If someone ask you "Luwas na ba ka?", whats ur answer?

[mr.ho_chia2]

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may ka dha. unsa sud-an? hehe

[nemmo723]

@rc ruman about salvation......

where then the death of Christ fits in all these?

strictly speaking, in the Christian literature, its not necessary for the death of Christ to fit in all these. explanation below..

anyway, i agree with rcruman, like i said before, it does not end in faith only. it must be continued on with good deeds, and good deeds are our own responsibility, because nobody will do good deeds for us, we MUST do it ourselves. it goes for any other religion also. hypocrite na ang professing faith, unya sige japon ug pangawat or pamakak, or buhat ug mga dautan.

as for the death of Christ, it is not necessary for our "saving". this verse from Christ states something about this "death on the cross"..
Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.
the explanation is rather lengthy, and im sleepy na, so ill just post in the morning the continued explanation. gotta consult someone about this pa pud.. and if i recall it right, it is confirmed in the book of revelations.

[rcruman]

@rc ruman about salvation......

where then the death of Christ fits in all these?

The death of Christ is the beginning of salvation.
Through the death of Christ we have the right to have eternal life.
So by hearing or listening the word of God (gospel) is the beginning.

So do you mean the death of Christ is the assurance that we have eternal life and we don't have to work?
Ddi you know that if you go back to your old ways after you've found God its like crucifying Christ again?
Through the death of Christ our sins was forgiven but if we do things or sins against the Holy Spirit then its not forgiven and can't be forgiven.

Many religious group today have fooled many man by preaching Faith alone and you're saved, no need for good works.
Here's some of their gospel which is not biblical but unto their own interest.
If you're a gay its OK to them even you have *** with fellow men as long as you have faith.
If you're a married man and has another wife, its OK to them as long as you have faith.
If you're a gambler or drug lord its ok as long as you give donations and you have faith.

Faith is shown through our works, but others faith is only to their mouth.


Peace!

[Ironside]

Can you give me a single verse (even one) that a Christian stop doing good when they are justified (im talking about your 1-5 apects of Justification)?



No, there is no single verse in the Bible that states that a Christian must stop doing good after he is justified by faith alone in Christ alone. It is his trust in the work of Christ that justified him before God. His good works are the necesarry result of justification. Christians are justified and saved to do good works. They are not however, justified before God by good works.

The question is what justifies a sinner BEFORE GOD?

answer: the appropriation of the work of Christ [the only work that justifies before God] by faith alone for Christ's work on the cross was perfect and complete to justify anyone before God. If Christ's death on the cross satisfied God completely and perfectly as to my justification why should i not be satisfied with it in simple faith. Why would i add anything to that which is already perfect before God for my justification.


Can people be justified even they don't do Good?


Before God:

Do I have to state the obvious? If good works cannot justify anyone before God, how much less people who dont do good works. GOOD THING IS: THE SINNER IS NOT JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY ANYTHING THAT THEY DO FOR GOD, RATHER THE WORK THAT JUSTIFIES A SINNER BEFORE GOD IS THE WORK OF GOD FOR THE SINNER IN CALVARY. The ONLY WORK THAT JUSTIFIES BEFORE GOD IS THE WORK OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS.

It is not what sinners do for God, it is what God did for them in Calvary that justifies sinners before Him. And that complete and perfect justification will be yours if you trust in what God did in Calvary for you.


Ga 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.


If by the works of the Law no one will be justified, how much less works that cannot be labeled "good" right? I think that is obvious.





Before men:

If I am one who trust in what Christ did for me on the cross for my salvation, then I am justified before God. I will then manifest that vertical justification to my fellowman by good works. I vindicate myself to them through my works.





as far as I know by not doing sins or staying away from sins is an act of good works.


Yes, but the Bible says:

Ga 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.



Isn't it right that the Law teaches you not to sin? or stay away from sin and yet the Bible says, no one will be justified by it?





9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

These Christians do these things before but when they know God they were washed and justified.
So by not doing these things again its an act of good works.


Isnt't justification wonderful? It is really life changing right? Where and how were they justified? In good works ? or in the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of God?

"but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."


Truly there is no condemnation to those IN CHRIST JESUS RIGHT?


So to you bro. Ironside, even a Christian do these things again, are they still justified?

1Jo 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.




20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:20-22.


It is possible to escape the POLLUTIONS [AND NOT THE CORRUPTION] OF THE WORLD FOR A TIME AND THEN GO BACK TO IT again. Unjustified people in the Bible are represented as sow, dog, goat, wolves etc. While justified people are represented as sheep.

The illustration in red above proves that they were never really justified in the first place. They never partook of the divine nature. They just escaped the POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD AND NOT THE CORRUPTION OF IT. Unlike truly justified people, they not only partook of the divine nature and escaped the POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD but also the CORRUPTION OF IT:


2Pe 1:4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.





So to your group they will tear this verses on your bible:

6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
Galatians 6:6-9.



