MERGED: Naruto Discussions

[yen]

Post below is mostly theories. Stick to the manga, anime, character guide books for canon facts

You make it sound as if I hadn’t thought it through. Maybe when I said we assumed it that we didn’t take time to think everything, but this is not what I mean. What I meant was even if we have thought it through, our conclusions are still out of the manga, therefore still our own assumptions, however logical our conclusions may be.

No no. It's like this.

First you asked a question.

Then, I answered. I wrote a theory that I hoped will answer your question. I even put warning labels so that there is no misunderstanding. It's all theories. This means you don't have to believe me OR maybe my theories will help you come up with your own theories.

I have a fear of theories being mistaken as canon fact really.

Then, you started nitpicking my theories. This of course means I have to defend my theories.

My theories have been with me for a long long time. They've gone through a lot of revisions and changes in my own head.

For the first quote, I understood your reasoning the first time around.

For the second & third quote. What was I questioning? I was not satisfied how Itachi killed off his clan and everything. What theories? I don’t have my own theories. And I haven’t posted any theory of how Itachi killed his clan, did I? It just didn’t make sense to me. Along the way of discussing this topic, we’ve come across some points which we have differed in opinion. I have already said that we have already established this. Anyways, I thought I have made it obvious that since you cant convince me of your opinions, that I don’t expect my opinions to convince you either. No hard feelings. We just don’t see eye-to-eye.

Okay, here's the problem. You *thought* I was trying to force my theories on you.

Ugh. Trust me. No way. I'm totally against forcing theories on other people. That's why I even put warning signs on long posts I write.

Demo. Before nitpicking other people's theories, you should at least come up with your own theories first.

It's like... before bashing down someone's sandcastle, try building your own sandcastle first. You'll see it's not easy. It's the same with theories.

Besides, I'm happy with my theories. You, on the other hand, are still stuck on plot holes.

Yes. That’s my stand. And yes, they can just grab any Hyuuga or Uchiha. (sigh) I have also said what I want to say in this matter. But I say it again, though, as I said earlier, I don’t expect you to share my view.

Its like this, if you get a cake, wouldn’t you like it to have icing too? So, if you get just any Hyuuga, will you be satisfied that you wont also get the secrets to the Kaiten and the 64-hit combo and what ever other techniques the main family has? That’s what I meant when I said “why settle for less�.

Because it's a little nuts to go after the head if you can get the little guys, dissect them and still come up with the genes that will give you the Sharingan and White Eyes.

Besides, you can't learn techniques from a dead guy. Hinata's father's *body* was what the Cloud nins demanded as compensation. How in the world are they going to get the techniques from a dead guy?

On the other hand, they can dissect him for the *biological* secrets to Byakugan.

Plus, there's a good reason why they would want Hinata. (sighs shrugs) Breeding stock.

We are taught historical figures … they are not necessarily heroes. There is a difference. Some are heroes, yes, but sad to say, most are just ambitious persons wanting to gain, or have gained more power, wealth, and territory. And no, I didn’t want to argue about actual heroes. I didn’t brought it up.

Yah. I bought it up but you challenged the idea of *heroism.* You even said I was thinking Hollywood. (ugh) It was a little insulting.

Anyway, like it or not. There's always an elite class. The cream of the crop. Etc. Etc. The geniuses and the naturally talented. That's why I think that in a clan, only a small percentage can do a 100% of what the rest of their clan can only dream of.

They are clannish techniques, taught only in the clan, but they are not BL (or advanced BL) techniques. It is not stated in the manga that they are BL (advanced or otherwise) techniques. Lets stick to what the manga says. If I’m mistaken, kindly direct me to which chapter and page, maybe I missed it.

And Kiba. Well, I was supposed to include him in the last post, but I forgot his name, I just remembered his dog, Akamaru.

You wrote Kiba, not Akamaru. So you remembered his name.

