THE POPE underfire!!!

[arabianchristian]

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The Mujahideen of Iraq declared:

We tell the worshipper of the cross (the Pope) that you and the West will be defeated, as is the case in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, and elsewhere,” said the Mujahideen Shura Council, the Sunni Arab and Iraq branch of al Qaeda. “We shall break (smash) the cross and spill the wine (reference to the Eucharist?), impose a head tax, then the only thing acceptable is a conversion (to Islam) or (death) by the sword. … God will (aid) Muslims to conquer Rome … (May) God enable us to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the mujahideen. You infidels and despots, we will continue our jihad (holy war) and never stop until God avails us to chop your necks and raise the fluttering banner of monotheism when God’s rule is established governing all people and nations. … Jihad continues and should never stop until the dooms day where this religion ends victorious.”

That last bit is at the heart of a traditional definition of the word ISLAM which means PEACE, but the PEACE OF SUBMISSION AND CONQUEST.

150 demonstrators in Basra, Iraq chanted slogans and burned an effigy of the Pope.

It seems that many radical Moslems might have actually understood the Pope’s message about peace, and that is precisely what they are rejecting, both in word and deed. This is why no papal apology will suffice. It seems to me that we must immediately expell any Moslems from the Western world who come here believing in Jihad. It is incompatible with our freedoms, rights and democracy. How such a thing could be done, I do not know. We may have waited too long.

We are entering a new era for the Church in the modern world. One small quote in an academic lecture has acted as a catalyst for a clash of cultures and worldviews that can no longer be ignored.

Will Christians convert in droves to save their lives and to avoid the head tax?

Will believers allow the Pope to be murdered without comment or defense?

Will we allow our churches to be desecrated and the cross or crucifix made an illegal symbol as in Saudi Arabia?

Do we have the courage to die by the sword in fidelity to our faith and to Christ crucified?

What price will we be willing to pay?

.. you already have an existing account, istoryador. use that.

[arabianchristian]

I just feel that they too have a right to exist, as the more enlightened peoiple like yourself know that not all muslims are extremists, and not all muslims strap bombs on their kids, and not all muslims would kill a christian if given a chance...

The majority of muslims also have dreams like we do, love like we do, look into their kids eyes like we do, pray and worship their God like we do... let us not be quick to judge, as we are all brothers trying to make our way in this world...

What constitutes an insult worthy of the death sentence? If you have been following the news, it is clear. Cartoons and editorials, books that are critical of fanaticism, converts to Christianity from their numbers, indeed, some would argue that the mere "presence" of the Christian infidel is an offense worthy of persecution, imprisonment, torture and death. Islam means peace, when the whole world is Moslem, and the Jew and Christian are only footnotes in history.

Islam means SUBMISSION. Now that the West has lost its Christian soul, it should be easy pickings for the followers of Mohammed.

[arabianchristian]

While many are arguing that the Holy Father needs more supervision to ensure that ignorant fanatics will not read the wrong things into his messages, Silvio Berlusconi (former Italian PM) suggested a very interesting hypothesis. He suspects that the Pope made a deliberate attempt to test the waters, and to do so with a “positive provocation”. He said, “And so for this reason he is a great pope, with a great intelligence.” It does reveal to the Western world the danger that faces us and certainly touches upon topics like immigration, the loss of faith identity in the West, the precarious addition of Turkey to the EU and just how extensive and volatile is world-Islam.

The Pope has not retracted his abhorence of the Islamic notion of Jihad and said that any “holy war” or violence in the name of religion is in contradiction to the nature of God and human reason. Unless Moslems renounce this element of their religion or somehow reform the concept in the Koran, then violence and intolerance will continue and we will not have, as the Holy Father says, “that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today.”

The Pope preached peace, and he has received abuse and the Church has suffered violence. He has taken the moral high ground, something I hope the Protestant community and even secular humanists will see and understand

[arabianchristian]

The Pontiff Has a Point

His take on Islam, however clumsy, raises tough truths about reason and religion

By JEFF ISRAELY


One of the signature buzzwords of John Paul II's papacy was "dialogue." So committed was he to seeking common ground with leaders of different faiths that he all but institutionalized the process in 1986 by hosting the first of a series of interreligious gatherings in the medieval Italian town of Assisi. It was well known in Vatican circles that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, among the Pope's most loyal lieutenants, was lukewarm to the Assisi enthusiasm. The German Cardinal was, after all, among the world's most rigorous (and traditionalist) Catholic theologians, skeptical of any attempt to water down differences among faiths. Still, when that same theologian became Pope Benedict XVI, he understood that the hard-won lines of communication with the world's other faiths must stay open.

But rather than dialogue, the Pope now faces the need to perform major interfaith damage control. The outcry in the Muslim world that followed his provocative lecture last week on faith and reason--and the origins of holy war--is evidence that the 79-year-old Benedict needs to work on the diplomatic requirements of his new job. In the speech at Regensburg University, he opened a much broader theological exploration by quoting these words of a 14th century Byzantine Emperor: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Perhaps Islamic sensibilities could have been spared if the speech had included a clear indication that the Pope did not agree with the inflammatory words from 600 years ago. Still, the fallout doesn't mean that the speech was a mistake or that a Pope can never mention Muhammad. In fact, the 35-minute discourse could turn out to be the most important step forward for interfaith dialogue since that first meeting in Assisi. It could also set off a new round of anti-Western violence by angry Muslims. Or both. Such is the world that this shy, academic-minded pastor was presented with 17 months ago when he became Pope. The buzzwords today are 9/11, clash of civilizations, jihad--and old formulas must now be replaced by hard, new thinking, even at the risk of offending sensibilities.

