What's wrong with HB 3773? A LOT!!! (New Online Petitions added!)

[mannyamador]

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jueteng is more important......now, look at headlines, next thing you know, Noli is our president harharhar

Well, OK, tbey are ALL important issues. Noli as president? Awww mannn....

[bahmat]

When the detractors of HB 3773 are all up in arms about how this bill is anti-family, coercive, yada yada yada, consider this:

1. On the coercive part, it like a shot to the gut for these people when they think of the bill's almosy inevitable passing. But for some reason, it's perfectly acceptable for The Church to tell (ie: force) its members that ot's either It's Way or the highway. Many are the times that I have heard some priest scream from his pulpit that if you're a good Christian, you'll oppose this bill. Nevermind that some of the faithful may have their own opinions regarding this issue (pro or con). Nevermind if some might even consider it. If you're a Christian, you should drop the free will your God gave you and mindlessly follow the Church's way.

I thought we had the freedom to choose. Apparently, not all the time. Remember, the swastika is just a crooked cross.

2. On it being anti-family, I'm a little confused. Which is more anti-family? Devices that prevent conception or kids roaming the streets late at night cos their parents force them to beg or they have no where else to go?

I also find the argument that if you have 6 kids and you're only a jeepney driver, you should work hard to support your kids assinine. Hard work alone? Sounds unbeleivably easy. Might have been true 10-20 years ago, but not now with soaring prices and cost of living needs. Perhaps a few managed to make it work, but definitely not all.

As a PT, I've seen many such cases among my patients in many a public hospital. People too poor to feed themselves and yet have 7-10 kids whom they can barely keep alive. Why? Apparently because their parish priest told them to adhere to some ancient and impractical scripture of Go Out And Multiply. The horror at their stupidity is compounded by the question of, "Didn't you people ever stop to think that the Church may be wrong?"

But who am I kidding? In this country, to question the sometimes inflexible Mother Church would make you evil flat out.

3. The Church's way of the natural method is good? Doubtful. In the twenty plus years of my life, I have yet to see any good that has come out of this obviously faulty method.

So I don't get what the fuss here is all about. Regardless of the phrasing, the bill is not forcing anyone to comply in the same way China did to her own people. The Church and its moralists should consider that too. I mean, both sides can argue this way and that and present facts up to the wazzooo and they'd still be no closer to convincing the other side. I should know. Even after seeing everything the anti-HB 3773 people had to throw into the ring, I'm still not swayed by the idea to oppose what I see as a beneficial bill simply on the basis of morality.

Want an easier way? Respect people's intelligence and their free will. Give people the facts, then allow them to freely choose which way they want to take. No threats. No promises of eternal damnation.

Last time I checked, that's supposed to be the way we do things, since we're a democracy (or so I thought) and all.

[dacs]

Nevermind that some of the faithful may have their own opinions regarding this issue (pro or con).

You will be surprised how many different opinions are there among lay people for things that have not been infalliably defined - and it's okay. Yet, when something is infalliably defined, Catholics must give positive assent to this definition. When the Pope says that contraception is definitely evil and ex cathedra defines that this is so, Catholics are then bound to give positive assent to this definition. If you are not a Catholic, you are not bound to give the same assent. Yet, you are requested to read and study the reason behind the stand taken by the Church.

Have you considered her reasons? Have you read why the Church took such a stand? If not, then you are not in the position to criticize her in the absence of objective consideration of her argument.

Nevermind if some might even consider it. If you're a Christian, you should drop the free will your God gave you and mindlessly follow the Church's way.

You are stereo-typing Catholics. Catholics are big on free will. That is one of the reasons why we Catholics believe that you can still lose your salvation if you continue to sin (an act that can only be done if you have free will) after being baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Even in adulthood and after a conversion of the heart by re-affirming that Christ is your Lord and Savior, Catholics still believe that salvation can be forfeited by continuing to sin.

Mindlessly? Ever read any books by Catholic theologians? St. Thomas Aquinas? St. Augustine? St. John Chrysostom? St. Teresa of Avila? St. Therese of the Child Jesus? Ever heard of Scott Hahn, Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Fr. Thomas Dubay, Karl Adams, and others? I'm afraid you haven't; if you did, you would reconsider that 'mindless' thing.

I thought we had the freedom to choose. Apparently, not all the time. Remember, the swastika is just a crooked cross.

