MERGED: CPP-NPA-NDF Discussions (Issues, Updates, etc.)

[dirk]

("we have propaganda, but we can't tell you any specifics, so just swallow our propaganda, and support our armed rebellion, because according to our propaganda it is the only solution"--this is circular)

hmm... thats not the way i hear it from some acquaintances of mine that are of the same lot.

i am wondering what an idiotic persona you have just talked to. wanting people to believe what he believes yet not backing it up with sound arguments and facts...

if you possess--or know of others who do--these sound arguments and facts to justify armed struggle as the only solution to our nation's ills, please share them.

so, we may continue this discussion.

why is armed rebellion the only solution? (it's a very simple question)

you've asked the same question over and over, free_thinker... and gareb's tapped dance his way through. i don't think you'll get your answer. but, it was worth the try.

you see, that question isn't found in their literature. trust me, i've been invited to teach-in conferences with anakbayan/leftist types. they operate like a cult, swallowing and regurgitating information supplied by JoMa and others in his inner party.

[free_thinker]

for how many years naman na ang gov sige ug peace talks and talks and talks
ang gobyerno nato dili man gani mo favor sa mga demands nila nga sa gov side sad sila..unsa na kaha ang mga tagabukid...
ang mga taga bukid mo resort to armed revolution kai aron madunggan sila sa govt..the govt cant hear us what we are saying now unless we make it to the headlines....

these aren't the sound arguments and facts i was looking for to justify armed rebellion, but it goes to the whole concept of 'cause and effect':
cause: the NPA (the rank of which come from the proletariat and peasant class) runs around the countryside engaging the AFP in violent fire fights.
effect: the AFP (the majority of whom are young males from the philippines' poorer class) responds as any military force under attack, it retaliates. there's a reason why the Philippine Gov't doesn't listen to the NPA, because the NPA's ultimate goal is to wage armed rebellion against the Gov't and to destroy it.

from what you've posted above, Ybrip, your justification for armed struggle is to be in the headlines? (maybe you can clarify your position a little better)

you've asked the same question over and over, free_thinker... and gareb's tapped dance his way through. i don't think you'll get your answer. but, it was worth the try.

you see, that question isn't found in their literature. trust me, i've been invited to teach-in conferences with anakbayan/leftist types. they operate like a cult, swallowing and regurgitating information supplied by JoMa and others in his inner party.

gareb is one of the smarter folks in this forum, dirk. he always comes through with sound arguments and facts. have some faith.

[gareb]

"audiatur et altera pars" the other side too must be heard.

i am flattered by your kind remarks, free_thinker, but unfortunately i do not profess to know much about communism to the point of defending it in an informal argument. i may know something about it, but due to its limited nature, i fear that to stand out and raise my hand in defending it in a discussion such as this will shame it and wont give it justice.

i urge the people who may have any sound idea (not prejudged notions of what communism is suppose to be or twisted perceptions of what it was) about the subject please feel free to speak up.

otherwise, unless there are people who will try and open up the subject in the perspective of the unheard side, i would not even think of subjecting myself to the question presented above. i need solid evidence. hard facts. sound theories. tangible concepts. real situations.

[dirk]

WHY IS ARMED STRUGGLE THE ONLY SOLUTION?

as expected *****, and other communist propaganda supporters, cannot answer the above question. simply because it is not part of the communist literature, JoMa and others in his inner party never explained why armed struggle is the only solution to our problems. JoMa simply stated that armed rebellion was the only way and that was that.

the funny thing about that question is it isn't really that complicated.

there's only two ways to affect revolution in any given situation: violent and non-violent. violent revolutions are as common as the dead bodies they produce (i.e.-- somalia, afghanistan, cambodia, rwanda, etc.--and now liberia). non-violent revolutions are less dramatic, yet equally as effective and longer lasting--with less dead bodies produced (i.e.--gandhi, martin luther king jr., etc.).

so, to answer your question free_thinker...

ARMED STRUGGLE IS THE ONLY SOLUTION IN THE PHILIPPINES, BECAUSE JOMA AND HIS COMMUNIST FOLLOWERS SAY IT IS.

[dirk]

now, let's go on to Communist propaganda...



