RELIGION....(part 2)

[mannyamador]

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4 - On Galileo...simplify yon lang nato....it symbolizes the struggle between science and religion, the medieval and the modern, or intellectual freedom versus institutional authority.

Actually, that is NOT what it was about. I suggest you read the articles posted by Dacs. You can even look up the issues on Wikipedia (hopefully no one defaces the article).

The Church's own astronomers and Copernicus -- a CATHOLIC monk -- could confirm much of Galielo's findings. Even Bellarmine -- a Catholic prelate -- also noted that if heliocentirsm could be proven, then popular notions of the meanings of the scriptiure verses you quoted would have to be changed. Note, I said popular notions, because the Church had no doctrine on those aspects of astronomy.

The REAL issues were:

• Galileo's personal relationships with the Church authorities and the scientific community of his day.
• Galileo's claim that his theories were proven when in fact at the time they were NOT. As YOU yourself said:
  
  "Moreover he was unable to give clinching proof for Copernican view. Galileo was convinced that
  he had the truth. But objectively he had no proof with which to win the allegiance even of
  open-minded men."
  
• Galileo's implied claim that he could personally interpret scripture, which of course he had no authority to do.

It is also very important to remember two facts:

• The Church NEVER had any dogma about heliocentirsm or geocentrism, or even those particular aspects astronomy in particular. It still doesn't have any. These are scientific matters, not theologicla or moral matters.
  
• It is the Church's teachings that we believe, and we follow Christ. The Church on earth, hpwever, is made up of sinners. The existence of sin, therefore, is NOT a reason to disbelieve the doctrines of the Church. If one can't make the distinction, then one is not thinking rationally. The messenger is distinct from the message.

God bless!

[oliver_g0110]

I have just watched the movie of Joseph Fiennes as Martin Luther and it was really an eye opener for the Catholics bya. anyways try watching LUTHER daw unya unsay ikasulti ninyo.

[mannyamador]

I would suggest you read a bit more about Martin Luther. The man was full of contradictions, prejudice, and was quite probably mad. He was although very immoral, but justified it in his doctrine of justification by faith alone. That says quite a lot, I think.

A very well-researched article on Martin Luther (note the very many the historical documentary references):
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09438b.htm

[mosimos]

The Duplessis Orphans - source Wikipedia

The Duplessis Orphans (French: les Orphelins de Duplessis) refers to a scandal where several thousand orphaned children were falsely certified as mentally ill by the government of the province of Quebec, Canada and confined to psychiatric institutions. It is widely regarded as the largest case of institution-based child abuse in Canadian history.

Orphanages and schools were the financial responsibility of the provincial government but funding for mental institutions was also provided by the government of Canada. Beginning in the 1940s and continuing into the 1960s, Quebec Premier Maurice Duplessis in cooperation with the Roman Catholic Church who ran the orphanages, developed a scheme to obtain Federal funding for thousands of children, most of whom had been orphaned through their abandonment by an unwed mother. In some cases the Catholic orphanages were relabelled as health-care facilities and in other cases the children were shipped from orphanages to existing mental asylums. Years later, long after these institutions were closed, the adult children who had survived them began to speak out about the harsh treatment and sexual abuse they were forced to endure at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church priests, nuns, and administrators. Reminiscent of the abuses by the Catholic-run Magdalen Asylums, members of the Duplessis Orphans claim that they were used as slave labour and subjected to extreme physical abuse for misbehaviour.

Thanks again for this one.

It makes me realize that the forgiveness is an act - not just a word. Who is Duplessis again?

brod dacs..i just hope that the thread starter could make similar realization..that keeping HATRED is VILE, as what Jesus taught. =)

Ahhhh. Labtikan man sa ta nimo brod tolstoi. I know Katoliko ka. In this thread, we are allies. But you know when it comes to GMA, I will take another approach. Cmon man. I cannot stomach GMA is doing. She is illegitimate President. Above all, she no longer respects the law and the Constitution that she is bound to uphold.