This theologian in chief for a billion Catholics should not shy away from serious theology. Benedict's razor-sharp intellect is the best skill he has to offer his church--and potentially the world as well. When he turned that brainpower toward the realm of interreligious relations in last week's speech, Benedict shifted the terms of a debate that has been dominated by either feel-good truisms, victimization complexes or hateful confrontation. He sought instead to delineate what he sees as a fundamental difference between Christianity's view that God is intrinsically linked to reason (the Greek concept of Logos) and Islam's view that "God is absolutely transcendent."

Benedict said Islam teaches that God's "will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality." The risk he sees implicit in this concept of the divine is that the irrationality of violence might thereby appear to be justified to someone who believes it is God's will. The essential question, he said, was this: "Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God's nature ... always and intrinsically true?"

His questions were not reserved only for the Islamic world. As he has done before, Benedict spoke about the need for the West, especially Europe, to reverse its tendency toward godless secularism. He believes that the gift of reason that he cherishes in Christianity has been warped by the West into an absolutist doctrine. And that too, he believes, prevents the opening of a productive channel for dialogue with a more faithful Islamic society. "Reason and faith," he insisted, must "come together in a new way."

Toward the end of his lecture, Benedict said, "It is to this great Logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures." Indeed, just last month, on the 20th anniversary of that first Assisi encounter, the Pope sent to the Bishop of Assisi a written message that heralded John Paul's promotion of peaceful dialogue among religions. If Benedict can acquire enough of his predecessor's political touch, the theologian's hard thinking may help the West begin the difficult conversation with its Islamic brothers--one that includes a clear definition of differences as well as a search for common ground--that is so badly needed.

[jay_sn0w]

lisod ne..tao ra cya..iyaha man jd sayop...4 me christianity did bad in my opinion...

[mata_hari]

reading the news... i don't think the pope meant to insult Muslim faith... The pope?! Being considered as one of the wisest and holiest person alive. Hhmmm, well it could be taken that the Muslims may be too sensitive over the issue, misunderstood it or something...

But then again, perhaps the pope may have tripped a little but I guess to clarify things, he should be apologetical over the issue so that we could go on with our lives...

[sister maria]

The pope?! Being considered as one of the wisest and holiest person alive.

he's considered an intellectual perhaps... but not a wise one... certainly not considered holiest, since he was elected to lead the catholic church... and not chosen by god as others would like to think... by man, more like it.

[dacs]

he's considered an intellectual perhaps... but not a wise one... certainly not considered holiest, since he was elected to lead the catholic church... and not chosen by god as others would like to think... by man, more like it.

You are certainly on the right thread, Sister Maria. With you, the Pope is indeed under fire.

he's considered an intellectual perhaps... but not a wise one...

How did you know this? Do you know him personally? Have you spent time talking to him? Have you, by any chance, have personally investigate the kind of man he is?

certainly not considered holiest, since he was elected to lead the catholic church...

Nge!

How did you arrived to that conclusion?

and not chosen by god as others would like to think... by man, more like it.

I pray that you will tell us how would someone know if a person is chosen by God.

[arnoldsa]

^^

Yeah, exactly.. The Pope might have just been elected (by the Cardinals per se) but I guess we can also say that he was chosen by God.

To say that God didn't play a part in his election would be tantamount to saying that God isn't playing a role in the world today.

[arnoldsa]

Bai you are wrong in posting those pictures and making them represent as "Christians."

Those human rights abuses were committed by the "Americans" and "British" per se as officials and soldiers of their respective countries and not as representatives of "Christianity" as a whole.

The pictures that were posted by desertfather/snmp or whoever he may be, was more directly "linked" to Islam, why? Because most of these fanatics link the Islamic religion with war. Like for example some extremists call for a war in the "name of allah" so that "infidels will be converted to their religion", whatever.. Most of the bombings, murders, and other human rights abuses being carried out by the extremists are all done in the name of their religion.

Did those British/American soldiers committed those human rights abuses in Iraq in the name of the "Pope" or of the Christian God? Did they let those prisoners strip because they were "Muslims?"  I don't think so. And oh, most Americans are not catholic but protestants.

For me, they committed those abuses because those were their "prisoners of war" and you know how abusive soldiers sometimes become be they the Japanese (during WWII) or the Germans, or what..

[i]Pic omitted.  Please do not include pictures in quoting.
@ Desert Father: Does this mean a reverse-crusade...?

Those pictures you posted do not at all reflect the muslim population.

How about the "Christians":

[i]Pic omitted.&#160; Please do not include pictures in quoting. <--- there's your prom queen!&#160;

[i]Pic omitted.&#160; Please do not include pictures in quoting. <--- the teaching of Jesus, love one another... :mrgreen:

[i]Pic omitted.&#160; Please do not include pictures in quoting. <---doesnt that picture just make you wanna say "AMEN!"

Christians just love peace, its soooo obvious... look at the crusades, the inquisition, the holocaust, the atomic bomb, etc... THEY JUST LOVE IT!




This is pure horse poop! There are many who escaped the Hitlerjugend, the Ratzingers just did not want to give up their freedoms and head for the mountains...