MERGED: Vigilantism and related issues

[MelodyMan]

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grabe kaau ni nga topic! hehehe
go BoyBastos!!!

[giver_bert]

So do you mean to say that only the criminals are allowed to act 'outside the boundaries of law' instead of within it?

as the saying goes, "no one is above the law".. therefore, this criminals don't have any right, nor is allowed to commit crimes.. that's basically the reason why we have our justice system, to let those people realize that we have laws to abide with.. let us not use what these people are doing as an excuse or justification for us to do the same thing, i believe we are more civilized/intellectual enough so as to know that such isn't a good thing!

It is not only the law and justice system that is flawed many times over, we have good laws, it's just a matter of enforcing the law. What's the use of making more laws when you can't even implement the law? I'm not talking about rejecting the law, I'm for implementing it. I'm not asking the ordinary people to carry guns and shoot the criminals.

i could not say it any better bro.. there you go! our problem really here is how the law is enforced! apparently, there's a the lack of assertiveness on concern government institutions and people holding public positions.. we need not to resort to vigilant means just to effectively enforce it.. why do we instead take our own little share at giving our government a major overhaul, which will eventually solve not just problems in criminality, but other economic, socio-cultural problems as well.. voting wisely is one good way..

I'm only expressing my view that I am in favor of what the hunter team is doing. The hunter team is composed of LAW ENFORCERS. Therefore their job is to implement the law. And right now they are speaking the only language that these criminals understand. IF you talk about the humane side of the law, these people have been given their chance to reform by being jailed. Despite going in and out of jail they insist on going back to their old ways. Personally, I am stumped for a solution to this. If you have the answer kindly please give PM me. And I will personally deliver your words of wisdom to the Mayor.

somehow we play our own little share of why such things happen to them.. for instance, ikaw bro if makakita ka ug ex convict.. how would you react? let's not be hypocrite, we tend at condemning these people like they have some sort of communicable diseases.. having law enforcers to form the hunter team, doesn't outrightly purports that they are acting in the scope of their authority and responsibility.. not unless if this team is mandated by the law to perform such vigilant measures, then i will take back what i just said..

Whose talking about putting the law in his own hands? Did I suggest the civilians shoot criminals? Of course I let the law enforcers do their jobs. Kay ngano man? gusto diay ka akoy mangunay ug pusil sa mga criminal? Unsay imong pagtu o? Buang ko nga mamusil ug tulisan para mapriso ko.

by consenting what the hunter team has been doing, it is in substance over form indirectly doing such.. we all know that if majority of us will not favor the idea of outrightly killing "suspected" and as well as those branded as "notorious" criminals then this initiative by our mayor will not be able to materialize, if so then it will surely not last for long..

Ma o bitaw nang mag bayad ta ug buhis nga sakto para maka sweldo si Tomas sa mga pulis. Gamita kuno imong common sense.
That someone are the law enforcers who are there to protect the civilians because the civilians cannot protect themselves.

errr... ever wonder bro, why these people who are enforcing the law, more often are actually the ones behind crimes? correct gyd ka bro, we pay taxes, actually in my case i pay almost half of my gross salary, but question is asa man nang atong kwarta na gibayad ron? seems like the richer are becoming richer, while the poorer are slowly going to the dogs.. now this could be one reason of the reasons why?

Yes boy, finally nakasabot naka? Mao bitaw nang nangisog na ang law enforcement arm. Police, not the judiciary kay ang mga criminal wala na mu rispeto sa balaod. The judiciary is there to interpret the law, not to implement it. Try to ask a good lawyer, kung unsay function sa judiciary? aron makasabot ka..

yeah.. and sad to say they resorted to "destructive" means of sending the message.. i believe we can still relay the same message to criminals w/o the need at acting like barbarians..

Is it a crime if the law enforcers merely IMPLEMENT the law?

to reiterate again, so long as they're acting ian the scope of what the soveign has vested on them, then i don't think it could be regarded as a crime.. so now question is, are the hunter teams backed-up by any law whatsoever making their actions legally justifiable?

