RELIGION

[fiel]

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i got dizzy by reading all the Bisaya...so i wont quote.

I just want to ask you guys what is really the point of having a religion?

Similar ra man gud cya to Government in the sense that religion tries to control how people act, kaso religion does this through conscience...that each being has a soul, that God exists and there is a life after death(in the case of Christianity)...while government does this by imposing rules/laws based on human nature.

Pero dba, they both have the same objective? for us humans to live harmoniously. my point is, politics ra man gihapon ang religion (maybe im making a hasty generalization here or at least this generalization applies only to dominant religions) and church-leaders are still human so subjective ra gihapon...and people need to wake-up and decipher what is the truth, dli dawat-kiti dawat lng because nang-galing sa church...that's why we have brains!...to reason, to choose, to decide, to conclude.

And dont you guys think nga one of the main reasons why the state of the Philippines is like this right now is because of religion pud? (well, of course you also have to consider our history, our colonizers, our society) I hate to name names but take Roman Catholic for example coz it's the one that's dominant.

Catholicism is a remnant of Medieval times man gud. That's why Renaissance came about, because of power-conflict between church and state...and the control of the church was waning na. We have to admit na tao lng din po ang church leaders and possible na ma-corrupt sila. And in some ways, the Catholicism that we have now, is still a remnant of the Catholicism of the Medieval times brought and forced to us by Spain. You also have to consider how it was taught during those 300 years. Christianity was forced on us...it was like a duty...which is not supposed to be.

What im driving is that, Nobody can stay in power for far too long. Ang religion kasi, hindi dapat itulad sa sapatos na nakasanayan na. For it to be effective, dapat constant care and upgrade para hindi maging lenient (which leads to regard the act of going to church and hearing sermons as a mere duty na lng, and not as an act of seeking the truth, aspiring for enlightenment and generally seeking for the higher good) yung followers.

I would just like to add, don't you think nga better if a person is taught what is morally right and what is morally wrong sa childhood years niya, and introduce religion na sa later point sa life niya wherein he can think for himself na? That way, he will take religion seriously kasi he chose to be in that religion. What do you guys think?

And bakit ba kailangan merong maring denominations sa religion?

yeah, you guys might call me naive but the truth is so simple. why should we complicate matters? and *nods* obvious na protestant ako...or at least noon...ngayon im searching.

[dacs]

you are the ones who said it pare... it doesnt mean na ang catholic lang kay naay dawn mass... ang mga protestant pud... hope you check first before saying anything ok?

Protestant dawn 'mass'? Are you sure? A Mass is a liturgy - a liturgy of the Word and of the Eucharist. Within the Mass is a sacrifice. Protestants do not believe in the sacrifice of the Mass; ergo, they do not have a Mass.

Check please.

[kobmat]

I would just like to add, don't you think nga better if a person is taught what is morally right and what is morally wrong sa childhood years niya, and introduce religion na sa later point sa life niya wherein he can think for himself na? That way, he will take religion seriously kasi he chose to be in that religion. What do you guys think?

I think this is good.. but we should not just make him choose which religion he wants but also if he wants one or not.

[dacs]

First of all, as much as possible i dont want to name any christian denominations existing because the fact is both catholic and non catholic denominations are not perfect but what im trying to say again and again nga one of these denominations are just doing most of the time complying on their weekend rituals without focusing mainly on the people if they have fully delivered the word of God or not.

So, what do you do in your church to know if they have fully delivered the word of God or not?

Now speaking of time sa ilang pagdeliver sa Word of God... if you try to check personally.... ambot kung kasabot mo sa akong gipasabot.... NAA JUY kalahian!!!

Of course! The Catholic mass had been here since the time of the apostles, while your practice has been here since your group was founded. The Catholic Church practices what had been handed down by the apostles - the breaking of the bread of which St. Paul referred to as 'a feast' (1 Corinthians 5:7-. This is the same bread and wine that St. Paul referred to in 1 Corinthians 11:26-30. Please note that, in 1 Corinthians 11:26-30, to be adjudged guilty of someone's 'body and blood' is a clear reference to murder. How could anyone be guilty of murder for violating a 'mere symbol' - as Protestants believe their 'crackers and grape juice' to be?

