some ph-photo stories

[irangejuice]

Good points everyone. True it is cheap but when faced with difficult times or just scavenging for some dough to complete a project, I personally think nothing is too cheap. A job is a job and there is absolutely nothing to be mad about if someone took the 1k job.. heck with my inexperience I would've probably taken it just to gain experience. The Daza guy gets his 1k worth~I get my experience. Maybe next time, I can give him back some of what I learned for 2k.

It's not really the money i'm after anyway..heck I'd do a show for free or just tag along with whoever let's me!

These elitists tick me off. These are the people who only consider DSLRs as the real, serious, "professional" camera. WE amateurs have to remember though, ok ok, professional amateurs -- we have to remember that regardless of what they say or do can't do jack s**t to us. We can simply shrug off anything they throw at us! That's the best part about being an amateur. They can even go as low as to say my work is absolute crap and I still wouldn't give a flying f***..hey, i'm still learning aren't I?

I am fortunate enough to be spared the tremendous upkeep of a HUGE EGO for I R AMATEUR!

[pnoize]

what probably got to the members of the mailiing list's nerves was the fact that he was looking for someone experienced in covering events yet refuses to give a more considerable amount. but that still does not give them an excuse to berate Mr. Dasa, unless of course he started pushing the wrong buttons.

anyway, amateurs rock! I agree with Zerone_null, that we just have to shrug off anything they throw at us.

[abortretryfail]

Transportation expenses will be refund.

cool! I could have gotten 2,500 to fly to Manila and back

seriously... I agree with this guy... there are times you can't afford to be picky

...though that also means you shouldn't be stupid also

2,500 for a two day event is sometimes what I got when I started out

hey, it's just you and your camera... no need for lights or assistants

as you go along and get more experience then the higher paying jobs
will start coming to you...

I've gotten a lot of high rate clients because someone told them what
a great job I did on their project.

[tolstoi]

newbies/amateurs who use point&shoot cams are indeed laughing stock of the PROs

[pnoize]

newbies/amateurs who use point&shoot cams are indeed laughing stock of the PROs

actually, this is a misnomer. i've seen wonderful shots using a P&S that would whoop some dSRL owners anytime.

but you don't bring a P&S to cover an event, unless your P&S has some advance features.

[anakin]

Exactly, Pnoize2k6. Some members there has a 10k and up asking price,
then came Mr. Dasa, apparenlty unaware of these PRO members, looking
for a cheap service. Unfortunately, some members were quick to point & shoot
Mr. Dasa's "cheap offer". From then on there was chaos in ph-photo until
the owner stepped in and moderated few guys in the mailing list.
For me, I would say that Mr. Dasa has a fair share why things went overboard.

Adjong, I dunno why you were moderated ( you shouldn't be ) but I guess
your comment came in late. The owner mentioned that no more
further discussion to be made with regards to Mr. Dasa's provocative offer.

what probably got to the members of the mailiing list's nerves was the fact that he was looking for someone experienced in covering events yet refuses to give a more considerable amount. but that still does not give them an excuse to berate Mr. Dasa, unless of course he started pushing the wrong buttons.

anyway, amateurs rock! I agree with Zerone_null, that we just have to shrug off anything they throw at us.

[adjong]

this are parts from "the plan"
it is a long read and althought it has a lot of good in it, there is always a fishy part hidden from public view.
i'll post my comments on monday.
note the word "licensure"

got this from todays mail:


I don't know if you address that question to me? In case it is for me, my
reply is Yes it does make sense.

Crack the whip and keep it going guys. Sana isunod ninyo naman ay
Apprenticeship Programs for Photographers.

Then licensure na.

Thanks. Another two cents.




Sharing a position paper regarding coming up with a rate guide for
the photography industry. This was born out of a discussion among
members of "the Zoo" - a group of over 40 professional photographers
who are involved in editorial and advertising photography. Meetings
have begun toward this goal.

