RELIGION....(part 2)

[fingolfin]

---

..and oh, i dont have to prove it since everywhere you look you'll see these shameful acts.

[dacs]

sadly the person who embodies every religious organization are mere mortals, bound to commit evil deeds..

Watch what you are writing. Â*Contrast this statement with your statement below that reads : 'i am an RC, but i firmly beleive that Jesus Christ is the true religion. sic' Â*You are saying then that Jesus Christ is mere mortal, bound to commit evil deeds. Â*You are then not a Roman Catholic - even if you believe you are. Â*The Catholic Church believes and proclaims that she is founded by Jesus Christ Himself who commissioned her to make disciples of all nations. Â*Christ is the 'Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God' (John 1:1).

thus religion on this aspect is certainly bound to be flawed no matter how you cover up these realities.

Who is covering up? Â*I have defined for you what religion is as how it is understood by early Christians. Â*Yet, you insist on your own understanding and 'cover up' the witness given by these prominent Christians.

i am an RC, but i firmly beleive that Jesus Christ is the true religion. sic

Let me quote paragraphs 2088 and 2089 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Â*Please read:

2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

The phrase 'Jesus is the true religion' need further elaboration. Â*Only when we can reasonably be sure of what you mean about that statement can we proceed with further discussion.

[dacs]

..and are those perversions being done by the so called holy-man a christian act I generalize, you might say, coz that's what's happening right now. It's hard to find honest priest these days. I have this friend whose father is a priest, every year they get the latest model of their favourtie car, the Mitsubishi Lancer, now tell me, where do they get the monetary muscle to finance such yearly update on cars.

You mention only one.Â* Is there only one priest around the world?Â* If you know of this thing happening, you have an obligation to inform the bishop.Â* You yourself is in sin by omission, by not doing what is right.Â* Are you going to be a Pharisee who would not lift a hand to right what is wrong?Â* I'll ask you again : are you going to be the judge of your fellowmen?Â* That sure ain't Christian.

Priest nowadays dont know the meaning of "virtue of poverty".

How many priests have you known?Â* I sure knew a lot who live their vocation and struggle everyday with temptation.Â* I knew a lot of priests who gave up a life of comfort to serve.Â* Remember the words of our Lord - 'let him who has no sin casts the first stone'?Â* Are you sure you have no sin so that you can condemn another person?

They have with them top of the line lap-tops, they equip themselves with high-end mobile phones. Where does the money come from ??

Again, you are sinning by omitting to do the right thing.Â* Report that to the bishop.Â* If you want, you can mail your complaint to me.Â* Be sure to document everything you knew, and be sure that you are ready to stand by that affidavit.Â* If you don't, you have become just one of the gossips.Â* A person's reputation should never be tried by acclaimation but by the evidence that could be presented for the public to peruse.

[dacs]

..and oh, i dont have to prove it since everywhere you look you'll see these shameful acts.

Everywhere?!

You sure live in a very filthy place. Some words of advice - get out of there!

I sure don't have that problem in my parish.

[tolstoi]

sadly the person who embodies every religious organization are mere mortals, bound to commit evil deeds..

Watch what you are writing. Contrast this statement with your statement below that reads : 'i am an RC, but i firmly beleive that Jesus Christ is the true religion. sic' You are saying then that Jesus Christ is mere mortal, bound to commit evil deeds. You are then not a Roman Catholic - even if you believe you are. The Catholic Church believes and proclaims that she is founded by Jesus Christ Himself who commissioned her to make disciples of all nations. Christ is the 'Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God' (John 1:1).

you're twisting my arguments to your advantage..of course that is not what i meant..what i am implying is that the mortals [priests/nuns/bishops..etc] who arecurrently heading the RC Religion [which is founded by Jesus Christ] are bound to commit evil deeds, thus the religion in general is bound to be flawed...

True, Jesus Christ is the founder of RC, and He is not a mere mortal, He's a God. But the people HE commisioned to spread the good words to all nations, now these are mere MORTALS.

hmmm..is it really hard to accept the fact that we as human beings are bound to be flawed?