Ang ako lang kay it seems people are just taking the way it is because mao naman nay naandan nila! NABUTA lang sila sa kamatooran nga ang ilang gisimbahan dili makahatag nila og spiritual fulfillment mostly!

Is it possible that you are the one who is blind to the truth? Do you equate truth as to how people received it or how it was presented? Is spiritual fulfillment a matter of how good the sermon is? I thought it is the personal relationship to Christ that will give spiritual fulfillment. Has it changed?

Now sa katong gaingon nga murag perfect akong simbahan.... ako nanang ginaexplain sa una nakong mga post nga walay simbahan nga perfect.... but you cant help compare which church is best for your soul most of the time!!!

What happens to Matthew 5:48? Did not Jesus identify himself with the church in Acts 9:4-5? Is Jesus not perfect? If He is, is His body - the Church - perfect also?

Cge let's talk about the priest or the pastors... we should admit the fact that they are all humans they commit mistakes because humans commits mistake no matter how religious or prayerful they are.... but if you look closely.... which has the worst counts and situations nga masayop sila....

It works both ways. Which church should suffer the most virulent attack by the devil? The true church or impostor? Read Matthew 13:24-30. It speaks of the kingdom of heaven. You are blind if you cannot see that the Catholic Church fits well on that description.

NOW please dont get me wrong if ever mo accuse mo that im an anti catholic (not being defensive) coz im not... you have no idea who i am.... the thing is im just questioning these things which church and the messenger of God could satisfy and enlighten your soul.... there's no church who can save ya or whatever but better check first kung asa ka nag simba.... basig sayop diay ka!!!

If there is no church that can save you, why does Christ identify himself with the Church? You mean Christ cannot save you? Oh, you mean religion cannot save you. I repeat : religion is the act of justice by which we render to God, both privately as individuals and publicly as social beings, the honor, gratitude, and obedience due to Him, and in the way prescribed by Him. If you know but do not practice the acts of religion described in the previous statement, will you be saved?

Ever read Romans 10:14-15? It says that, before anyone can call on the name of the Lord, one must first believe. Before anyone can believe, one must first hear the Gospel. Before anyone can hear the Gospel, someone must proclaim it to him. Yet, no one can proclaim the Gospel unless he is sent. Only the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church could claim as having a succession of sending forth of proclaimers of the Gospel from the time of the apostles. You should not be blind to this requirement of being sent forth before you proclaim the Gospel. Can your pastor trace his origin to the apostles?

[Von!-x]

I dont think all those arguments against what Richard perceived to be as hollow religion would change his mind. His is just one of the many who questioned the superficiality of religion.

Tell us, richard, about your personal experience with God. Maybe we can start with this.

[richard79]

I dont think all those arguments against what Richard perceived to be as hollow religion would change his mind.Â* His is just one of the many who questioned the superficiality of religion.

Tell us, richard, about your personal experience with God.Â* Maybe we can start with this.

Thanks bai for understanding kung unsa akong na feel ani nga butanga....

Now youre asking me about my personal experience(s) with God is like asking my personal life... but dont get me wrong bai coz ive been into the extremes already. It doesnt mean again that im not satisfied what i have and what i believed right now because i am really on my comfort zone right now. I believe in God and I love him so much that without him i wont be like this right now. He gave me blessings and tested me for what i am and who i am.

Well i admit that i am not a catholic but it doesnt mean that i one is better than the other. As what ive said im on my comfort zone right now and my church is not perfect either compared to others.

My personal experiences with God came when he changed my life from the extremes of my belief and pulled me out and saved me and guided me on the right path and the right way. I go to church every Sunday and savoring every Word of God that i could take. I have this hunger for words that brings me to the path of righteousness. Believe me, I am not a perfect person either! I stumble and crawl, i sin a lot sometimes even i have decernment that this is not right. BUT the good thing is there's always a Hand to pull me up and let me walk again!

I came to the point of antagonizing Christ and to the point of believing nothing.... but then.... miracle happened.

[dacs]

I just want to ask you guys what is really the point of having a religion?

Religion is the act of justice by which we render to God, both privately as individuals and publicly as social beings, the honor, gratitude, and obedience due to Him, and in the way prescribed by Him.

Similar ra man gud cya to Government in the sense that religion tries to control how people act, kaso religion does this through conscience...that each being has a soul, that God exists and there is a life after death(in the case of Christianity)...while government does this by imposing rules/laws based on human nature.