TOWARDS A RATE GUIDE FOR THE PHILIPPINE PHOTOGRAPHY INDUSTRY

The absence of a standard rate guide for photography
services has been a constant dilemma for Philippine photographers.
In recent years, as camera manufacturers have been making
professional level digital cameras more and more affordable, the
number of people entering professional photography has also been on
the increase. As a result, with new photographers lacking any
reference point for pricing, industry prices have been spiraling
downward to the detriment of all who make their living from
photography.

Even many established photographers sometimes find
themselves at a loss when determining how much to charge for a
particular job. Fearing that we are charging way too low, or that we
are charging too high that we might lose the project, sometimes
causes us stress and leads us to seek advice from fellow
photographers. Unfortunately, many of those we seek advice from are
also quite uncertain if their own pricing scheme is right. Confusion
is even heightened when we seek advice from two or more
photographers and discover that all have pricing schemes so
different from one another.

Imagine then the situation of new photographers eager to
enter the industry. With no reference to look to for pricing, they
resort to pricing themselves so low. This causes a devastating
effect on the photography industry in general as it increasingly
erodes the market value of our services and, with it, the respect
for the profession as well. To a large extent, these new
photographers can't be blamed because there is no existing guide to
base their prices on.

Let me point out a few real life examples. February 2005, a
client was asking for a quotation for a catalogue shoot for 200
products. All shots were to be done on simple white background and
were estimated to be completed within 3 days. Due to the volume of
work, quotes were entering in the range of P500-P1500 per product.
Lowest quote totaled P100,000.00. Client was trying to negotiate as
it was only willing to pay P70,000 for the whole project. All of a
sudden, a new photographer won the bid as he charged an unbelievable
P2,000 per pay. Imagine, the client who was willing to pay P70,000
got away with paying only P6,000 for the whole project. If only that
photographer knew better. As a result, in the eyes of that client,
P2,000 a day is what photography is worth!

Summer 2004, a particular publication had a special project.
Portraits of 20 people needed to be done within two days in the same
location. The publication pegged the rate at P2,500 per layout which
amounted to P50,000 for the whole project – a huge amount by local
standards for editorial photography. Two days before the project, I
was informed that I was being replaced as a new photographer offered
to do the project at a rate of P1,250 only. I figured that at
P25,000 for the project, it would still be a good rate based on our
low editorial rates. Unfortunately, I found out that the
photographer did not charge P1,250 per layout but charged P1,250 per
day! The publication got their requirement done at ten percent the
amount they were willing to pay. Horrified at this I talked to the
photographer and found out that he had no idea how much to charge
nor how much the magazine was willing to pay. He had recently quit
his P400 a day job and decided to do photography professionally. At
P1,250 a day doing photography, he thought he was doing well.

The stories of woe from photographers are plentiful
nowadays. Competition has been getting more numerous with prices
getting lower. It is high time that a rate guide for the Philippine
photography industry be developed to safeguard photography as a
viable profession.

PROPOSAL

A Philippine Photographer's Rate Guide could be a solution
to help standardize and control the industry rates for professional
photography services. Such a Rate Guide could be made universally
accessible via a web page on the internet and would serve as a
reference point not only for photographers but even for all clients
when there is a need to determine pricing for professional
photography requirements.

Objectives
1. Protect the photography industry by providing a reference
guide for photographers with regards to pricing for various
photographic services.
2. Protects the photography industry by informing photographers
of their rights and other industry practices.
3. Protects the photography industry by providing information
regarding industry rates, practices, and photographer's rights to
clients in need of various photography requirements.

Form

Imagine a website housing the Philippine Photographer's Rate
Guide. When a photographer has a particular assignment and is
uncertain on how to price it, he can visit the site and search the
category of the type of photography service he is to render. He can
then find ranges of prices he can charge depending on the type of
photography and its intended usage. So if he is doing product
photography for press release purposes, he can find the suggested
industry prices for such a service. If he is doing food photography
to be used for a billboard, he will likewise find a specific pricing
for this service.

Since experience and specialization play a big factor in
determining pricing, we will set price ranges in 3 tiers – low,
medium, and high. It will be up to each photographer to determine
what price range he fits in based on his expertise and experience.
For example, a new photographer would most likely base his prices on
the `low' ranges as he still gains experience and develops his
skills. A veteran fashion photographer might peg his rates at
the `high' range but might opt to peg his price at the `middle'
range if asked to do food photography which he is not as adept at.