She is illegitimate. At least she should have the delicadeza in following and observing the law of the land.

[mannyamador]

I don't like GMA's actions either, but I think that is way off-topic for this thread.

[mosimos]

@dacs - read the article again...naa diha kinsa si Duplessis

you are welcome....ALL man ingon si bro mosimos...so i believe i-discuss sad ang scandals not just the achievements....kay matod pa nimo there are always two sides gud diba...?

Correct!

Did you try to research on both sides of the issue?

yeah... and the other side were all cover ups and denials as usual. lets just admit that some groups within your church is... mmmm... not so saintly as you thought. but it doesn't mean all of em... just some of em. certain orders, certain groups and individuals... the sad thing is the head of your church ang buhaton is to cover things up kay hadlok sila. para nila the image of holiness and infallibility is more important than the truth.

now who could trust a church like that?

lets bring up the galileo issue again... it took them hundred of years to acknowledge na na sayop sila... and if ever dili liberal gamay ang pope at the time m gonna bet my devils a$$ na dili gyud to nila angkonon na sayop.

how can you trust such hypocrites?

now again dili nako i-generalize but because ang church leaders mismo ang mu cover sa sayop sa ila kauban mura sila nag hatag ug rason and idea sa mga bad na elements within the church na untouchable sila.

Let me say my piece on the galileo thingy. The galileo incident was NOT AN OFFICIAL POSITION OF THE CHURCH!. Some bishops or religious people postulated that the earth is the center of the universe. But the Pope at that time ask for more research. Well, that call was overtaken by events when scientists proved that the Sun and not the earth is the center of the universe.

So it looked like it was the position of the Church.

I still maintain that in matters of FAITH AND MORALS, the Pope is infallible. Live with it.

[mannyamador]

The galileo incident was NOT AN OFFICIAL POSITION OF THE CHURCH!.

CORRECT! The Galielo case had nothing to do with Catholic doctrine. We should always remember that the judgments of ecclessiastical courts, papal encyclicals, etc. are NOT necessarily ex cathredra doctrinal statements. The tribunal in the Galileo case had NO authority to make any doctrinal determination whatsoever.

Church doctrine was defined by Christ and transmitted by His Apostles, and subsequently clarified by the Church Councils and ex cathedra statements of the Pope.

[baliguat]

grabe na man ni oy... pero na a japon ta makat onan.

[Gwynhuever]

@dacs....i would appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth....and dacs....i don't only have an open mind...i also have a very open heart...if you can't sense that ...then so be it....di ko nahan mag usik sa ako breath defending what i believe in.....

@mosimos - great thread....pero sad to say as usual you and your camp are hard core catholics....dili ko kasakay sa inyong utok ...nya di man ko gusto lantugi....so give up lang ko bro....di jud ko kakuha same satisfaction you get when you score a point in an argument....gusto jud ko objective and open discussion....so exit gracefully na lang ko bro....kapoi na man ni bro...if you notice the same people are contributing with the same ideas....

@mannyamador - i have already read a lot of your posts in the other thread...so i know the core of your belief...i also know how you handle discussions....you probably also know i am not the type to split hairs....so to each his own na lang ta bro....

i must say it takes a lot for me to lose my cool....but unfortunately discussions like this has a way of undermining my state of peacefulness...so inyo na lang ni bro....na human na ko sa point in my life nga makiglantugi and makig tigi sa opinion sa uban...i already expressed my views with this....and no matter what you say i still maintain I do not need religion...God is within me...and LOVE is the answer.

[mosimos]

Gwen, you feel bad because you resist the truth. A lot of people who are against the Catholic Church are angry people. They dont know why this Church of miter capped bishops, of structured dogmas and institutionalized spirituality ticks with the majority of the people in the world.

Simple gwen. Its the Church established by God. Believe me. I was an unbeliever before. Until something happened to me. It was some kind of an enlightenment. I was an unhappy person before I came to the Church. Now I am at peace.

As Saint Augustine has said, " My heart is restless, till it rest in You."