The Church is responsible for over population in the Phils.

[bisaya70]

---

bai benig ayaw panuyo ha. pero u are very misguided and much more, very wrong. u need to "dig a little deeper" as u, call it before telling us what is wrong in the catholic teachings. for ehemplo ha, "And considering having "impure thoughts" a sin is bizarre -- not because teenagers beg to differ but because nobody can ever claim to have a total lack of impure thoughts - specially teenagers who are at a stage in life where having impure thoughts is more the rule than the exception.
this is common sense bai. what are the chances of u getting burned kung ang imong tudlo ipadool nimo sa kayo? what are ur chances nga maligsan kung maglabang labang labang kas traffic? what are the chances of u getting tempted kung mutan aw kas dughan sa laing mga babaye? ang point sa simbahan is that to avoid commiting sins, ayaw kaayo padool sa mga butang nga makahatag nimo ug higayong nga makasala ka. mao ni gitawag og NEAR OCCASIONS OF SINS. akong tambag nimo bai, read a little bit more. arm urself with knowledge sa catholic and non catholic faith then ayha pa ka mupahayag ug bug at ug lisod sabton nga mga pulong. naa koy libro CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, i suggest u read it. basa sad ug protestant books. i was like u a long time ago. i came to realize that i judged with out knowing/learning the facts. tsk, tsk, tsk....no knowlege is a dangerous thing.
peace bai

[bisaya70]

bai benig, dia pay laing sayop nimo o. If Jesus Christ were alive today and met the Pope and his cardinals for the first time, what do you think would be his first question:
Here is my guess:
"Dudes, what's with the outfits and the big house?"
If you were the Pope or one of these cardinals, how would you answer that question from The Man Behind the Religion himself?

pwerteng sayunas tubag ani.
The priest wears special clothes to show that it is not he who is celebrating and preparing the Holy Communion and special services, but Jesus Christ. The priest is there as a representative of God who, with the people, offer the service. Each article of clothing has a special meaning.
mao ni catholic teachings ha, so naa ra na nimo kung mutoo ka. it looks like from the number of catholics in the world pwerting daghana ang nitoo gayod. so in short, the tradition is carried on by millions. a lot of people think it is silly and stupid, inyo pod na but for those who believe, we have the history to lean and to look back.

copy and paste ko ha pwede?

Remove from me, O Lord God, the unholy garments wherewith Satan has clothed me by the filth of my evil deeds, and clothe me with the choice garments that are fitting for the service of Thy glory and for the praise of Thy holy Name, O our Lord and our God, forever.

[bisaya70]

dia pay lain o, Lawyers know the Law by heart. But do they now the spirit behind the Law? They don't. Instead, they use loopholes in the letter to pervert it to their ends. In the same way, many Pinoys observe Church doctorine to the letter. But do they practice Christianity in spirit?

mao ni mga pangutana nga kitang mga taw lamang dili gyud makatubag. sa ginaingon bitaw nila nga (sa mga katoliko ug dili katoliko "it's between God and me"), familiar ba? so for you to minimize how people praise God, and how they do it is wrong. It is between God and that person. You may not agree their ways or you may think they are wrong but is it really up to you? What makes you think you are right?
ayaw nuyo nuyo bai ba...PEACE

[bisaya70]

to all of us, this is a good advise:

You really should take time to understand a doctrine before attacking it. You will look a little more intelligent that way.
And take your own advice: THINK.


labi na jud ka bai benig....

dia pa jud o, pastilan.........Then again some fat dude who walks around with all those robes in our tropical climate expecting people to kiss his ring ain't exactly my idea of what a non-bozo is.

we dont look at priests and bishops with the same eye. obvious man di ba? but i am compelled to explain my side. while u think it is silly to do that, a lot of us dont. ako bai benig, when i hear mass, i go their to hear Christs words and teachings, as catholics ang messenger sa Ginoo kay ang mga pari, so i give him respect like i respect my father. Kiss his hand or kitang mga pilipino mo amen di ba? kanang iyang singsing bai wa baya na niya palita sa SM or AYALA. they have done so much to earn it. wa pod na gihatag nila kay cute sila tan awn musul ob sa singsing. So please, please, please do not minimize the practices that we do. Im sure in ur mind u are not doing that but i hope i have clarified a few things to u.