Ang kanang maangol, ang mayor nay manubag ana. Before he made the decision to form the team. Do you think he did not take that into consideration? Sure there is a risk nga duna gyuy maangol dili man na 100percent foolproof ang plano.

that's the inherent and inevitable outcome bro... we'll never know if this team will be consistent at pinning down up to the last target.. ang bala raba kay dili gyd na mamili ug ig-on.. bisan unsa ka hanas sa tao na magamit ug pistola naa gihapon na puruhan na masayop, ug unya kung naa inosente na mamatay.. unsa man, igo lang ta mo ingon na si mayor lang bahala ana? where talking about lives here, not just any tangible thingies that we can pay off if things went out of their hands..

my law teacher once said it's better to free a number of criminals, rather than taking in one innocent man..

Moreover, we may have lost our hopes with our justice system and people who are enforcing it, but hey there's that one from "above" and i'm sure He will definitely serve justice to those who deserve it...

peace amigos!

[giver_bert]

urk.. sorry... double post

[potterboy]

so is this a good choice? i mean having a team tracking down criminals and killing them...

it wont be that simple... but it wont be that complicating either....

[gerard]

in ko ani...
probs lang maka tera sila ug inosente...
pariha ni dumpit...
bantay lang ug knahanglan jud
positive sa target...

[nowhereman]

IN ko ani
Since ang atong gobyerno ug mga pulis wala kaayoy mabuhat
Sila pa gani cguro ang gigikanan sa ubang kagubot

Kung pasagdan lang nato ang mga pulis na maoy musolbad sa kagubot
Wla gyud tay makita nga improvement kay mga dautang pulis ang nagkadaghan
Kung ang atong dili ganahan nga matabo kay ang inosente nya ang mapatay kay dili
gyud na kalikayan pero dili sad na mao lang ang matabo
Ang mga pulis(dili dautan nga pulis) gani kay makapatay man gani sad ug mga inosente
Dili man sila mopatay dayon unless wala silay klaro nga evidence
Dili man cguro ka mabantog nga druglord kung wla dyud ka namaligya

Ang ako sang nabaw-an sa death squad kay maniid pa sad na sila sa ilang suspect before
nila bisitahon

Kung naay 3 ka kriminal ug isa ka inosente
ang choice nimo kay mamatay ang inosente kung mamatay ang tulo ka kriminal
or makaikyas ang tulo ka kriminal unya dili mamatay ang inosente

Adto nalang ko sa mamatay ang tulo ka kriminal ug ang inosente kay sa
makaiyas ang tulo ka kriminal, mabuhi ang isa ka inosente unya makapatay
nag nakaiyas na kriminal ug laing tulo ka inosente

Kung ang imong gihunahuna kay ang kalive-in or asawa sa kriminal
Tinuod maluoy ka pero wala sad ka gahunahuna sa asawa/kalive-in sa napatay or
sa mapatay pa sa kriminal

[gareb]

Who are you trying to impress boy, the people who sympathize with the masses? You sound like those old grandstanding politicians forming those committees and hearings " in aid of legislation "
By the time you finish trying to understand how criminality happens, how many victims will there be? Desperate times call for desperate measures. Not just a lot of people blowing hot air and wasting a lot of saliva arguing about the pros and cons.

my apologies if you find that rather strong post as quite offensive. i was merely stressing a point and emphasizing the severity of the situation that is present. if you find that sociological analysis on criminal deviance happens to contradict your opinion, then i am sorry if you feel so insecure when one places right before you something that you evidently haven't encountered yet, sir. if you feel that i am trying to impress you, then i do not care about that opinion of yours. what i care about is the weight of the arguments presented here, and not trivial childish mudslingings that you obviously want to initiate.