And a plus sign is just a minus sign with l in the middle. How childish can you get? You are bounded by law in order for you to be truly free. Without laws, what we have is not freedom but anarchy. Then you have to ask : who makes the law? Someone must have the authority to make the law.

2. On it being anti-family, I'm a little confused. Which is more anti-family? Devices that prevent conception or kids roaming the streets late at night cos their parents force them to beg or they have no where else to go?

Primo non nocere - first of all, do no harm. Every doctor took that oath. Yet, a contraceptive pill works against the normal process of the human body. Medicine are supposed to be taken to counter a bodily malfunction/defect; yet, contraceptive pills works to counter a normal process of the human body. Is getting pregnant a disease now?

I also find the argument that if you have 6 kids and you're only a jeepney driver, you should work hard to support your kids assinine. Hard work alone? Sounds unbeleivably easy. Might have been true 10-20 years ago, but not now with soaring prices and cost of living needs. Perhaps a few managed to make it work, but definitely not all.

Who ever told you that the Church endorsed such a condition? That is the very reason why we endorsed natural family planning because we want to make every couple responsible for their every action - and not chicken out on responsibility.

As a PT, I've seen many such cases among my patients in many a public hospital. People too poor to feed themselves and yet have 7-10 kids whom they can barely keep alive. Why? Apparently because their parish priest told them to adhere to some ancient and impractical scripture of Go Out And Multiply. The horror at their stupidity is compounded by the question of, "Didn't you people ever stop to think that the Church may be wrong?"

That would be unfortunate - if it did happen that the priest did actually endorse such condition. Have you considered that they may have just adhered to a part of the instruction of the priest and never took it upon themselves to be responsible enough to know and practice natural family planning? Did you ever stop to think that the Church may be right? Did you ever stop to think that the 'ancient and impractical scripture' is still a source of wisdom even to this day?

But who am I kidding? In this country, to question the sometimes inflexible Mother Church would make you evil flat out.

The Church cannot make you evil. You need no assistance on that one. The Church aims to sanctify you, to help you grow in sanctity. Yet, that path is never easy - as Christ has said. You have to discipline your body in order that God may be glorified in it.

3. The Church's way of the natural method is good? Doubtful. In the twenty plus years of my life, I have yet to see any good that has come out of this obviously faulty method.

You are not actually the reading type, are you? Let me assist you. Start from the very beginning of this topic and read every post. You may learn something about the NFP in your few hours of reading than in your 20+ years of life. At least, that's my suggestion.

So I don't get what the fuss here is all about. Regardless of the phrasing, the bill is not forcing anyone to comply in the same way China did to her own people. The Church and its moralists should consider that too. I mean, both sides can argue this way and that and present facts up to the wazzooo and they'd still be no closer to convincing the other side. I should know. Even after seeing everything the anti-HB 3773 people had to throw into the ring, I'm still not swayed by the idea to oppose what I see as a beneficial bill simply on the basis of morality.

So, on what basis will you be swayed? For my part, I believe that I can only present facts and logical and rational arguments without expecting to sway the other side. I understand that the war is not just between flesh but between principalities in spirit. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to let the grace abound the more where sin abound.

Want an easier way? Respect people's intelligence and their free will. Give people the facts, then allow them to freely choose which way they want to take. No threats. No promises of eternal damnation.

You have been given the facts; yet, you yourself turn a blind eye to it. Why then can you not respect the free will of those who choose freely to obey the Catholic Church? Are you saying that they are not free because they are obeying the Catholic Church? Or are you saying that these people have been lied to?

Last time I checked, that's supposed to be the way we do things, since we're a democracy (or so I thought) and all.

Have you been on a busy 4-lane street? You probably could see signs saying no jaywalking. Do all people who have free will choose rightly? Ever read a sign on a street that reads 'no overtaking'? Do all people who have free will follow the instruction? No, no. It is the job of the government to safeguard the people even against themselves.

You are a PT. Have you never encountered a lucid and rational person who would demand morphine to ease his body pains (yet you knew that increasing the dosage would be counterproductive and dangerous)? What will be the right thing to do? Remember : primo non nocere.

[mannyamador]

But for some reason, it's perfectly acceptable for The Church to tell (ie: force) its members that ot's either It's Way or the highway.