Yup. They are not advanced BL but they are still blood-related. Who knows? Maybe later on, they will be considered advanced BL. They just need to improve their techniques.

You can at least concur that their techniques use tools/instruments unlike advanced BL/BL that is inherent – no instruments/tools necessary.

Uh... no... Ino uses her mind - that's inherent. Shino uses his body to house insects - that's inherent. Chou uses his body also. Shikamaru also uses his shadow. Sasuke and Hyuuga and Hinata uses their eyes.

This is what I mean by bloodline techniques. There is something about their bodies that is unique - that no one else can duplicate via practice.

Let's see... am I missing anyone...?

The ones that uses weapons are Tenten, Karasu, Temari... Gaara uses sand. Rock Lee, of course, is just plain hard work and practice. Kiba has his pet.

Hyuuga w/ black eyes? Hehehe I don’t know, that sounds yucky . I stick to what I think. Hyuuga or Uchiha or any clan with an advanced BL can learn how to use byakugan/sharingan. But only a few can learn the clan’s most treasured techniques.

Well, I don’t think I understand how you interpreted my post, but anyhow, I’ve said what I want to say.

Ah. That white eyes of theirs is a natural eye coloring but Byakugan isn't activated until you see their veins popping on their faces.

I know that's what you think. But I prefer the elitist theory. You see, a lot of other things don't make sense if everyone in a clan has their advanced BL.

#1 Haku's clan couldn't have possibly been exterminated if everyone in his clan can do what he does. When his power was suddenly activated under pressure, immense shards of ice popped out of the ground.

#2 Other ninja villages will have a field day if all they have to do is kidnap any Uchiha or Hyuuga.

#3 If it's easy to propagate bloodlines, why only in a clan? Practically everyone in a village is likely to be related one way or another to everyone else.

It goes on and on. Also, the more advanced BL users, the less important those ABLs are.

What … and its unnatural not to uncover hidden talent or activate dormant ability in intense conditions? This situation happens in almost all anime/manga? Why not activating Byakugan/Sharingan?

Cause... look what happen to Sasuke when he found Itachi standing over the bodies of their dead parents.

And... well... Itachi did kill off the entire clan. How can you explain that?

I did say that I follow your reasoning, I’m just not convinced.

I also followed your reasoning but honestly... I'm the one who's not stuck at the plot holes. At least I've thought of ways to make the story make better sense.

Ano... you want me to be stuck at plot holes too?

… via practice and/or if they are subjected to intense conditions.

Err... the Uchiha clan was massacred. Haku's clan was massacred. The Hyuuga are protective of their clan eventhough they are very powerful. Evidently, it will take more than practice and life-threathening situations to bring out those advanced BLs.

Hell... Hyuuga even sacrificed Neji's dad to make sure the secret of the Byakugan stay within the clan.

It's going to be a lot harder keeping White Eyes exclusive if every Hyuuga has White Eyes.

I will quote what is said in the manga. Iruka said to Naruto “That is a dangerous scroll that has forbidden ninjutsu sealed within it.� Its not a scroll that has forbidden ninjutsu for genins and chuunins, its forbidden for everybody.

Note... that's Iruka. He's *very* protective of Naruto. And it is a Jounin-level technique.

Also, it would be silly to make such a useful technique forbidden. All the other villages use it.

Pls yen, you yourself said to stick to the manga. I have been sticking to the manga. Its forbidden when there’s risk. Period. There is no OR, IF and whatever. Like I said, forbidden is forbidden.

(groans) Don't tell me that. For goodness' sakes, Naruto uses it all the time. Why haven't they excommunicated him? Huh?

He's not the only one either. Kakashi uses it also.

Again, if they say it's forbidden - it's not the same kind of forbidden as what Orochimaru or Itachi did. With them, the village had no choice but to excommunicate them.