But while you are still looking for the solution we need to see some action. What you have is a good long term solution, but for the meantime we need a short term solution.

action, in itself, is part of the solution. short term and long range plans must coincide. to not do so would render each to negate one another. the idea that you present as a 'short term' solution is a haphazard move that cannot even morally justify itself, and destroys more than we create. it is a reflection of how we want instant solutions to problems which are larger than what they seem.

if we want immediate solutions, [b]we have to realize first that any effort that does not put grave importance to existing social conditions is ultimately futile.[b] we have been placing countless criminals in jail only to see them commit crime again when they go out into the streets. we have seen crime rates go up. and we have been doing this for years now. isn't this evidence enough that we have a problem that goes deeper than mere attribution of crime to the individual criminal. while you go around placing snatchers, hold-uppers, drug pushers, etc. in jail. are you addressing the chronic failure of our 'rehabilitation centers'? or the chronic poverty that plagues us? or the inefficiency of our government offices? or the inherent self-contradictions within the social structure?

solution to ballooning unemployment entrepreneurship. be your own boss be self employed. Ang tao nga maningkamot dili mapasmo.

entrepreneurship with what capital? to compete with cheap imports? to even flood the market with more products, when the populace can even barely afford food.

i suggest you re-assess the current economic situation and see why only a very limited segment of the population can benefit from entrepreneurship.

Do you think these people rob so they can send their kids to study at Sacred Heart or San Carlos? Ooooowwwww Come on, tell that to the marines boy.

perhaps not these people. but surely another does. do corruption from people from a higher socio-economic class ring a familiar bell to the marines?

what you paint is a ridiculous idea provided that most of snatchers in the streets are not exactly students from either CDC, USC or even Velez College. please let us not kid ourselves and create stupid illusions.

Implement the law!!! Show them that " CRIME DOES NOT PAY !!! "

there you have it. implement the law. stop the summary executions. they are against the law. crime does not pay. and supporting 'salvagings' should also not pay, since it is a crime.

It is not the fault of the state if someone is unwilling to remold or rehabilitate. It is the felons themselves who are unwilling. They have been to jail and still they refuse to reform.

We did not disregard the process, the process was a failure.

i was under the impression that you deem the justice system as BULOK, or in other words, ineffective. and the penitentiary system as not exactly producing 'penitents'. incidentally these institutions are controlled by the state.

and now you conveniently say that it is not the fault of the state that these institutions have not succeeded in producing remolded individuals. is it not like saying that these institutions have not functioned properly?

in essence, there is something wrong with the way the state handles these institutions, contrary to what you suggest that it take a hands off approach and point the blaming finger to the criminals themselves. bear i mind that these prisoners are under the custody of the state.

and now we place the short-sighted idea of summary executions which essentially subverts the state and its laws, neglecting our basic assumption at the first place that there is something wrong with the justice and penitentiary system.

sounds like trying to escape a problem to me.

[gareb]

So now you refer to these CONVICTED criminals as "suspects accused of petty crimes" Is killing a petty crime? and you refer to them as "VICTIMS" . Who are the real victims? the innocent civilians? or your beloved "SUSPECTS" ? And if you really want to go after these politicians who are " RUMORED" ( take note: RUMORED, not proven guilty by your trial courts to reign in millions of bucks from the public treasury. ) Once you prove a politiician guilty I will gladly join you in your crusade to have them jailed.

have they been convicted of a crime that the verdict is death? they are victims, per se, as they have been killed outside of the confines of law. the same is true with the people they have victimized in the past.

but more than anything, the idea of social justice does not discriminate between segments of the society. it treats members of the society, again, essentially as a product of that society's dynamics. that is why crime is a social problem whose social dynamics must be given prime attention, if we are to solve it in long term. i am not sure if you have fully grasped this yet.

please give weight to the fact that the economic elite of this country controls the law (legislation and execution) and politics, economy and culture. the course of the society is practically charted by the narrow interest of the few. it is but natural that they protect themselves when the laws they lipserve tend to attack them.

But it seems that you are out of touch with the real world. You don't feel the threat that the ordinary people feel. If you ride a jeepney as you say, why don't you talk to the jeepney drivers, who despite being poor and are living on a hand to mouth basis do not resort to crime. I assume you don't reside in Cebu City, cause if you do, well ambot nalang.