PEACE NA POD

[benign0]

Bai, hope you don't mind if I just respond to the English parts of your post because I don't speak bisaya.

this is common sense bai. what are the chances of u getting burned kung ang imong tudlo ipadool nimo sa kayo? what are ur chances nga maligsan kung maglabang labang labang kas traffic? what are the chances of u getting tempted kung mutan aw kas dughan sa laing mga babaye? ang point sa simbahan is that to avoid commiting sins, ayaw kaayo padool sa mga butang nga makahatag nimo ug higayong nga makasala ka. mao ni gitawag og NEAR OCCASIONS OF SINS. akong tambag nimo bai, read a little bit more. arm urself with knowledge sa catholic and non catholic faith then ayha pa ka mupahayag ug bug at ug lisod sabton nga mga pulong. naa koy libro CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, i suggest u read it. basa sad ug protestant books. i was like u a long time ago. i came to realize that i judged with out knowing/learning the facts. tsk, tsk, tsk....no knowlege is a dangerous thing.

Kung baga, bai, you are saying that impure thoughts are an "occassion for sin". Therefore they should be treated as such rather than make to look like a sin in itself.

The priest wears special clothes to show that it is not he who is celebrating and preparing the Holy Communion and special services, but Jesus Christ. The priest is there as a representative of God who, with the people, offer the service. Each article of clothing has a special meaning.

Bai I wasn't talking about the garments of ordinary priests. I was referring to the often-gilded outfits and jewelry of the Church top honchos.

Do you think that hypothetical question JC would have asked would be unfair?

As to that "history" you look back to, here is my take: The Church officialdom got its taste for magnificent clothing and huge edifices from its former role as king makers/crowners and crusade launchers. They had to dress the role in order to appeal to the tastes of the kings, queens, prince's dukes, and feudal chieftains whom they loved to hobnob with (looks like things haven't changed much back in our little islands nation in retrospect). They had to build huge churches and cathedrals to awe and pacify the ignorant masses and humour the whims of those royals who, for the most part, did not have "humility" in their vocabularies and instead practiced a perverted version of it.

Kind of a far cry from the carpenter's hovel that JC grew up in, don't you think? Now there's an irony for you to digest.

familiar ba? so for you to minimize how people praise God, and how they do it is wrong. It is between God and that person. You may not agree their ways or you may think they are wrong but is it really up to you? What makes you think you are right?

What makes you think I am wrong?

As you said. Spirituality is between God and said person. But what do you see in Pinoy society today? A society where non-church goers, prostitutes, and, generally, people who beg to differ are frowned upon.

In my view Pinoys have a bad habit of overlooking the fact that different people have different ways of making their personal peace with The Lord (the true essence of spirituality) and instead judge what they see with their imperfect eyes through a lens cast in front of us by this Catholic Church of ours.

Kind of a far cry from the JC we all know and read about, don't you think?

Kiss his hand or kitang mga pilipino mo amen di ba? kanang iyang singsing bai wa baya na niya palita sa SM or AYALA. they have done so much to earn it. wa pod na gihatag nila kay cute sila tan awn musul ob sa singsing. So please, please, please do not minimize the practices that we do. Im sure in ur mind u are not doing that but i hope i have clarified a few things to u.

Not minimising, bai, just putting these practices in perspective.

Obviously you are a very open minded person -- probably because you are more educated than the average Pinoy. You are better equipped to put these rituals in their proper perspectives. However the reality is that Pinoy society is a largely impoverished and ignorant society -- susceptible to mis-interpreting many things and grasping at the surface of deep and complex frameworks like that upheld by the Church. Which makes Church doctorine (or any religion, for that matter) very dangerous. The Crusades were launched and planes were crashed into buildings because of such ignorance. In the case of Pinoy society, its effects are more benign to the world -- mere impoverishment (in mind, spirit, and in wallet) of the masses rather than the creation of monsters who kill civilians en masse (then again who knows how far we have already pushed the Pinoy).