Those two were killing people to learn new techniques. When you learn Kage no Bunshin, the only one in mortal danger is yourself. The forbidden warning for Kage no Bunshin would be like "Government warning: Smoking is hazardous for your health."

You have to flexible. Words can have shades of meaning.

Oh, Ok. I thought you meant it literally too coz you mentioned something about time travel or something (were you joking around?).

Well then lets use plot holes. I used loophole coz of a lack of a better term.

See? I was being flexible when you used loophole instead of plothole. I got what you mean even though it's technically the wrong word to use.

I'm also flexible with the word *forbidden* in Naruto. It's either be flexible or be stuck with a lot of plot holes.

About the time travel thing --- most what seems to be plot holes in stories can be explained. Usually there is a way to explain them.

But time travel paradoxes are other thing. Extremely difficult to resolve them. Usually the only way they can be solved is if you add-in multiple universes but it's very unsatisfying in the aesthetic and ethical sense. (ugh)

The "plot holes" you say you see in Naruto is practically nothing to the time travelling paradox plot holes I've seen in too many other stories.

By the way... how about typing up a theory or two of your own to explain how Itachi could have possibly killed off his clan? Hmm?

So far, you haven't been able to convince or to persuade me that my theories are wrong. This is funny, because I'm not the one who has a problem with the storyline in Naruto in the first place.

Should be your theories we should be nitpicking, and don't tell me you don't have any theories, please. Since you've been nitpicking my theories, you must have theories of your own.

[vanceloma]

3rd hikae man gani gamit kage bushin.

akong understanding sa BL kay...

imong family naay history na maau mu drowing, pero naay uban na dili maka draw o wala gyud talent ana. ikaw cguro maau cguro ka mu drowing pero d gyud pareho sa imung legendary DAD na si Da vinci.

[animelover]

Opps ... sorry for the double post. I cant delete the first one.

[samokan]

too long .. too many to read !!

Naruto is still an overrated anime

[yen]

Post below is mostly theories. Stick to the manga, anime, character guide books for canon facts

Hehe. ^^ Playing it safe also, aren't you?

Ditto. Only take what's in the manga and anime and character guides as canon fact.

Yeah, actually I had concluded something from our discussions. That is if I cant accept Itachi killing his clan by himself using only taijutsu, then there’s only 2 explanations: he had some help; or I have to accept him being an all-powerful ninja (hah! Still had a bitter taste, if you know what I mean…)

I sympathize with you but that's not what's bugging me the most about Naruto.

It's not exactly a plothole but it is bugging me. My problem is the high failure rate in Kinoha. Maybe it's easier to advance in other villages but aren't they supposed to be tougher?

In Naruto's year, only 9 out of 30 academy students qualified to be genins. It was even worse in the previous year, only 3 out of 30 became genins.

And the Chuunin exam... hell... only 1 out of hundreds made it.

Well, you sounded offended when I said I’m not convinced. Naturally I thought you expect to convince me.

I wasn't offended. But I was a bit bugged. You started nitpicking at my theories instead of providing your own alternative theories.

You see. My theories not only stand by themselves, they also meshed with each other. They are like links in a chain or bricks in a wall. If one theory is weak, the rest is also weak.

Anyway, I found it more tiring (typing) than difficult to defend against your nitpicks. You honestly haven't said anything that would make me want to revise my theories. In fact, discussing with you has made me even more convinced of my theories.

Why is it nuts to go after the head? You will not only get the most important (or next important person), you most certainly put that clan/village to a disadvantage for doing so. Yes, its risky. Its always risky to get the most valuable. Why not hit two birds with one stone?

It's nuts when you have virtually no chance of getting the head.

It's like gambling. Try to win a little at a time instead of aiming for the jackpot.

No? How come Oro learned the immortality jutsu (or whatever it was) from dead nins? Didn’t he experiment on dead bodies to know the secrets of how to prolong LIFE? The cloud nins can do the same. This is the Naruto world, not the real world.