No we will never tear it in our Bibles. It is a wonderful verse to read and apply. Eternal life is not only a gift from God. It is also practical living. Eternal life is actually the Lord Jesus Christ indwelling in me. When I let Christ live His life through me, the result is the abundant life He promised in John 10. What is the abundant life? It is eternal life practically lived out. How do we do that? By walking and sowing in the Spirit and not to the flesh.



10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:10.


Exactly, Christians are saved by grace through faith....not of works, but they are new creatures in Christ, created FOR GOOD WORKS. Christians are saved by grace through faith for good works. They are not saved by good works.




[i]The ways to salvation (christian era):
1. First know the words of God.
2. Baptism (applicable only on Christian era)
3. Do and maintain the words of God until death.
Its a steps and should be executed.
Its not selecting one only as you've mentioned with your (6 aspects of justifications0.

Peace![/i]


Dili mo pareha ni Paul:


Ac 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"


31 So they said, "Believe [trust] on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,.................."

[rcruman]

Can you give me a single verse (even one) that a Christian stop doing good when they are justified (im talking about your 1-5 apects of Justification)?
No, there is no single verse in the Bible that states that a Christian must stop doing good after he is justified by faith alone in Christ alone. It is his trust in the work of Christ that justified him before God. His good works are the necesarry result of justification. Christians are justified and saved to do good works. They are not however, justified before God by good works.

So what are still doing there, do good works not just faith.
Where in the bible is this statement:
Christians are justified and saved to do good works. They are not however, justified before God by good works.?
so they will just rest? you mean easy go lucky na lang ta tanan?

It is not what sinners do for God, it is what God did for them in Calvary that justifies sinners before Him. And that complete and perfect justification will be yours if you trust in what God did in Calvary for you.


Ga 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
If by the works of the Law no one will be justified, how much less works that cannot be labeled "good" right? I think that is obvious.
Do you know what LAW thus apostle Paul pertaining to on Galatian 2:16?
Its the LAW of moses not all laws.

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Acts 13:39.

Because Apostle Paul was preaching that we must fulfil the Law:

2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:2.

Yes, but the Bible says:
Ga 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Isn't it right that the Law teaches you not to sin? or stay away from sin and yet the Bible says, no one will be justified by it?

Change your view bro Ironside, its not when you read a "LAW" it means the 10 commandments or the old laws.
No one will be justified by the Law of Moses but by the Law of Christ we will be justified.

Its not sense if God give laws and no one will be justified by it.


Isnt't justification wonderful? It is really life changing right? Where and how were they justified? In good works ? or in the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of God?

"but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
Truly there is no condemnation to those IN CHRIST JESUS RIGHT?

Yes, no condemnation because these CHristians are doing good but if they do those things again which they where cleansed from so the salvation is gone.

It is possible to escape the POLLUTIONS [AND NOT THE CORRUPTION] OF THE WORLD FOR A TIME AND THEN GO BACK TO IT again. Unjustified people in the Bible are represented as sow, dog, goat, wolves etc. While justified people are represented as sheep.

The illustration in red above proves that they were never really justified in the first place. They never partook of the divine nature. They just escaped the POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD AND NOT THE CORRUPTION OF IT. Unlike truly justified people, they not only partook of the divine nature and escaped the POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD but also the CORRUPTION OF IT:
Have you noticed the word ESCAPED?
So by the word escaped (past tense) it means they are cleansed and Christians are cleansed by the word of Christ through baptism.
But these people turn back again to there previous life.

Dili mo pareha ni Paul:
Ac 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said, "Believe [trust] on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,.................."
The word believe there is not (trust) as you're trying to say.
Let Christ explain what "believe" means.

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:31-32.
So the word believe is to continue.

Peace!

[Ironside]

So what are still doing there, do good works not just faith.

What am I doing here? I am writing.


Do good works not just faith


Let me repeat my statement above. Please read it slowly and with understanding:

No, there is no single verse in the Bible that states that a Christian must stop doing good after he is justified by faith alone in Christ alone. It is his trust in the work of Christ that justified him before God. His good works are the necesarry result of justification. Christians are justified and saved to do good works. They are not however, justified before God by good works.


Genuine faith that justifies before God results in good works. It is not my good works that I rely on for my justification before God, it is on the work of Christ on the cross I put my trust for that.


Where in the bible is this statement:
Christians are justified and saved to do good works. They are not however, justified before God by good works.?


a) Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,


9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.



so they will just rest?


I will come to Christ and rest on what He has done for me on Calvary for my justification before God.

Heb 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.


Mt 11:28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


you mean easy go lucky na lang ta tanan?

The grace of salvation and justification that Christ brought is a salvation that teaches me to be holy and zealous for good works.


Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.


Do you know what LAW thus apostle Paul pertaining to on Galatian 2:16? Its the LAW of moses not all laws.


Yes. I know.


Because Apostle Paul was preaching that we must fulfil the Law:

2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:2.