"criminal deviance does not result simply from the lack of legitimate opportunity, but also in the availability of illegitimate opportunities." i hope i wont be repeating this again.

isn'y it obvious enough that there is an open 'legitimate opportunity' for the jeepney drivers, even if we know for a fact that it is barely enough to feed their family?

curiously, i see a smilarity between people who support summary executions and the criminals who prefer the 'easy way out' of poverty. both prefer quick solutions neverminding the consequences. both lacking sound judgement and a firm grasp of the complexity of the problem that they face. quick bucks, quick death. it's horrifying how this kind of cynicism is being upheld.

Regardless of how criminal deviance develops and factors that affect the development of criminal tendencies, It still DOES NOT JUSTIFY ROBBING THEN KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

who in the world would want to justify THAT? there is just no justification for that. what we are dealing with here are the reasons why those are present at the first place; why criminality is present.

i hope you do not miscontrue that by giving out the reasons why criminality occurs at the first place, in effect, are justifications for for one to commit the crime. an assumption that may pose as the reason why your tone somewhat insists that i favor the well-being of criminals more than i favor their victims.

which of course, is false. given that the posts that i have presented here have aimed at how crime actually develops so that we can solve it in a manner wherein we need not kill more individuals to add those who are already dead.

Is it a crime if the law enforcers merely IMPLEMENT the law? The hunter team is composed of LAW ENFORCERS. I let the police do their job.

are you even aware that summary execution is against the law? perhaps you were thinking that it is. is it not self-contradictory that LAW ENFORCERS are the ones BREAKING THE LAW?

I'm only expressing my view that I am in favor of what the hunter team is doing.

your support, instead of indignation, causes these criminal acts to gain momentum.

Just answer one question, who would you rather have killed, the criminals or innocent civilians? Kung imong anak bisan unsa on ug badlong dili mu patu o, unsay buhaton nimo? Di ba bunalan para makasabot?

on the contrary. you see it for yourself. your quote practically equates discipline of a child to killing criminals. it is obvious enough. bunalan nimo ang imong anak. just like you will punish a criminal as a form of discipline, but not kill him. murag ikaw ang mas angay i abogado ni ecleo since pareha mo nga ganahan nga naay patay.

Okay, identify the right problem and give me your right solutions.

already did that. i hate redundancies even if i have to do them. tanawan na lang sa ubang posts sa taas.

Hoy, kanang hunter team ba. Duna man na silay lista sa mga criminal. So kung wala kay criminal record, dili ka angay mahadlok

Do you think he did not take that into consideration? Sure there is a risk nga duna gyuy maangol dili man na 100percent foolproof ang plano. But the mayor took a calculated risk that there is only a very slim chance nga dunay maangol. He made the decision and he is willing to face the consequences of his decision.

bisan ug naa na silay record ana, gisupak pa gihapon nila ang balaod. unsa may garantiya nimo nga dili sila mupatay ug bisan kinsa na lang? unsa may check and balance nga mechanism para makontrolar ning ingon ani ng klase sa patay? naa bay ingon ana ng klase sa mehcanism? kang kinsa man manubag kining mga vigilantes?

basin nalimot tingali ka nga ang 'hunters' nga police ni tomas officially dili daw mao ang mga vigilantes nga nagpatay. and si tomas ming ingon nga limpyo iyahan kamot, bisan nga siya daw ang ming-'inspire' http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/ceb....hunters..html

you should be careful, your insinuation that the police are actually doing these killings can be used against you in court. well, indeed if it is true then you dont have to worry for yourself. you need to worry for us all.

[tolstoi]

"criminal deviance does not result simply from the lack of legitimate opportunity and but also in the availability of illegitimate opportunities."

In our very limited assessment of the problem, we utterly fail to see where these people came from and the social conditions that existed that may have contributed to them becoming what they are. we value individualism so much that we cannot even see that these people are part of the very society wherein we too are a part of.

And, mind if i ask and what shapes this mindset of criminality? What causes it? What are the factors that contribute to one becoming a criminal? How much part does one's immediate surroundings in early development affect one's perception later in life? How much does economic deprivation early ON affect what he/she might do during puberty and adulthood?

