Loose Change 2nd Edition - 9/11 Conspiracy Documentary

[Visual C#]

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Ahh, so the US doesnt kill humans? you contradict your previous statement... anyway, maybe you should look up what your IDOL, the US did to get into WWII... They let the Japanese attack pearl harbor... now if that aint killing their own people, then what is...?

I'm sorry, but I stopped taking you seriously when I read more of this asinine piece of BS that you call 'fact'. You're going to rewrite history now, dude? I heard that they were hiring for more writers for latest conspiracy theory novel.

Unless there is HARD and UNCONTROVERTIBLE EVIDENCE that the U.S. government is DIRECTLY responsible to the September 11 attacks (i.e., recorded conversations, official documents, email correspondence, etc.), tying KEY GOVERNMENT officials and department heads to this so-called 'conspiracy', then I'll take back everything I said. But all you have is a single website ]http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html[/url]
http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman...cle_1253.shtml
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...cstillwell.DTL

There are other conspiracy theories that you may need to look at? Life is too short for focusing on just one conspiracy theory.

Moving this to Politics & Events...

[tolstoi]

@Viktor

we consider the news clippings, live commentaries, interviews..etc from the LOOSE CHANGE 2 documentary as hard facts. why don't you see this video first then give your debunking afterwards :mrgreen:

[Visual C#]

I have seen the video, and frankly, I don't consider blurry photos and videos shown out of context as FACT. Wildly inconsistent theories and explanations of these so-called 'experts' who pretend to know everything is not fact, it is but a modern collection of badly concocted fairy tales.

News clippings, commentaries, interviews again from so called 'experts' again is even more dangerous. They distort reality in such a way that is just very dangerous to society as a whole.

Again, I challenge the 'experts' on this: WHERE IS THE UNCONTROVERTIBLE EVIDENCE I referred to in the previous post? Where is it? Gone with the wind? How awfully convenient. What makes these collection of incoherent 'news and 'facts' more believable than anything else?

[Streetcar]

Too much ado about anything. Look at the bigger picture. Dont sweat the small stuff. The fact is, The US was attacked by terrorists.

[Santini]

the movie, fahrenheit 911 has some pretty cool insights. i'd recommend the people to watch it.

[weedmeister2]

I'm sorry, but I stopped taking you seriously when I read more of this asinine piece of BS that you call 'fact'. You're going to rewrite history now, dude? I heard that they were hiring for more writers for latest conspiracy theory novel.

Hahaha, I can't believe that you haven't read up or heard the news on Pearl Harbor... The books have already been written, and the US Government has already reacted by once again classifying the documents that were already declassified under the Freedom of Information Act...(how stupid can they get...?)

Pearl Harbor was FDR's way to get into WWII... I suggest you read up on Robert Stinnett's book "Day of Deceit"... here is a little part of a review on it:

To those who believe that government conspiracies can’t possibly happen, Day Of Deceit could prove to them otherwise. Stinnett’s well-documented book makes a convincing case that the highest officials of the government—including the highest official—fooled and deceived millions of Americans about one of the most important days in the history of the country. It now has to be considered one of the most definitive—if not the definitive—book on the subject. Gore Vidal has said, “…Robert Stinnet has come up with most of the smoking guns. Day Of Deceit shows that the famous ‘surprise’ attack was no surprise to our war-minded rulers…” And John Toland, the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of the Pearl Harbor book, Infamy, said, “Step by step, Stinnett goes through the prelude to war, using new documents to reveal the terrible secrets that have never been disclosed to the public. It is disturbing that eleven presidents, including those I admired, kept the truth from the public until Stinnett’s Freedom of Information Act requests finally persuaded the Navy to release the evidence.”

And some sites on it:

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408
http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpWESSEX...earlharbor.htm

You need to read more, old boy...

Unless there is HARD and UNCONTROVERTIBLE EVIDENCE that the U.S. government is DIRECTLY responsible to the September 11 attacks (i.e., recorded conversations, official documents, email correspondence, etc.), tying KEY GOVERNMENT officials and department heads to this so-called 'conspiracy', then I'll take back everything I said.