[fingolfin]

@dacs... that's the reason why we cant meet eye to eye. your parish is "lucky" enough to be void of those unfaithful priests while mine is full of them. And about that filing a formal complaint to the bishop or to whoever is of high authority to punish these unlawful priests, well, i dont want to waste my time on trying to eradicate them. All i ever say to them " let your souls burn in hell, if there is one "

...tolstoi is right, the so called leaders in religion are only humans and humans DO make mistakes.

[Cardinal Bunal]

True, Jesus Christ is the founder of RC, and He is not a mere mortal, He's a God. But the people HE commisioned to spread the good words to all nations, now these are mere MORTALS.

Jesus Christ founded the Christian religion which is recorded in the Scriptures and expressed through the church, the pillar and foundation of truth, through whom he speaks.

The people whom he commisioned to spread the Gospel yes, made mistakes but their teachings were infallible... but anyone who chooses to follow the principles of Christianity NEEDS grace and forgiveness from God because in a quest for holiness and perfection, imperfection is inevitable.

[dacs]

you're twisting my arguments to your advantage..of course that is not what i meant..what i am implying is that the mortals [priests/nuns/bishops..etc] who arecurrently heading the RC Religion [which is founded by Jesus Christ] are bound to commit evil deeds, thus the religion in general is bound to be flawed...

True, Jesus Christ is the founder of RC, and He is not a mere mortal, He's a God. But the people HE commisioned to spread the good words to all nations, now these are mere MORTALS.

The people Christ commissioned to spread the gospel to all nations are indeed mere mortals. Yet, with the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, no official teachings of the Catholic Church can be flawed. You have then to remember that, although there is a heirarchy in the Catholic Church, all are disciples of Christ.

I have twisted your words, bro. Instead, I interpreted them in the light of Catholic teachings since you claim to be Roman Catholic (is that the meaning of RC?). To say that the Christian religion could propagate errors is to say that Christ has not made good of His promise to be with His Church always and that the Holy Spirit will abide in her to guide her to all truth. Here is an excerpt of the article at the online Catholic Encyclopedia on the Church:

Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed. It is clear, too, that could the Church suffer substantial change, it would no longer be an instrument capable of accomplishing the work for which God called it in to being. He established it that it might be to all men the school of holiness. This it would cease to be if ever it could set up a false and corrupt moral standard. He established it to proclaim His revelation to the world, and charged it to warn all men that unless they accepted that message they must perish everlastingly. Could the Church, in defining the truths of revelation err in the smallest point, such a charge would be impossible. No body could enforce under such a penalty the acceptance of what might be erroneous. By the hierarchy and the sacraments, Christ, further, made the Church the depositary of the graces of the Passion. Were it to lose either of these, it could no longer dispense to men the treasures of grace.

The gift of indefectibility plainly does not guarantee each several part of the Church against heresy or apostasy. The promise is made to the corporate body. Individual Churches may become corrupt in morals, may fall into heresy, may even apostatize. Thus at the time of the Mohammedan conquests, whole populations renounced their faith; and the Church suffered similar losses in the sixteenth century. But the defection of isolated branches does not alter the character of the main stem. The society of Jesus Christ remains endowed with all the prerogatives bestowed on it by its Founder. Only to One particular Church is indefectibility assured, viz. to the See of Rome. To Peter, and in him to all his successors in the chief pastorate, Christ committed the task of confirming his brethren in the Faith (Luke, XXii, 32); and thus, to the Roman Church, as Cyprian says, "faithlessness cannot gain access" [Ep. lv (lix), ad Cornelium). The various bodies that have left the Church naturally deny its indefectibility. Their plea for separation rests in each case on the supposed fact that the main body of Christians has fallen so far from primitive truth, or from the purity of Christian morals, that the formation of a separate organization is not only desirable but necessary. Those who are called on to defend this plea endeavour in various ways to reconcile it with Christ's promise. Some, as seen above (VII), have recourse to the hypothesis of an indefectible invisible Church. The Right Rev. Charles Gore of Worcester, who may be regarded as the representative of high-class Anglicanism, prefers a different solution. In his controversy with Canon Richardson, he adopted the position that while the Church will never fail to teach the whole truth as revealed, yet "errors of addition" may exist universally in its current teaching (see Richardson, Catholic Claims, Appendix). Such an explanation deprives Christ's words of all their meaning. A Church which at any period might conceivably teach, as of faith, doctrines which form no part of the deposit could never deliver her message to the world as the message of God. Men could reasonably urge in regard to any doctrine that it might be an "error of addition".