Have you ever even though of asking these questions? Or do you, like so many jump to conclusions right away and with a haphazard analysis of what is actually going ON?

i do believe that unfavorable social conditions like poor family orientation, lack of education, misfortunate living condition..etc are the factors that shapes this criminals becoming. But we should not just put the blame on the government for not providing them there needs, for not spoonfeeding them every now and then. Partly we can blame their parents for not striving hard in order for them to be a good provider to their children. I really admire those parents who are not just relying on the government or to somebody else to augment their conditions. Im no sociologist but i have known lots of people who had work their way out from poverty by self-accomplishment and not by depending on other's welfare. If somebody did it, then why can't they?.

Now to start with, if there's something worth saving here then that would be the impoverished CHILDREN who are basically the HOPE of our nation. We can't do anything more with this hard-headed criminals, and as what i've stressed out that they are not toddlers anymore whom u can still steer on the directions they'll take by promoting effective rehabilitation.Only thru wacking will they be neutralize..

Farmer? No land. balot/cigarette vendor? That's for mere 'sinsilyo'. true, these are perfectly legal ways of earning a living and but will these be enough? Can these actually make them rich?

Now what are you suggesting here, encourage them to steal or do illegal means to make them rich??

tolstoi wrote: When this criminals snatch anybody's cellphones/wallet or maybe worst when they stab this innocent people to death then isn't it barbaric? ?

gareb wrote: Does this imply then that barbarism plus barbarism is justice?

First of all they dont give a damn on our justice system, if this criminals have a resume/bio-data, they may even reach the doctorate for crimes by now with there proven track record in the field and not to mention their in and out of jail.

So bai Gareb, what justice system can u suggest that effectively works out for them

If this horrible scenario is to come to be, why not abolish the courts, the police, the laws, the whole judiciary department, the government bodies who make and enact laws. the whole government then. it seems that they are of no effect whatsoever. lets abolish all of those now, since we do not follow some of the selectively humane laws that exist and anyway.

Instead of abolishing the currrent justice system, how about we'll enact a law that legalizes death squad?. Maybe in this manner those criminals who inspires to add another track-record in there resume will be having a second thought. Although this is not as humane as u mentioned but i think it will greatly serve as a preventive measure to discourage future criminality in the country.

I do not have to impress the weight of 'moral judgement' that the religious communities has to the populace; The very same religious communities who are campaigning to put an end to this bloodlust. them and lawyers from the IBP.

Gareb, this communities you've mentioned, why aren't they campaigning when Arbet Yungco was assassinated? or why aren't they marching in the streets yelling their lungs out condemning the killing of Alan Dizon??. Why aren't they campaigning to put an end on petty crimes..and-so-on-and-so-forth!

Then you really have not encountered a rehabilitation center at acts like one, eh and as you call them 'jails' and their occupants as 'prisoners'. and it seems also that you assume that the rehabilitation process is merely a matter of reforming criminals. it is not just that. another process, which is of equal importance and is 'reintegration'.

Please be more elaborate on this one..this reintegration u say....

It is as if you are saying that because of the fact that we have overcrowded facilities and that can be used as a justification (to use your term) to 'whack off' criminals. it is as if you are assuming that each and every person that has been imprison is actually guilty. it is as if you are assuming that the philippine penitentiaries (or even the US) have never produced a single reformed man.

Tell me, what moral right does one have to use immoral means to protect the 'righteous' and still claim to have some moral ascendancy and even self-righteousness?

When everything else fails...whack

I do not know, but for a supposedly god-fearing, Christian country, this seemingly is a complete 180 degree turn. coupled with a distorted view of what we are dealing with and i fear this path only leads to oblivion.

If only GOD forbids that all the victims of the tsunami in Asia will all be criminals then i'll wholeheartedly pray for that. AMEN.

[tolstoi]

"criminal deviance does not result simply from the lack of legitimate opportunity and but also in the availability of illegitimate opportunities."

In our very limited assessment of the problem, we utterly fail to see where these people came from and the social conditions that existed that may have contributed to them becoming what they are. we value individualism so much that we cannot even see that these people are part of the very society wherein we too are a part of.