...but for the moment, you'll just take what they shove down your throat...? hehehe, I'm not here to make you believe, Viktor. You came into my thread and started refuting my evidence by sarcastically calling me "genius", and labelling what i put forth as "conspiracy theories", and accusing me of spreading FUD...

Well, you can call me names, but what, then would you call someone who ignores common sense, and keeps swallowing the dung that is shovelled down their throat, just so they are not lumped with the "crazy conspirators"...?

But all you have is a single website link (which links to more unsubstantiated BS, and BTW doesn't really list facts at all) and a Google video, and a pretty vague understanding of global politics, fact gathering, science, good old common sense, and a whole mountain of SPECULATION and IMAGINATION, which is the only thing that conspiracy theorists like you are good at. Your conspiracy theories and the others don't even match at all; nothing but a horrendous potpourri of misinformation, paranoia, and FUD.

Viktor, Viktor, Viktor... If I posted 30 links to websites, would you go through them all? Hey, if you honestly say you will, i'd be glad to post them... so, will you read them? :mrgreen:

I think someone here has "a pretty vague understanding of global politics", but it ain't me bro... Not that my Political Science degree from DLSU means much, but it might actually help to open my eyes to the more Machiavellian twists and turns of the different governments, spanning different continents, ruled by different races with different cultures, and different moods and situations... Of course, one cannot truly master it, given the spectrum of factors that come into play, but throughout all my reading and study, one thing that Lord Acton said remains constant throughout history:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

And who in this world has ABSOLUTE power like the POTUS does?



Anyhow, as a free service to readers of this thread, and to show that Machiavellian politics still applies now, as it did back then, I will go OT and give some pointers on Government, as enumerated by Niccolo Machiavelli, whom I regard as the Sun Tzu of politics:

One who deceives will always find those who allow themselves to be deceived.

Politics have no relation to morals. :mrgreen:

Princes and governments are far more dangerous than other elements within society.

The first method for estimating the intelligence of a ruler is to look at the men he has around him.

It is not titles that honor men, but men that honor titles.

It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver.

A son can bear with equanimity the loss of his father, but the loss of his inheritance may drive him to despair.





Now, enough of the political chit-chat, let's move on to your other points:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html

Shall we strike this out, as it has already been found out that the Benjamin Chertoff, the 25-year-old "senior researcher" of Popular Mechanics who has researched and produced the current cover story "Debunking the Lies of 9/11, is a cousin of Michael Chertoff, the new head of the Dept. of Homeland Security...?

Hmmm, now maybe I should post more links, so you won't think I'm making it up...

http://www.rense.com/general63/bellchert.htm
http://www.politicalfriendster.com/r...id1=4310&id2=1
http://www.letsroll911.org/phpwebsit...age&PAGE_id=33

Anyhow, had he still been a valid source, his blatant lies would have been debunked either way:

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_me..._mechanics.htm
http://www.ubersite.com/m/85963

http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman...cle_1253.shtml

Maybe you should see for yourself, before you actually believe what your site says:
http://www.freedomunderground.org/me...tagon.php#Main

I'm sure you've seen some pictures of real plane crashes before... can you honestly say, without any bias, if the images of the Pentagon and Flight 93 were shown to you without you knowing the surrounding circumstances, that they were plane crashes...? You should really look for yourself...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...cstillwell.DTL

Hey, I never said anything about the Jews... although we all know that the US backs them... Look at them go at Lebanon with no consequences whatsover from the "world police", the US... Had Saddam done the same, how many minutes do you think he'd last...? hehehe

Here are more very interesting links you might want to go through:

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=5860 <---- very interesting video collection
http://www.flight93crash.com/


Anyhow, you did NOT answer ANY of the questions in my previous posts... but I foresaw that already... It's simple really, you don't have any answers...

You present me with more crap generated from the US Govt, but how stupid do they think we are...? Even on just one item, they are already DEBUNKED... How do they intend to cuckold us into thinking that the WTC fires burned hot enough to demolish the towers, when we could CLEARLY see LIVING PEOPLE waving from the windows and IMPACT HOLES? Had there been superheated plasma hot enough to melt steel, do you think those people would still be standing instead of being VAPORISED?