It was said above that one part of the Church's gift of indefectibility lies in her preservation from any substantial corruption in the sphere of morals. This supposes, not merely that she will always proclaim the perfect standard of morality bequeathed to her by her Founder, but also that in every age the lives of many of her children will be based on that sublime model. Only a supernatural principle of spiritual life could bring this about. Man's natural tendency is downwards. The force of every religious movement gradually spends itself; and the followers of great religious reformers tend in time to the level of their environment. According to the laws of unassisted human nature, it should have been thus with the society established by Christ. Yet history shows us that the Catholic Church possesses a power of reform from within, which has no parallel in any other religious organization. Again and again she produces saints, men imitating the virtues of Christ in an extraordinary degree, whose influence, spreading far and wide, gives fresh ardour even to those who reach a less heroic standard. Thus, to cite one or two well-known instances out of many that might be given: St. Dominic and St. Francis of Assisi rekindled the love of virtue in the men of the thirteenth century; St. Philip Neri and St. Ignatius Loyola accomplished a like work in the sixteenth century; St. Paul of the Cross and St. Alphonsus Liguori, in the eighteenth. No explanation suffices to account for this phenomenon save the Catholic doctrine that the Church is not a natural but a supernatural society, that the preservation of her moral life depends, not on any laws of human nature, but on the life-giving presence of the Holy Ghost. The Catholic and the Protestant principles of reform stand in sharp contrast the one to the other. Catholic reformers have one and all fallen back on the model set before them in the person of Christ and on the power of the Holy Ghost to breathe fresh life into the souls which He has regenerated. Protestant reformers have commenced their work by separation, and by this act have severed themselves from the very principle of life. No one of course would wish to deny that within the Protestant bodies there have been many men of great virtues. Yet it is not too much to assert that in every case their virtue has been nourished on what yet remained to them of Catholic belief and practice, and not on anything which they have received from Protestantism as such.

You can read a hint of this in Ephesians 5:25-27. Note that, in verse 32, St. Paul says that he is speaking in reference to Christ and the Church.

hmmm..is it really hard to accept the fact that we as human beings are bound to be flawed?

No, it is not. Human beings are flawed. What is very hard to believe is that Christ left us with a flawed guide to our salvation.

[dacs]

@dacs... that's the reason why we cant meet eye to eye. your parish is "lucky" enough to be void of those unfaithful priests while mine is full of them. And about that filing a formal complaint to the bishop or to whoever is of high authority to punish these unlawful priests, well, i dont want to waste my time on trying to eradicate them. All i ever say to them " let your souls burn in hell, if there is one "

I will ask you again : is that a Christian act? Have you read James 5:9 ('Do not complain, brothers, about one another, that you may not be judged...')? Why aren't you doing what the Bible says? Take a lesson from James 5:19- 20 ('My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back, he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.').

...tolstoi is right, the so called leaders in religion are only humans and humans DO make mistakes.

In their capacity as human beings, yes. In their capacity as guardians of the deposits of faith, the Pope together with the bishops cannot err.

[mannyamador]

You mean forged unhistorical and biased accounts...

But on who's authority is this assessment based? Your wacky personal interpretations? Sorry, that doesn't cut it. Anyone can make a claim. Youhave yet to even provide a shred of evidence to prove yours. And so far you have not been able to discredit the evidence we have provided.

I have proven many times especially in the locked predecessor to this thread that I am part of the remnant.

Yeah right. And my first name is Elvis.

You haven't been able to provide any proof so far. All you have are wacky personal interpretations of Bible verses. That's plain garbage. Anyone can put a spin to selected verses. Just like the INK. Your nutty theories are just as bad.