I call it formation of conscience. If the person allows his conscience to be formed the Christian way, then it is his free choice. Yet, a person who never bother to form his conscience the Christian way - even if he calls himself Christian - may never have a Christian conscience. There are many those kind of Christians. Nevertheless, Christian education is never meant to control. It teaches natural law, moral law, divine law, adherrence to lawful authority, ethics, etc. It actually frees an individual from the passing and changing trends and fashions of the world.

Pero dba, they both have the same objective? for us humans to live harmoniously. my point is, politics ra man gihapon ang religion (maybe im making a hasty generalization here or at least this generalization applies only to dominant religions) and church-leaders are still human so subjective ra gihapon...and people need to wake-up and decipher what is the truth, dli dawat-kiti dawat lng because nang-galing sa church...that's why we have brains!...to reason, to choose, to decide, to conclude.

That is it! Use your intellect, and not your prejudice. Read how the Church give reason(s) to her pronouncements. When you read history, put it in context - the times, the place, the particular norms, the culture, the practices. Do not allow yourself to read history in the context of your present times, place, norms, culture and practices. Please remember that most of the greatest minds in the field of philosophy, theology, and science are devout Catholics. For one, Nicolas Copernicus who developed the heliocentric theory (i.e., the Sun is the center of our solar system) was a Catholic churchman who was encouraged by his bishop with the approval of the Pope then.

And dont you guys think nga one of the main reasons why the state of the Philippines is like this right now is because of religion pud? (well, of course you also have to consider our history, our colonizers, our society) I hate to name names but take Roman Catholic for example coz it's the one that's dominant.

This is crap, and you know it. If it is true, then Luxembourg and Ireland - both of which Catholic-majority countries (87% and 88.4%, respectively) should have been the worst economies of the European Union. FACT : Luxembourg and Ireland are the first two highest economies in the European Union. Click here for the economic details of Ireland. Click here for the economic details of Luxembourg. You may be right though about one thing : if religion has got something to do with it, Filipino Catholics have the worst application of it.

Catholicism is a remnant of Medieval times man gud. That's why Renaissance came about, because of power-conflict between church and state...and the control of the church was waning na.

Before the start of the Middle Ages (which started on the 5th century), St. Augustine had this to say:

“In the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep (Jn 21:15-19), down to the present episcopate.

“And so, lastly, does the very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.

“Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should...With you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me... No one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion...For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.�

- St. Augustine (AD 354-430 )
Against the Epistle of Manichaeus, AD 397
(Contra Epistolam Manichaei Quam Vacant Fundamenti)

Actually, there are much earlier references to the existence of the Catholic Church:

“But look at the men who have those perverted notions about the grace of Jesus Christ which has come down to us, and see how contrary to the mind of God they are. . . . They even abstain from the Eucharist and from the public prayers, because they will not admit that the Eucharist is the self-same body of our Savior Jesus Christ which flesh suffered for our sins, and which the Father of His goodness raised up again.“

St. Ignatius of Antioch (d. AD 106; disciple of Peter and Paul)
Epistle to the Smyrnaeans

“The Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believes these points of doctrine just as if she had but one soul, and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them, and teaches them, and hands them down, with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth. For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same. For the churches in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, not do those in Spain, not those in Gaul, not those in the East, nor those in Egypt, nor those in Libya, nor those which have been established in the central regions [Palestine] of the world.�

St. Ireneaus (c. 130-200)
Against Heresies

“When therefore, we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek among others the truth which is easily obtained from the Church. For the apostles, like a rich man in a bank, deposited with her [the Church] most copiously everything which pertains to the truth; and everyone whosoever wishes draws from her the drink of life. Let us suppose that the apostles had left us no written records. Would we not have been able to follow the precepts of the tradition that they handed down to those to whom they entrusted the Churches? It is this precept of tradition that is followed by many barbarian nations that believe in Christ who know nothing of the use of writing, or ink.�

St. Ireneaus, (c. 130-200)
Against Heresies

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven.’ And again He says to him after His resurrection: ‘Feed my sheep.’ On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?�

St. Cyprian, AD 251
The Unity of the Catholic Church

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition."