No no. We're taking about different kinds of techniques. Those techniques Neji uses. Kaiten? Closing chakra holes? Those are techniques you *can't* learn from dissecting a body. They have be taught, explained, demonstrated, shown, practiced.

The one who knows them has to be alive in order to show others how to do them.

Hey, I don’t deny that there’s an elite class. But, did you consider those average (good) and above-average (very good) nins? Even in the real world, there’s a lot of them.

Of course I did, but in Naruto, very little is heard about them. Same in the real world, we're more interested in the best of the best.

Anyway, don't blame me for thinking small percentages. Since very early in the manga, there was an emphasis on how difficult it was to be a shinobi.

There are rankings. Sasuke was top of the class. Naruto was worst of the class. That's how it's done in real Japanese schools.

Also over here. The licensure exams - it's always the top of the heap who are praised and numbers/ranks are assigned.

It's difficult but that's the way it goes. I try to be as realistic as possible in my views.

When I said I forgot his name, I was referring to the post where I named Shika, Shino, Ino, the sand nins etc… then, I didn’t remember Kiba’s name. I only remembered him at the post where I name him. Those were different posts if you recall.

Hmm... okay, but if you had remembered his name then, I wouldn't say anything about him having BL techniques.

When I say BL that’s what I mean advanced BL. Nowhere in the manga does it differentiate the two. In the manga, when BL is mentioned, its automatically advanced BL. That’s what I mean too. So, if that’s the case, then their techniques are still clannish, not BL, even if only those blood-related can use the technique.

Err... I don't know why you have to differentiate clannish from bloodlines.

Clan means family means bloodlines.

Advanced BL simply means the clan or family is older (have been promoting their BLs for a longer time) OR their techniques are simply better or more useful.

This however doesn't mean that the current ABLs will not be overtaken by other clans.

Sooner or later, I would expect Shikamaru's clan (for example) to be marked as ABL. This is especially since he has already shown how useful his family's technique can be even though it's put down a lot.

Shino's too is a very useful technique. It's just so creepy... ^^;; He'll have trouble dating a girl.

Ino cannot use her mind technique if she isn’t physically connected to her target. Remember her fight with Sakura? She used her hair on the floor as the connection. For Shino: the bugs stay on his body for food (chakra) and as payback they obey. Chou: uses food to have more chakra. Shika: uses shadow, no shadow, no technique. Those are still external tools. For Kiba, its obvious.

(shakes head) What you said about Ino is not correct. During the Chuunin written exam, she wasn't physically connected to Sakura. Neither was she physically connected to that Sound Nin in the Forbidden Forest. Besides, the reason why she put her hair there wasn't for mental connection. Her hair was to keep Sakura from moving around.

Her dad also didn't need to physically connect himself in order to use that technique.

For Shino - it's not only his body and chakra, his clan has an understanding with those little critters. If it was anyone else, those bugs will kill em. Anyway, it's his body and chakra. It's very inherent.

Chou - of course he needs food. He needs energy. Uchiha and Hyuuga have to eat too. And those techniques of Chou's require his family's trademark very thick and rubber-like skin. It's his body which makes those techniques possible.

Let's see other nins do what his family does, eh?

Shikamaru - the shadow is part of him. Anyway, it is written in a character book that those Shadow techniques are exclusive to the Nara clan.

It's such a useful technique too. If it can be learned by anyone with a shadow, it would be as commonly used as Kage Bunshin.

For those with BL: Neji/Hinata: byakugan (eyes); Sasuke: sharingan (eyes); Kimimaro: bones. All internal. For Haku, we didn’t see any physical aspect that changed while he used his technique as he is masked and we can virtually see no flesh.

Again. Ino - mind. Straight unobstructed line to victim (note, Sharingan users need to see eye to eye with their enemies too)

Chou - body. It's his body that's important. Not food. This is a very weak argument. Everyone ninja eats.

