The Universe - is it Created? or by Chance?

[kenites]

suma gud unsa may inyong gibuhat diri sa forum? doing whatever it takes to disprove God.. and start labeling theists as ignorant..

OT napud:
Doing whatever it takes? Like what? I know nga you have a word war from one of the atheist here but ayaw lang pud i-generalize..it's between the two of you, so kamo nalang settle ana, kamo man pud kasayod asa na nagsugod..Para sa ako and I'm sure agree pud ka ani ug ang kadaghanan, what matters most after a heated argument is RESPECT..

Wala kaayo ko ga apil2x dire kay wala jud ko ikatubag aning question sa thread..lurker ra ko dire..but I think they're having a good discussion and exchange of ideas here..Keep it up!!

[necrotic freak]

^ ako pre... ignorante man sad ko... bahala na'g ignorante... bahala na'g tawgon ko nilang bogo... basta naa lang juy Ginoo...

mao na.. ug labaw pa sad jud naay bugnaw nga redhorse.

[necrotic freak]

OT napud:
Doing whatever it takes? Like what? I know nga you have a word war from one of the atheist here but ayaw lang pud i-generalize..it's between the two of you, so kamo nalang settle ana, kamo man pud kasayod asa na nagsugod..Para sa ako and I'm sure agree pud ka ani ug ang kadaghanan, what matters most after a heated argument is RESPECT..

Wala kaayo ko ga apil2x dire kay wala jud ko ikatubag aning question sa thread..lurker ra ko dire..but I think they're having a good discussion and exchange of ideas here..Keep it up!!

exactly.. respect lang gyud ta unta.. but CHANCEs are nakalimot na sila ana..

[kenites]

exactly.. respect lang gyud ta unta.. but CHANCEs are nakalimot na sila ana..

Then I hope this will remind them

[hitch22]

You still don't realize the difference of animals and humans?
Humans are RATIONAL. Chimps are IRRATIONAL.
Bisan pa ug "bright" kaayo na imong uncle chimp, maayo kaayo ug sign language, or mag-computer, it cannot be compared to the freewill of an uneducated kid.
Chimps run on instinct. You teach them new tricks, give them food. They learn new tricks.
Humans run on freewill. You teach them new tricks, give them food. They learn new tricks, new ideas, become independent, and can even teach others.

See the difference?

I don't dispute about the difference between us and chimps. In pointing out the similarities, I meant to show why evolutionary biologists focus their attention on chimps and the great apes when studying their common descent with humans.

Get my point?

But I have to ask you this: What's your stance on the Theory of Evolution, particularly on Biological Evolution? You don't think humans and the great apes share common ancestry? Are you a creationist?

So what if after 100 years, no accepted naturalistic theory has still found?
Are you hoping that someday, science will SAVE you from what you believe?
I'm beginning to believe that atheism has becoming a religion also.

Save? Save from what? This is the only life, we believe, that we're ever going to have. Salvation is an idea from Theism, remember? You guys believe there's an after-life theme park, and everyone's going to show up as holographic images in a grand reunion. We don't. We believe that when we die, every part of our body goes back into nature. That's not entirely a bad thing. To quote Steve Jobs:

Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It's Life's change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new.

* That's taken from the commencement address he gave to Standford University graduates (click here to view his inspiring speech).

The difference between us is that I'm comfortable not getting an answer to the BIG QUESTIONS. You, on the other hand, somehow have to buy into one of the hundreds of supernatural vistas of the after-life and promises of salvation peddled by religions, in order to have those nagging BIG QUESTIONS answered. Just read what religions have to say about the origin of the universe (taken from Salman Rushdie's Letter to the Six Billionth Person - click here to read the whole letter):

This sky god, it's said, made the universe by churning its matter in a giant pot. Or he danced. Or he vomited creation out of himself. Or he simply called it into being and lo! It was. In some of the more interesting creation stories, the singly mighty sky god is subdivided into many lesser forces - junior dieties, avatars, gigantic metamorphic "ancestors" whose adventures create the landscape, or the whimsical, wanton, meddling, cruel pantheons of the great polytheisms, whose wild doings will convince you that the real engine of creation was lust; for infinite power, for too easily broken human bodies, for clouds of glory....

....As human knowledge has grown, it has also become plain that every religious story ever told about how we got here is quite simply wrong. This, finally, is what all religions have in common. They didn't get it right. There was no celestial churning, no maker's dance, no vomiting of galaxies, no snake or kangaroo ancestors, no Valhalla, no Olympus, no six-day conjuring trick followed by a day of rest. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

You want to believe in them? Well, that's your choice. But leave me out of it.