Ah yes. Obedience to the will of God is not optional when one has become justified before God through faith alone in Christ alone. When one has become justified before God by faith alone in Christ alone the Holy Spirit came to indwell him, resulting in the fruits of the Spirit, if he walks in the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit, one of them is love. And love is the fulfilling of the Law of Christ.


It is not my love to God that saves and justifies me. It is His love for me as seen in Calvary.



Change your view bro Ironside, its not when you read a "LAW" it means the 10 commandments or the old laws.
No one will be justified by the Law of Moses but by the Law of Christ we will be justified.



a) I never said anything that every occurrence of the word “Law” in the Bible refers to the Law of Moses. Gentiles have a law but it is not the Law of Moses. But neither of it justifies before God. It is through Christ’s work alone that justifies.


b) Nowhere in the Bible has it been written that fulfilling the Law of Christ justifies one before God. Rather it is Christ’s death on the cross that justified me. The Law of Christ was given to those who are already justified by faith in what He did on Calvary.


its not sense if God give laws and no one will be justified by it.


It makes no sense to you but to Paul it does:

Ga 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! [color=red]For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness [justication] would have been by the law.


Ga 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Ga 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.



Notice verse 21. Observe that Paul says: if there had been A law given which could have given life, then righteousness would have been by the law that was given. But there never was or will ever be A law that God would give in which eternal life would be earned. Not THE law of Moses, not THE Law of Christ. All to whom Christ gives His Law are those who have already been justified by faith in Him.


Yes, no condemnation because these CHristians are doing good but if they do those things again which they where cleansed from so the salvation is gone.


a) Christians are freed from condemnation not because of anything meritorious they did for God. But simply because of the fact that they are IN CHRIST. IN Christ there is no condemnation because IN CHRIST is forgiveness and redemption.


Christians are not saved by their own good works but BY THE GOOD WORK OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS.


b) Salvation is forever. One of the New Covenant blessings that the Church of God is enjoying right now is obviously the spiritual blessing of salvation through the death of Christ on the cross. In the coming 1000 year reign of Christ, Israel will be saved with an everlasting salvation:


Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved by the LORD With an everlasting salvation; You shall not be ashamed or disgraced Forever and ever.


But for now, Christians are enjoying that eternal blessing of everlasting salvation.


Have you noticed the word ESCAPED?


Yes


So by the word escaped (past tense) it means they are cleansed and Christians are cleansed by the word of Christ through baptism.
But these people turn back again to there previous life.



a) I think this is basic: escape does not mean cleansed. One can escape the influence of the world outwardly but never cleansed from the corruption and evil in his heart.


b) water baptism never cleanses the inward corruption of the heart. It is by faith in Christ through His shed blood on the cross that cleanses:


Ac 15:9 "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.


The word believe there is not (trust) as you're trying to say.
........ the word believe is to continue


Try telling that to Greek speaking people. You will come across them as comical. The word “believe” in the expression “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved…” is the word “pisteuo” in Greek. And it always means trust, faith or reliance, commit :


Here is Strong. Diba your idol Mr. S. uses Strong’s lexicon?


Pisteuo:

from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

To believe IN ACTS 16:31 is to have FAITH. FAITH DOES NOT MEAN CONTINUE



b) nya bisan pa wala tay knowledge about Greek I think it is obvious naman pud siguro oi nga the word “continue” does not mean “believe”. They are two distinct concepts. BISAN BATA SIGURO KASABOT MAN ANA.



c)Let’s try your definition and see how absurd it is:


Acts 16:30-31:


And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
So they said, "CONTINUE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,

[Continue? How can he continue he has not even began yet in the Christian life?]






Let Christ explain what "believe" means

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
So the word believe is to continue.


The Lord Jesus above was not giving the definition of the word “believe”. Rather, He was showing the character of those who are His true disciples. His true disciples are those who abide in His word.

How can my brother know that I am indeed a disciple of Christ, that I am one who has trusted in Christ alone for justification indeed? My continuance in His word.

The verses you quoted does not give us the definition of the word believe, rather it gives us the character of those who have truly believed on Him: they continue in His word.

One may say: “Those who have hope endures.” But that does not mean that HOPE MEANS ENDURANCE. Hope is one thing while endurance is another. It is true however that hope gives endurance. But hope never means endurance.


The concept of believing or having faith is different from the concept of continuing. Ask any 9 year old boy or girl.

[shimiyu]

Yup!

[mr.ho_chia2]

well said ironside. but i don't think you will be understood.

frequency is a problem.

[nemmo723]

@ironside

you know what the problem is in ur statement.. you do not take responsibility for your actions. you attribute your actions as the work of christ in you. what kind of faith is that that doesnt take accounts for his actions, whether it be good or bad. if its good, and one does not take responsibility for it, its called false humility. if its bad, and one does not take responsibility for it, well its just plainly called stupid. hehehe.. but anyway, imo pud na pamaagi..

[mr.ho_chia2]

there you go ironside, told you............