Already, we are seeing an impact that we are only now realising -- the overpopulation of geographical area that is rapidly becoming resource-poor. Past societies that have gone this same path -- Rwanda, Haiti, various polynesian islands, and even some parts of Europe in the middle ages have descended into genocide and cannibalism when human numbers overwhelmed limited resources (specially in societies that failed to develop the brains and the technology to increase production).

Food for though, bai.




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[bisaya70]

like i said ignorance is dangerous. when you study the catholic teachings and non catholic teachings remove bias in you mind. for you have made your judgement and has closed your mind. for example the gilded clothes and jewelries are not just decorations it shows "rank"-position in the church, a protestant minister even dresses up on sundays, not to mention that this is tradition. just like you dressing up in your wedding or special get togethers in your family, if you were a high ranking official in the military, you would not be dressing as a private would you? to move on,the magnificence and beauty of a catholic church, you are dead wrong on you that..... The whole church should be arranged so as to invite adoration and contemplation even where there are no celebrations. One must long to frequent it in order to meet the Lord there .... The Church, by its beautiful liturgical layout, its tabernacle radiating Christ's real presence, should be the beautiful house of the Lord and of His Church, where the faithful love to recollect themselves in the silence of adoration and contemplation. Every church must be "praying" even when no liturgical celebrations are taking place; it must be a place where in a restless world, one can meet the Lord in peace.. you dont think we dont hear mass in the cemetery, residences or even small chapel? if fact we do all the time. we pray everywhere as a matter of fact. not just in big beautiful cathedrals. i dont know where you got your facts, try reading history of the catholic architecture. michaelangelo was not commisioned to paint the sistine chapel with the reasons you have mentioned. read, read, read.
lastly, we as filipinos are products of our history, meaning religion, politics, other countries that influenced us etc, etc, etc. if you think religion and being catholic is the sole reason for our demise- as i think u put it, then you are more ignorant than i think you are. WE PLAY THE HANDS WE ARE DEALT. some rise above, some dont. i have travelled quite a bit in my life, i dont know if you have, but if you truly have been with the poor like i have, most of them are happier than my rich friends. that's a fact.

lastly i feel bad for you that you cant understand my bisaya. i kid you not my thoughts are informative-if i may have to say so myself.

im just curious, what in the world happened to you in the past that made you this way? ...........you dont have to answer that.
just as u think that you are right, i think i am too. i hope you will find the answers like i have. PEACE BAI!!

[benign0]

Bai, firstly, I never said these churches and cathedrals were ugly. In fact I believe they and many other works of art inspired by religion are amongst the most beautiful creations of man.

Second, I am not asserting that the Church "is the sole reason for our demise". Far from that. The Church has always been the Church and civilisations have risen and fallen both under and outside its shadow. The problem is that Pinoy society is an intellectually, spiritually, and needless to say, financially bankrupt society. So it is particularly susceptible to substance abuse (I use "substance" figuratively here for those that need to be told) whether it be Western Culture or Church teachings, or other cultural stimuli you can think of.

Take Western culture. Pinoys are quick to sieze its fruits yet are slow to learn the disciplines to bear those fruits. Or Catholicism -- ignoramous Pinoys are quick to latch on to sacraments to assure their "salvation" but fail to understand the spiritual implications of these sacraments. An example is how these penitents flog and crucify themselves one week every year but live like balasubas's the other 51 weeks. Or even those who one moment are attending Sunday mass, then the next moment cutting off other motorists as they pull out of the parking lot.

Even more worrying is this whole "blessed are the poor" thing being massively taken out of context. Yes, the poor are blessed, but that doesn't change the fact that being poor sucks. And today it is still news for many Pinoys that one actually has to [i]help one's self[/b] before the Big Guy gives them an extra boost.



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[benign0]

And by the way, bai, have you put some thought into that original question of mine?

What would have been the first question JC asked the pope and/or cardinals upon meeting them for the first time?


I do recall that he took quite a lot of potshots at the religious establishment during his time.



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[mannyamador]

If Jesus Christ were alive today and met the Pope and his cardinals for the first time, what do you think would be his first question:

Here is my guess:

"Dudes, what's with the outfits and the big house?".

Now you're trying to change the subject because you are clearly unable to substantiate your flimsy accusations. We can see thru that you know.

