, for people to improve themselves. That's why I said that as bad as the government is, there is still some hope for people who know how to seize what opportunity has been provided to them. As bad as some public schools are, why is it some public school graduates go on to become rich and successful?

There will never, ever be a level playing field. And I dare you to show me a single communist country that has such a level playing field. In any game, there will be those who take advantage of the rules and those who play within the rules. It is harder, yes, to succeed if you follow all the rules that doesn't mean it's impossible. Otherwise how can a shoe-less immigrant from China go on to become the richest person in the country today? If that person had sat there and whined about how everyone is so far ahead of him and have so many advantages, then he'd never succeed and just keep being resentful. I mean can you imagine Henry Sy whining about how the Ayalas have it made? That would be counterproductive and just wasting time. Instead, he went on to build things for himself, instead of dreaming of the day he could destroy the Ayalas or take away their assets. That's why I say this can be a win-win situation and doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. Everyone can get ahead, regardless of where they start. Those who are ahead or born into wealth are usually prone to complacency anyway so you can overtake them through diligence.

No, I'm not saying capitalism gives everyone an equal chance but I can say that even our version of capitalism, as imperfect as it is, gives everyone a chance to succeed if they want to, and many do despite the odds. Of course, someone who inherited a lot of wealth is going to be in a better position to succeed, but that doesn't guarantee success in and of itself, neither does starting with no money at all guarantee that you won't ever succeed.

I really suggest you first read the PSR. If you haven't read it, we have no basis for discussion, because all that you will be posting here are views that are bereft of the POV of WHY these people are conducting the struggle IN THE FIRST PLACE. These aren't crazy, misguided, troublemakers that the ones in power want you to see them--they have REASON to do what they feel they need to do, and unless you examine these reasons with a FREE THINKING MIND, instead of the mind that the ones in power want you to have, then there is no basis for proper and fair discussion.

-RODION

First of all, you'll have to explain what is PSR cos I have no idea what those letters stand for. No guarantee that I'll read it though because I disagree with the pre-text that the other side in a debate has to read a book as demanded by the other side as a pre-condition to continuing the debate. If you don't want to continue with the argument of course, nobody can force you.

As it's getting late I'll just say one last thing in case you wanna end it here. As you said not everyone who is rich is good, you could also say that not everyone who is poor or claims to be for the poor is necessarily good either. Being rich or poor doesn't say whether a person is good or not. For me, a person is good if they want everyone to succeed and move our country forward. Even good intentions don't necessarily lead to good outcomes and some can be downright disastrous. What matters in the end is for our country to be great as it deserves.

[rodsky]

No, I don't assume at all that everyone who is rich is good. That's why I say the system is imperfect, but that doesn't mean it doesn't allow someone who isn't rich or elite from becoming rich. The means are there, limited as they are, for people to improve themselves. That's why I said that as bad as the government is, there is still some hope for people who know how to seize what opportunity has been provided to them. As bad as some public schools are, why is it some public school graduates go on to become rich and successful?

There will never, ever be a level playing field. And I dare you to show me a single communist country that has such a level playing field. In any game, there will be those who take advantage of the rules and those who play within the rules. It is harder, yes, to succeed if you follow all the rules that doesn't mean it's impossible. Otherwise how can a shoe-less immigrant from China go on to become the richest person in the country today? If that person had sat there and whined about how everyone is so far ahead of him and have so many advantages, then he'd never succeed and just keep being resentful.

No, I'm not saying capitalism gives everyone an equal chance but I can say that even our version of capitalism, as imperfect as it is, gives everyone a chance to succeed if they want to, and many do despite the odds. Of course, someone who inherited a lot of wealth is going to be in a better position to succeed, but that doesn't guarantee success in and of itself, neither does starting with no money at all guarantee that you won't ever succeed.

First of all, you'll have to explain what is PSR cos I have no idea what those letters stand for. No guarantee that I'll read it though because I disagree with the pre-text that the other side in a debate has to read a book as demanded by the other side as a pre-condition to continuing the debate. If you don't want to continue with the argument of course, nobody can force you.

In the course of our discussion, have I ever mentioned the necessity for the armed struggle to be a "communist" one? You see, most people, esp. the ones in power, like to use "scare" words, i.e. "communist", "godless", in order to instill fear of the idea among the populace. Did you know for instance that when Castro, Almieda, Guevara et al started the Cuban revolution, it wasn't even called a "communist" movement--it was simply the July 26 movement (26th of July Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), and being "communist" was just secondary--like the Philippine armed struggle, these are just labels--the bottom line is, there is indeed a layer of society in this country that are oppressed and are being exploited by the landed, and the reason why some individuals feel that this needs to be changed/altered, is because they felt that NO AMOUNT of LEGAL and PARLIAMENTARY efforts could bring about a RADICAL change to the way things are being treated, which is the fundamental reason why Castro et al did what they did.

The PSR stands for "Philippine Society and Revolution" by Amado Guerrero (Jose Ma Sison). A copy may be downloaded here:

Philippine Society and Revolution Downloads from Hotfiles, Rapidshare, and more! Nitro Downloads

(if you don't want to sign up to get the PDF, you can also access the entire book online here: http://reocities.com/CapitolHill/lobby/9949/ )

People in the revolutionary movement are smart people--the reason for them being in a revolution is simply because they felt that they have exhausted all legal avenues to bring about the change required so that the 96% of those being exploited will not experience the exploitation they've experienced ever since the late 1940's. That's all there is, labels are secondary--these are merely people fed up with all the sham politics and unbridled corruption going on in the current system and status quo.

-RODION

[AlbertCruz]

Like i asked before, if they take over... who will be the new elite?
And sick of how gov't officials who abuse their position to further their own business? If gthat were true, why attack and exploit the people. Media propaganda? Oh please, it seems many commies are delusional. Most normal people hate these scumbags not coz of the media but coz they know personally know someone or have heard from someone of the atrocities made by these animals.

And don't give me that crap that the sin of one can't represent the whole, if they can't even unite under one banner. The fact is its not for the country they are fighting for, its for themselves. Sick of corrupt officials? Then start assassinating them, they already have the resources... so either this commies are cowards are are too stupid to carry it out and the most ironic thing is if they do carry it out, they will actually be heroes.

[snifruz]

commie: let's hug china and kiss their @$$

oh wait, isn't china is now a capitalist country too? ... one more thing, US was yesterday, CHina's tommorrow...

summary: parehas ranang duha mao nga way gamit magcge mogyawyaw nga dili mo sa US kay imperialist, unsay tan-aw ninyu sa china, dili? pagsure mo ui.. di man pod maklaro nga dili mo fanatic ni mao zedong(whatever his name)...

ug gigamit pa lang ang huna2x ninyu sa pagtabang sa gagmayng taw, dili lang ARMAS ang tubag..para man kaha mo sa pilipinas nganung idamay pa man jud ang mga gagmayng taw like mga farmer..hasta kabaw inyung kwaon?

hoi ang inyung leader tua sa netherlands nagcgeg pamurikat(red district) nya kamo nagmintinar na lang ug kamote...lol