Eighty-five percent of the national population is in the countryside. Of this rural population, the poor peasants together with the farm workers comprise about seventy-five percent; the middle peasants, about fifteen percent; the rich peasants, about five percent. The landlords may be only one or two percent. About three or four percent is taken up by nonagricultural wage-earners, artisans, small peddlers, merchants, students, teachers, and other professionals. There are drastic deviations from these percentages only in particular places where there are mines, logging, modern plantations and some industries. Fishermen along the seacoasts are mainly peasants.

Specific Characteristics of Our People's War, by Amado Guerrero (Jose Ma. Sison) December 1974

(the above paragraph is taken out from one of the CPP's main literature series in the early 1970s. it's still being used today as an indoctrination tool.)

according to them (conveniently no sources were sited) below is the percentage breakdown of the Philippine population.

85% rural population
75% poor peasants
15% middle peasants
5% rich peasants (contridiction in terms?)
2% landlords
3% wage-earners
15% urban population

if you notice, their main paradigm is that of the very few upper class compared to the very many lower class (the peasants and the proletariat). what they've conveniently left out, even during communist indoctrinations to this day, is the existence of a growing middle class in the Philippines.

the importance of the middle class is that this is the group in any society that provides or seeks stability within their nation. examples of countries with a dominant middle class are japan, singapore, canada, australia, and western europe.

you can't miss the Philippine middle class, because they're the ones who have kept the malls, jolli-bee, and other middle-class catering establishments open.

so, why does the communist movement always conveniently leave out the growing Philippine middle class during its various teach-ins?

[gareb]

why dirk? have u attended some of these 'communist indoctrinations' lately to know that the same data has been used since 1974?

[dirk]

why dirk? have u attended some of these 'communist indoctrinations' lately to know that the same data has been used since 1974?

Specific Characteristics of Our People's War, by Amado Guerrero (Jose Ma. Sison) December 1974

i'm sure they use updated data also. but, i do know for a fact that the above writing, in pamphlet form, is still being used for indoctrination processes today. (i got my pamphlet from someone i know who went thru this process)

[free_thinker]

WHY IS ARMED STRUGGLE THE ONLY SOLUTION?

as expected *****, and other communist propaganda supporters, cannot answer the above question. simply because it is not part of the communist literature, JoMa and others in his inner party never explained why armed struggle is the only solution to our problems. JoMa simply stated that armed rebellion was the only way and that was that.

the funny thing about that question is it isn't really that complicated.

there's only two ways to affect revolution in any given situation: violent and non-violent. violent revolutions are as common as the dead bodies they produce (i.e.-- somalia, afghanistan, cambodia, rwanda, etc.--and now liberia). non-violent revolutions are less dramatic, yet equally as effective and longer lasting--with less dead bodies produced (i.e.--gandhi, martin luther king jr., etc.).

so, to answer your question free_thinker...

ARMED STRUGGLE IS THE ONLY SOLUTION IN THE PHILIPPINES, BECAUSE JOMA AND HIS COMMUNIST FOLLOWERS SAY IT IS.

i see your point, dirk... and i agree with you also.

so, why does the communist movement always conveniently leave out the growing Philippine middle class during its various teach-ins?

i have several answers to this question:

1. the middle class in the philippines is unlike other middle classes around the world, because their sole goal is to move out of the Philippines.

2. the ones who do stay aren't prone to readily swallow the communist strategy, because they aren't as willing to kill or die as other more desperate souls are.

3. so utility-wise, the only useful bodies to mobilize are the poor.

a. the poor have nothing to lose
b. the poor are less educated, thus can be manipulated
c. the poor historically are the easiest to mobilize, as seen through
history under various millenarian movements (i.e. the pulahanes,
etc.-- read Ileto's, Pasyon)
d. the poor can be willed to kill or die for any cause which
promises salvation from their present status


so, there's a clear reason why the communists (and other millenarian groups) target the poor to wage "armed struggle" against the current hegemony. the irony is, while the communist inner party members in europe and the u.s. send in the poor to do their fighting, the upper class also sends in its poor, uniformed in the military. throughout history, the poor have always been used as sacrifice for others' agenda.

and this is why i do not agree with the Communists' strategy.

WHY IS ARMED STRUGGLE THE ONLY SOLUTION? so far, dirk's answer is the most honest and enlightened.

[J0se_Rizal]

I will never lead a disorderly revolution and one which has no probability of success because I do not want to burden my conscience with an imprudent and useless spilling of blood; but whoever leads a revolution in the Philippines will have me at his side.

http://www.healing-tao.co.uk/ht_rene_writings.htm

[Visual C#]

Why won't these Commies wake up?