Shino - body, chakra. Still it's inherent. You can't expect someone outside of his clan to have insects inside his body. But I will give way somewhat on this. Shino's technique is somewhat like Kiba's but it is a LOT more intimate and dangerous.

Shikamaru - shadow. It's part of him. It's his shadow. And if you still want to argue about this, I will show you where it says that only the Nara clan can use Shadow techniques.

#1They can still be exterminated. In any village, BL clans are a minority. They are still outnumbered even if their BL is activated.

In that case, is it so difficult to believe, that in a clan as well, only a minority can do their BLs?

Of course not. There is only 1 theory we disagree on. That’s on Itachi killing his clan. The others, BL clans and forbidden techniques, its in the manga. I stick to what the manga says. These are no longer theories, mine are manga fact.

That's not a theory we disagreed on. Note: You disagreed on Itachi being able to kill off his clan. You're going against canon fact. You kept saying it made no sense.

I, on the other hand, have been trying to make it more plausible for you to see how Itachi could have in fact and not so incredibly kill off his clan.

You haven't been sticking to the manga. You say you do but you have wrote contradictory statements. I don't why you say that Ino has to be physically connected to her enemy. Another thing. You kept saying that Kage Bunshin is forbidden eventhough it's been used again and again and again by main good guy characters.

You keep telling me to stick to manga fact. Do try to remember which of us has been posting *THEORY* warnings? Also, even if I am theorizing, my theories are based on manga and anime fact. Plus, you've been doing theorizing of your own.

Eh...

They are outnumbered.

So what? You've seen how Hinata's dad got rid of those enemy nins. And Haku's technique can also attack multiple enemies.

Anyway, Uchiha and Haku's clans were wiped out. That's canon fact. To make it more plausible that such powerful clans were wiped out, you may have to consider that in those powerful clans, there were actually only a few individuals who can use their ABLs.

If you increase the number of ABL users, the more silly/weird/unlikely/stupid it seems that such powerful clans were destroyed. This is your main problem with Itachi wiping out his clan, wasn't it? Only one versus many?

If I thought the same way you do - that there were many Sharingan users in Uchiha - I would also think it's weird that Itachi killed them all.

But I don't think how you think. For me, there were only a few Sharingan users in Uchiha.

What if it was made forbidden not so long ago then? It would explain why only Jounins know it or why it’s a Jounin level technique.

Err... you're stubborn. Even Vanceloma pointed out that the Third used Kage Bunshin.

Anyway, your theory is unlikely because Kage Bunshin was written on the first page or on the first part of that Forbidden Scroll Naruto stole.

Remember, he said that he had only time to learn one technique before Iruka found him?

That means that technique was around a long long time. It's likely to be one of the earliest techniques ever devised.

Again, I stand my theory that what was written in the scroll wasn't ordinary Kage Bunshin. It's more likely what was written was the forbidden extreme version of Kage Bunshin.

It would also nicely explain why Naruto conjured up hundreds? thousands? of clones to beat up Mizuki.

Its like asking: Why did the 3rd let Oro go? I don’t know. Its just that they have forbidden techniques, but they don’t sanction the nins who use them. It seems that the scroll contains the secrets to these forbidden techniques and the leaders of the Leaf prevented new nins from learning them. Once learned, you cant unlearn them. I think that’s what forbidden mean to them. Forbidden to learn, okay to use. Hehehe

? You're side-tracking. Kinoha definitely sanction nins who learn techniques that require killing fellow nins needlessly.

That headband they wear --- with the symbols. If there is a slash across it, that means that nin is an outcast and prime target for Hunter Nins.

Itachi's headband has a slash across it. And Magenkyou is definitely a forbidden (no leniency) technique in Kinoha. If you know it, that means you killed someone very dear to you. Someone like that will not be tolerated in Kinoha.

Besides, Sandaime was supposed to kill Orochimaru. It was already decided that Orochimaru had to be killed. Enma, the Monkey King, reprimanded Sandaime for not killing Orochimaru when he had the chance.