St. Irenaeus (disciple of Polycarp, disciple of John)
(Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

We have to admit na tao lng din po ang church leaders and possible na ma-corrupt sila. And in some ways, the Catholicism that we have now, is still a remnant of the Catholicism of the Medieval times brought and forced to us by Spain. You also have to consider how it was taught during those 300 years. Christianity was forced on us...it was like a duty...which is not supposed to be.

Have you ever read of the phrase 'the religion of the ruler is the religion of the people'? This rule was forced upon Catholic peasants in Europe when their rulers (mostly German princes) became Protestants. It may be abhorrent for us today but, during those times, it is the norm. As I said, read history in context.

What im driving is that, Nobody can stay in power for far too long. Ang religion kasi, hindi dapat itulad sa sapatos na nakasanayan na. For it to be effective, dapat constant care and upgrade para hindi maging lenient (which leads to regard the act of going to church and hearing sermons as a mere duty na lng, and not as an act of seeking the truth, aspiring for enlightenment and generally seeking for the higher good) yung followers.

Sakto! Awaken, oh Catholics! Let us be like the martyrs and saints before us! Let us study the history of our Church and of our Faith. Let us hear it from the Fathers of the Church and the Doctors of the Church. Let us hear it from the writings of the early Christians. Let us hear the words of St. Cyprian, Tertullian, St. Clement of Rome, St. John Chrysostom, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Anselm. Let us hear it from the saints.

I would just like to add, don't you think nga better if a person is taught what is morally right and what is morally wrong sa childhood years niya, and introduce religion na sa later point sa life niya wherein he can think for himself na? That way, he will take religion seriously kasi he chose to be in that religion. What do you guys think?

Whose morality are we talking about? Are we going to teach our children that it is morally right to abort a child if it is an inconvenience for the mother? By choosing which morality will be taught, you will still be favoring a belief system. Is it morally right to discontinue articial life support system if it just cost too much financially? Every time there is a moral question, an individual has to take side - even a child.

And bakit ba kailangan merong maring denominations sa religion?

Before Luther, Calvin, and others, there was only two forms of Christianity - Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Even then, there is only one bishop who has authority above all others - the successor of Peter, the bishop of Rome. It is unfortunate that the schism happened - but reunion is still a possibility. The Catholic Church has always been at the forefront of battling heresies that comes her way. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, she have spoken against the danger of relativism, modernism, liberalism, atheistic humanism, and many others.

[Von!-x]

@richard - I guess you understand that religion and good works cannot save a person from eternal damnation. As the Bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9 " For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." If any one is in Christ, he is a new creation (2 Cor 5:17). Good works in an offshot the saving faith. Eph 2:10 says "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

A person's passion for religion is not even a guarantee for eternal life. Remember the pharisees.

Enjoying the comfort zone, is what most Christians are doing today. Why rock the boat? Why bother evangelize, when I am enjoying the preaching and the music. Why talk of eternal damnation when I feel like in heaven listening to Christian music. Why ask for daily bread when I have plenty for tomorrow? Why bother, when I am going to heaven and they're not?

While I am typing this, I too asked myself if I'm enjoying my comfort zone too.

[HoundedbyHeaven]

you are the ones who said it pare... it doesnt mean na ang catholic lang kay naay dawn mass... ang mga protestant pud... hope you check first before saying anything ok?

Which is why I began with "Correct me if I'm wrong". A "Protestant dawn mass" during Christmas? Really? Can you cite which group of Protestants are celebrating this? I have never heard of it but I'm willing to learn if there is truly a Protestant group doing this.

[HoundedbyHeaven]

I would just like to add, don't you think nga better if a person is taught what is morally right and what is morally wrong sa childhood years niya, and introduce religion na sa later point sa life niya wherein he can think for himself na? That way, he will take religion seriously kasi he chose to be in that religion. What do you guys think?

I think this is good.. but we should not just make him choose which religion he wants but also if he wants one or not.

I disagree. I can't say for the other faith groups but for Catholics, having your children baptized and taught the Catholic faith as soon as possible is a must. Our Catholic faith is more precious than our secular education if we believe that the afterlife is more important than this life, and we never wait for our children to reach a certain age to decide whether he should go to school or not. If the state requires parents to send their children to school so does God require parents to teach their children about him, which is part of the "job description" of religion.