It's not a theistic alternative. That is what we believe all along.
That God created the universe out from nothing.
That God gave life to a lifeless universe.
That God gave intellect to a once primitive irrational creature.

Well, don't all religions say that? Magic, magic, magic. Case closed. No need to prove anything. Something cannot come from nothing, except God, therefore God exists. Everything has a cause, except God, therefore God exists. Don't you find the arguments rather curious? God's existence is already implied at the premise.

I've read that Immanuel Kant, perhaps the greatest German philosopher, provided one of the best refutations against every argument (cosmological, ontological, and teleological) for the existence of God in his book Critique of Pure Reason. It is said that the priests in Germany protested madly at this, that they revenged themselves by calling their dogs "Immanuel Kant". Needless to say, his book also ended up in the Vatican's Index of Prohibited Books. Kant should've realized that there's no prize for the winning arguments against the existence of God.

* I've only read Kant's bio, but I'm curious to read his Critique.

Science can explain things within our world. But not everything (grey areas I pressume?)
Of course, science will not state about a supernatural being since it is beyond its scope.

Wait. There are religious claims which science can test, in order to prove Divine Intervention. One is, God answers prayers. Science can do a double-blind test on this. Of course, we won't ask people to part the Red Sea...although that seemed doable a couple of thousand years ago. How about let's test those who claim they can heal the sick? You see, it is testable. And there's even an organization called the JREF in the US that's going to award $1 million to anyone who claims to have paranormal/supernatural ability and proves it. JREF was founded in the 70s, and to this date, no one has claimed the prize. Makes you wonder sometimes...but it would be wonderful if somebody does win it.

Theism makes claims like these. Deism, on the other hand, stops with God's existence. That's why I've said, to get from Deism to Theism, you still have a lot of work ahead of you. You have to prove that water can magically turn into wine, a virgin can give birth, a dead man can rise and walk again, and all those wonderful stories in that book.

[robert_papalid_ece]

humans are a gazillion-zillion steps above any other creature... is it hard to see? and mediocre similarities do not mean anything... no other animal can match the intelligence even to that of a 5-year old human... humans have even created robots/artificial intelligence that are better than that of certain animals... ASIMO's intelligence i believe is better than that of an ant or a spider...


we always listen to other people, the so-called scientists/doctors... and we forget to consult our own natural thinking... in my case... i am as well impressed with science... but i handpicked only those which are truly useful...

[schmuck]

humans are a gazillion-zillion steps above any other creature... is it hard to see? and mediocre similarities do not mean anything... no other animal can match the intelligence even to that of a 5-year old human... humans have even created robots/artificial intelligence that are better than that of certain animals... ASIMO's intelligence i believe is better than that of an ant or a spider...


we always listen to other people, the so-called scientists/doctors... and we forget to consult our own natural thinking... in my case... i am as well impressed with science... but i handpicked only those which are truly useful...

again, intelligence != evolutionary success

Please tell me where you based your thinking on.

[kenites]

The difference between us is that I'm comfortable not getting an answer to the BIG QUESTIONS. You, on the other hand, somehow have to buy into one of the hundreds of supernatural vistas of the after-life and promises of salvation peddled by religions, in order to have those nagging BIG QUESTIONS answered.

Bitaw..This is exactly my point, why should I try to answer question nga dili pa nako kaya tubagon..Why not leave it as it is? A Big Question.

[robert_papalid_ece]

@schmuck: just from my simple human reasoning...

as ive said... if human intelligence is just a product of "evolution"... nganong wala may bisag usa nga mananap man lang (buhi o patay) ang ni-evolve ang intelligence sa sama sa atua? bisa'g duol-duol lang unta sa atoang intelligence bah... and all creatures did undergo an evolution process... bisan mga unggoy... claimed to be the closest family sa tawo (correct me if im wrong)... layo man gihapon ang intelligence... as in layo jud... grabe kalayo...

hmmm... im thinking... do monkeys, birds, hippos, crocodiles, and giraffes also argue on where did they came from? nope... only humans do...

balik ta's question, asa man gikan ang universe?
[A] created by a Supreme Being who is beyond space and time (dimensions conceptualized by humans); OR
[B]CHANCE ra oi, TAGHAP ra ning tanan, CHAMBA ra jud

good night guys... God bless...

[Pein]

again, reading comprehension please.
Why would it need a cause if it always existed?

natural there should be a cause kay naa guy effect. just like sa energy, mukalit ra diay ug tunga ang energy kung walay hinungdan? natural naa jud. now, asa raman ang cause why the universe ni exist? na missing napud?