The reason why Sandaime let Orochimaru go was that at that time he didn't have the strength or the will to kill his student. He regretted this decision.

I didn’t say your theories are wrong. I’m still not satisfied. Satisfaction is the key here. In the manga, the mangenkyou was introduced – that should explain why Itachi is very powerful along with him being already an excellent nin. But he killed his clan using taijutsu. Shouldn’t that be suspect?

To be honest, for me, no. For you, it will be problematic because a lot of what you think (your ideas, assumptions, theories, etc.) about Naruto goes against what happened in the story.

That's really not my problem, and if I had known that you already have your own ideas about it - I wouldn't have posted my theory. I posted becaused you asked why.

Ok, so you already said what you wanted to say. Your theories are not just yours and my questions are not just mine. Many agree with you, but a lot of people are also unsatisfied like me. We don’t have to convince each other or satisfy each other. When I say I’m not satisfied, that should give you a clue that that theory doesn’t work for me. If its not resolved, you’re right, its my problem.

I already said from the start that even with the plot holes, I still enjoy Naruto. It still stands.

Heh. Again, give fair warning next time. Anyway, I'll know better next time.

[samokan]

apil apil ko ha

Again, I stand my theory that what was written in the scroll wasn't ordinary Kage Bunshin. It's more likely what was written was the forbidden extreme version of Kage Bunshin.

The scroll that naruto took from the 3rd contains advance technique both forbidden and not. The Kage Bunshin that was written there was the of the highest caliber, becasuse as the name suggest "Kage Bunshin" or Multiple Shadow replication, it does not create an ordinary clone without "life" but a Real it create a real body replication. That's why Neji encountered some difficulties fighting naruto when the latter used kage bunshin, because he can't distinguished which is real since all the replications are real. Basically the Kage Bunshin techiques are taught at the Chuunin Level to Jounin Level.

Also inside that scroll , the techique which was used by the fourth to seal the kyuubi's spirit and realesing it is there also, that is why the shinobis were alarmed when naruto took it ( but am sure u already know this fact )

ill post the rest later .. meeting sa kow

[yen]

Ah hah! Samokan, you did say Naruto was an overrated anime! Was a little confused before because you didn't specify which anime.

The anime, for me, is... I dunno... I like it lang gyud. I think nabag-uhan lang ko because so many other anime just isn't as good as their original manga version.

It's painful to follow a manga whose anime version is short-cutted.

By the way, Anbu and AnimeOne has split up on the Naruto project.

Next week's episode will be fun. It's not in the manga. Separate filler story. Of course, it had to be a Hot Springs episode.

[samokan]

i say naruto is an overrated anime, because there are still a lot more or better anime out there which were not given the same hype as Naruto.

For example , last exile ( dili tong member nganhi ha ) anime .. not everybody knows this especially in the philippines, but try asking any hard core anime fanatic and they will highly recommend this anime

But , it just a matter of taste and choice so enjoy everyone I don't think Naruto will be over anytime soon, i just hope that the anime won't be license in North America para Anbu won't stop its fansubbed

[yen]

According to what I heard, it will be AnimeOne who will continue subbing Naruto, not Anbu. So it will be AonE na, not Anbu.

Eh... heh... ^^;; Actually, I would worry if an anime is well-known in the Philippines. Usually, ma-well-known na if it's been dubbed in Tagalog.

I already have bias against dubs in English, my bias against Tagalog dubs is even worse.

[samokan]

AonE?? well there fansub is ok .. they also did the fansub of tenjou tenge

bitaw sakto gyud ka yen, pag ma-well known in the Philippines.. toinks tagalized version dayon. although i don't blame them, since most of the watchers of anime are kids, basin dili kaapas og basa sa subtitle hehehe

No manga for next week no ?? wahhh 226 grabe ka bitin