Tough luck, dude. I hereby assert them to be true until you prove them false.

That bad reasoning doesn't hold any water. If we follow your bad logic, then I can simply assert you are a bound for hell and it would be true since you CANNOT absolutiely disprove the statement until the Judgement Day. And of course one can simply assert the opposite and it would also be true since it cannot be "disporven" until Judgement day either. I think anyone with a brain can see how absurd that is since no one can correctly make such assertions. But your logic would hold them to be true anyways. That is a contradiction.

It's pretty obvious you don't undertsand the logic here, so let me elaborate. Any accusation is a meaningless opinion until you can substantiate it. If that were not required, then we can affirm EVERYTHING, which is the same as affirming NOTHING. That is why in other critical areas, such as criminal law, the principle is carried over: "innocent until proven guilty."

And I suggest you step back a bit from "doctorine" and start thinking out of the square. Yours is a classic example of a mind that's been imprisoned by institution and tradition.

Yet another error: ad hominem argument. You can't find anything wrong with the reasoning so now you resort to denigrating the person. Tsk, tsk. You're really hitting rock bottom now.

The bottom line: you simply do not understand the doctrine you are cirticizing. That is irresponsible. If I were less kind, I'd call it stupid too, but you are obviously NOT stupid. So please do not expect us to fall for your errors in reasoning. We have tried to respect you, so please repect us.

Now before this exchange gets personal, I appeal that we should all try to be onjective. Let me take the first step and apologize if in any of my posts I have offended you, bening0, in any way.

[mannyamador]

And how exactly did you come to this conclusion that "the Catholic Church was truly given the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ to teach without error on matters of faith and morals"?

I am suprised you don't know this. Sorry dude, but it's obvious you haven't even studied the matters that you are commenting on. That is simply nota good idea and you will never be credible if you continue to critidize from a position of ignorance. So this is for you. Below are some excerpts from "Proving Inspiration" (http://www.catholic.com/library/Proving_Inspiration.asp). It was intended to illustrate how the Church knows the Bible is Inspired, but the logic used here also proves that the Church "was truly given the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ to teach without error on matters of faith and morals"

The Catholic method of proving the Bible to be inspired is this: The Bible
is initially approached as any other ancient work. It is not, at first,
presumed to be inspired. From textual criticism we are able to conclude
that we have a text the accuracy of which is more certain than the
accuracy of any other ancient work.

...

The Bible as Historical Truth

Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history,
tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more
specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of
Jesus's life, death, and resurrection.

Using what is in the Gospels themselves and what we find in extra-biblical
writings from the early centuries, together with what we know of human
nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural reason alone, know of
divine nature), we conclude that either Jesus was just what he claimed to
be -- or he was crazy. (The one thing we know he could no been was merely
a good man who was not God, since no merely good man would make
the claims he made.)

We are able to eliminate the possibility of his being a madman not just
from what he said but from what his followers did after his death. Many
critics of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection claim that Christ did
not truly rise, that his followers took his body from the tomb and then
proclaimed him risen from the dead. According to these critics, the
resurrection was nothing more than a hoax. Devising a hoax to glorify a
friend and mentor is one thing, but you do not find people dying for a
hoax, at least not one from which they derive no benefit. Certainly if
Christ had not risen his disciples would not have died horrible deaths
affirming the reality and truth of the resurrection. The result of this
line of reasoning is that we must conclude that Jesus indeed rose from the
dead. Consequently, his claims concerning himself -- including his
claim to be God -- gave credibility. He meant what he said and did what
he said he would do.

Further, Christ said he would found a Church. Both the Bible (still taken
as merely a historical book, not yet as an inspired one) and other ancient
works attest to the fact that Christ established a Church with the
rudiments of what we see in the Catholic Church today -- papacy,
hierarchy, priesthood, sacraments, teaching authority, and, as a
consequence of the last, infallibility. Christ's Church, to do what he
said it would do, had to have the character of doctrinal infallibility.

We therefore have evidence to reasonably conclude that the Church "was truly given the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ to teach without error on matters of faith and morals." If you dispute this, then please try to show the flaw in the reasoning above instead of your usual ad hominems and attempts to sidetrack the issues.