There are other conspiracy theories that you may need to look at? Life is too short for focusing on just one conspiracy theory.

Trying to lump the 9/11 attacks with the likes of the Loch Ness Monster will not really get you any debate or IQ points, Viktor... But yes, there are a lot of valid "conspiracy theories" like JFK, Pearl Harbor, Man on the Moon, and I would really love to stay and chat with you about all of them, but then again I would be off topic, and honestly, I don't have the time... maybe in the future bai... :mrgreen:

[tolstoi]

Shall we strike this out, as it has already been found out that the Benjamin Chertoff, the 25-year-old "senior researcher" of Popular Mechanics who has researched and produced the current cover story "Debunking the Lies of 9/11, is a cousin of Michael Chertoff, the new head of the Dept. of Homeland Security...?

$14.95 raba ang baligya nila sa book sa B&N..kinsa mupalit order lang dire

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...sbn=158816635X

=)

[weedmeister2]

hehehe, thanks tolz, here's some of the reviews by readers: (from B&N)


A reviewer, August 10, 2006,
This is the blue pill...
If you want to keep sleeping and ignore the truth, read this book, watch your MTV, buy your $5 gas, and give up your civil liberties. If you choose to take the red pill, you'll wake up and realize that this world is truly messed up and in trouble. Disbelieve all you want. Listen to all the right-wing 'experts'. Watch all of the talking-heads on Fox and all the other networks. I only ask that if you read this propaganda, please at least look at some contradictory material and decide for yourselves what to believe. Loose Change may not be the best documentary to make an argument about the truth for 9/11, but at least it tries to make a convincing one. Do your own searching America... don't let the government be the only ones to tell you what to believe.
Also recommended: David Ray Griffin - The 9/11 Commission, Omissions and Distortions



The V, a member of the real world, August 7, 2006,
Debunking the Debunkers
The real facts can be found on the internet anywhere you look. This book sets up strawman arguments and ignores alot of the main points of evidence brought up in response to 911. If you want to know why PM is not credible on this. you need only to look up the name Chertoff. And how it associates to this article. The REAL truth is out there.




Hmmm, I guess not ALL americans are blindfolded....

[Visual C#]

Unless there is HARD and UNCONTROVERTIBLE EVIDENCE that the U.S. government is DIRECTLY responsible to the September 11 attacks (i.e., recorded conversations, official documents, email correspondence, etc.), tying KEY GOVERNMENT officials and department heads to this so-called 'conspiracy', then I'll take back everything I said.

Remains to be answered, ho hum... until then, your stories remain as fairy tales. You don't convince me at all. For the record, I am no US government fanboi. I am just against wildly inaccurate, completely out of this world statements about conspiracy X, and how each conspiracy theorist is suddenly an expert in global politics, science and technology, and human civilization in general.

And you had to bring this up:

Not that my Political Science degree from DLSU means much,

Oh, I'm sorry, it seems that I have been completely dwarfed by your greatness. I bow down now to how great and intelligent you are. I now believe in everything that you say.

Again, ALL of these collections of stories remain to be completely incoherent. How much of the conspiracy do you believe? How much of the story do you believe? How do you know that this site is telling the truth, and the other is not? You can't tell, can you? Your collective's inconsistent stories completely destroy any credibility you have.

[weedmeister2]

Viktor,

The fact that thousands of websites across the world, and millions of people are up in arms against one Government, against one group of men, and even 1/3 of this government's citizens are also questioning the happenings of 9/11 means that THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG!

But since you failed to answer any of my questions, well, its all moot and academic... I write long tirades, and link so many sites full of information, but no... you're not one to even read or research before you start clacking away at your keyboard, so, fine, my theory is full of BS, yours is flawless... get it over and done with... I'd rather debate with a mop.


As for this:

Oh, I'm sorry, it seems that I have been completely dwarfed by your greatness. I bow down now to how great and intelligent you are. I now believe in everything that you say.

You can get up now...

Anyhow, i stated that because i thought that you were the kind who would believe that one gets meat from a butcher, guns from a gunsmith, fish from a fishmonger, legal advice from an attorney, medical treatment from a doctor, architectural drawings from an architect, etc...

I guess you would rather buy a gun from a fishmonger...