Duh... in case you haven't noticed. the Church CANNOT enforce "its way" with fines and imprisonment. HB3773 DOES! That pretty much sinks your argument.

2. On it being anti-family, I'm a little confused. Which is more anti-family? Devices that prevent conception or kids roaming the streets late at night cos their parents force them to beg or they have no where else to go?

This is a logical error known as a FALSE DILEMMA. You are NOT forced to choose between one or the other. Both are anti-family, and in case you havc en't noticed, the catholic Church does more for the poor ion this country than any other private organization. If you disagree, then I challenge you to name me even one sdingle private organization that operates more hospitlas, orphanages, feeding centers, human rights monitors, livelihood programs, counselling centers. etc. You can't, can you? I figured as much. Another assinine argument to the bottom.

By the way, HB3773 WON'T solve the problems of kids begging in the streets. That's because poverty is NOT caused by overpopulation. It's caused by injustice and bad governance. HB3773 does NOTHING to solve these/

You can't seem to tell the difference between the Church's well-reasoned arguments and the government's "overpopulation" scare. The Church has facts to back up its case. The population doomsayers have nothing but anecdots and bad reasoning. Maybe if you take off your blinders and try THINKING you'll see better.

[darkwing]

I still say laws in this country are just becoming suggestions, we have enough laws, but not enough will to enforce them...

[mannyamador]

I still say laws in this country are just becoming suggestions, we have enough laws, but not enough will to enforce them...

I agree. That's another problem we have to deal with too. And proposing more bad laws like HB 3773 makes it even harder.

[mannyamador]

[mannyamador]

Pro-lifers claim victory at UN population conference
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=36553

New York, Apr. 15 (C-fam.org/CWNews.com) - The UN Commission on
Population and Development (CPD) ended its annual session on Wednesday
and pro-life groups are claiming a victory. The UN organizers and allied
pro-abortion non-governmental organizations had hoped to use the
conference outcome document to advance abortion-on-demand, specifically
through adoption of the phrase "reproductive health care services." A
coalition of regionally diverse nations including the US, Costa Rica, and
Egypt banded together and stopped them.

In preparation for the 38th session of the CPD the UN Secretary-General
Kofi Annan had issued reports asking for "universal voluntary access to a
full range of reproductive health care information and services." The UN
Population Fund (UNFPA) joined with pro-abortion lobby groups to call for
"universal access to sexual and reproductive health services and
programs." In UN terminology, "reproductive services" includes the
availability of abortion.

The draft resolutions prepared at the start of the conference by Alfredo
Chuquihuara of Peru, the outgoing CPD chair, urged governments to provide
"sexual and reproductive health care services" and stressed the
importance of promoting "reproductive health and rights." The drafts also
unequivocally reaffirmed the outcome document of the 1994 International
Conference on Population and Development (ICPD) agreed to at Cairo. The
Cairo document refers to "reproductive rights" and "reproductive health"
and has been used by UN agencies and lobby groups to promote abortion.

Intense informal negotiations on the CPD drafts stretched throughout the
week, often lasting into the early hours of the morning. Because of the
pre-drafted language in the documents, one Holy See official described
the negotiations as "starting with the knife in your stomach and seeing
how far you can pull it out."

Sustained opposition by the United States and numerous developing
countries at last led to the removal of references to "reproductive
rights" and of the word "services" in connection with "sexual and
reproductive health." Moreover, the reaffirmation of Cairo was qualified
by a reference to a document containing the reservations of many
countries stating that the Cairo conference does not create a right to
abortion.

This is the second victory for pro-life forces at the UN in as many
months. At the Commission on the Status of Women in March, the United
States forced numerous left-wing governments and pro-abortion NGOs to
admit that the Beijing Platform for Action also did not create a right to
abortion.

[mannyamador]

[K]

Mr. Amador,

The depth of your knowledge of the debate on the HB 3773 is impressive. Would you have a blog? If not, I think you should have one. I'm pretty sure it would be much more effective way of getting this info to a wider audience. They are quite powerful once you get to attract a solid base of readers. The resignation of Dan Rather, popular CBS reporter, was started by the clammoring of bloggers after presenting what they percieved to be a biased report based on allegedly forged documents.

Here what seem to be the two most popular blogs from the Philippines:
http://www.houseonahill.net/
http://www.quezon.ph/blog/

The owner of the first blog seems to be for the bill. I'm not sure about Quezon's stance.