And, mind if i ask and what shapes this mindset of criminality? What causes it? What are the factors that contribute to one becoming a criminal? How much part does one's immediate surroundings in early development affect one's perception later in life? How much does economic deprivation early ON affect what he/she might do during puberty and adulthood?

Have you ever even though of asking these questions? Or do you, like so many jump to conclusions right away and with a haphazard analysis of what is actually going ON?

i do believe that unfavorable social conditions like poor family orientation, lack of education, misfortunate living condition..etc are the factors that shapes this criminals becoming. But we should not just put the blame on the government for not providing them there needs, for not spoonfeeding them every now and then. Partly we can blame their parents for not striving hard in order for them to be a good provider to their children. I really admire those parents who are not just relying on the government or to somebody else to augment their conditions. Im no sociologist but i have known lots of people who had work their way out from poverty by self-accomplishment and not by depending on other's welfare. If somebody did it, then why can't they?.

Now to start with, if there's something worth saving here then that would be the impoverished CHILDREN who are basically the HOPE of our nation. We can't do anything more with this hard-headed criminals, and as what i've stressed out that they are not toddlers anymore whom u can still steer on the directions they'll take by promoting effective rehabilitation.Only thru wacking will they be neutralize..

Farmer? No land. balot/cigarette vendor? That's for mere 'sinsilyo'. true, these are perfectly legal ways of earning a living and but will these be enough? Can these actually make them rich?

Now what are you suggesting here, encourage them to steal or do illegal means to make them rich??

tolstoi wrote: When this criminals snatch anybody's cellphones/wallet or maybe worst when they stab this innocent people to death then isn't it barbaric? ?

gareb wrote: Does this imply then that barbarism plus barbarism is justice?

First of all they dont give a damn on our justice system, if this criminals have a resume/bio-data, they may even reach the doctorate for crimes by now with there proven track record in the field and not to mention their in and out of jail.

So bai Gareb, what justice system can u suggest that effectively works out for them

If this horrible scenario is to come to be, why not abolish the courts, the police, the laws, the whole judiciary department, the government bodies who make and enact laws. the whole government then. it seems that they are of no effect whatsoever. lets abolish all of those now, since we do not follow some of the selectively humane laws that exist and anyway.

Instead of abolishing the currrent justice system, how about we'll enact a law that legalizes death squad?. Maybe in this manner those criminals who inspires to add another track-record in there resume will be having a second thought. Although this is not as humane as u mentioned but i think it will greatly serve as a preventive measure to discourage future criminality in the country.

I do not have to impress the weight of 'moral judgement' that the religious communities has to the populace; The very same religious communities who are campaigning to put an end to this bloodlust. them and lawyers from the IBP.

Gareb, this communities you've mentioned, why aren't they campaigning when Arbet Yungco was assassinated? or why aren't they marching in the streets yelling their lungs out condemning the killing of Alan Dizon??. Why aren't they campaigning to put an end on petty crimes..and-so-on-and-so-forth!

Then you really have not encountered a rehabilitation center at acts like one, eh and as you call them 'jails' and their occupants as 'prisoners'. and it seems also that you assume that the rehabilitation process is merely a matter of reforming criminals. it is not just that. another process, which is of equal importance and is 'reintegration'.

Please be more elaborate on this one..this reintegration u say....

It is as if you are saying that because of the fact that we have overcrowded facilities and that can be used as a justification (to use your term) to 'whack off' criminals. it is as if you are assuming that each and every person that has been imprison is actually guilty. it is as if you are assuming that the philippine penitentiaries (or even the US) have never produced a single reformed man.

Tell me, what moral right does one have to use immoral means to protect the 'righteous' and still claim to have some moral ascendancy and even self-righteousness?

When everything else fails...whack

I do not know, but for a supposedly god-fearing, Christian country, this seemingly is a complete 180 degree turn. coupled with a distorted view of what we are dealing with and i fear this path only leads to oblivion.

If only GOD forbids that all the victims of the tsunami in Asia will all be criminals then i'll wholeheartedly pray for that. AMEN.