Since various ways of pricing such as per layout/set-up, per
hour, and per day are schemes often used, we hope to come up with a
rate guide addressing all these categories.

On the same site, we hope to have information regarding
photographer's rights, ways to protect and enforce these rights, and
other information on industry practices. Hopefully, other guides or
tips which can help photographer's professionalize their craft would
also be on the site.

Method

How to come up with the proposed rate guides is the big
question. Some form of survey among the practicing professional
photographers will be necessary to come up with generally acceptable
categories and rates. Definitely a monumental task, but it is one
that is necessary. We are definitely open for suggestions and open
for membership for a working committee to put this to task.

Frequently Asked Questions:

1. Is the rate guide supposed to be a rule that should be
followed by all photographers? – No, it is meant to be a guide based
on present industry conditions. With the absence of a truly industry
wide association, and with the constant influx of new photographers,
there is no mechanism to make it a mandatory rule to be followed.
The best it can be is a reference for photographers to base their
pricing on that they may achieve fair compensation for their work
and at the same time protect the industry.

2. How will this stop photographers from under pricing? – It
won't, but it can at least discourage and limit it. Reality is that
some photographers are put into situations wherein they sometimes
have to under price for economic reasons. The rate guide gives not
only a standard reference but also an aspiration that many
photographers may wish to target. Thus, if a photographer chooses to
under price, the rate guide will encourage him to not stray too far
from the standards. For example: if a photographer is quoting for a
particular job and he discovers that the minimum industry rate is
P10,000, if he does choose to under price, he might opt to quote
P8,000 instead. Without a rate guide, he might have quoted a low
P2,000. Knowing that the going rate is P10,000, most people would
aspire to come as close to that as possible and may even feel
cheated if they went too much lower. Photographers may be emboldened
thinking if other photographers get paid at those rates, why does he
deserve any less?

3. How can this help photographers convince their clients that
the prices they quote are reasonable? – So often, many photographers
hear from clients that the prices they quoted are way too expensive,
yet the photographer has already bent over backwards giving them
really low rates. Aside from wanting to get the lowest rate
possible, there are two basic reasons that this happens: because
clients have no idea of what photography industry rates are and
because they have encountered other photographers that have charged
lower rates. The rate guide, being accessible on the internet
becomes an excellent information dissemination tool which
photographers can point out to clients. For example: a client tells
a photographer that his rate of P10,000 for a particular project is
way too high. The photographer checked that industry rates range
from P10,000-20,000 for that particular job and he has already opted
to charge the lowest rate. He can now argue with confidence that he
is giving the client the lowest rate possible. He can further
punctuate his stand by having the client check the industry price
range at the rate guide web site. This then serves to inform the
client of present industry rates and could help condition him to
accept the fair rate. The presence of this guide may also be helpful
in another way. Let's say the client still wants to get a lower rate
and tries contacting another photographer. Chances are, this other
photographer will refer to the same rate guide and quote within the
same range. This will aid to further convince the client to accept
the proposed rates.

4. How will this prevent new photographers from pricing too
low? – Many new photographers are faced with the dilemma of not
knowing how much the value of photography services are. By making
the rate guide web site an industry wide standard, we hope that all
new photographers will look to it as a reference for pricing. Most
of these new photographers will aspire for the high rates and will
most likely try to quote within the price range or as close to it as
possible. One main benefit of the rate guide is to arm photographers
with the confidence to quote the rates they deserve.

5. How about dealing with clients that are economically
challenged? – We will sometimes come across clients that cannot
afford the standard rates. There might be non-profit organizations,
very small businesses, or other individuals or establishments that
we know may not be able to afford standard rates. The rate guide
still serves its purpose as a peg for photographers to base their
prices on. Hopefully, one of the low ranges of one of the schemes
(per hour, per day, per layout, etc) will be acceptable. If the
photographer finds out that even these rates are too high for that
particular client, he can give concessions out of his own generosity
but should emphasize the going industry rate that he should have
charged. That way, we can still promote the industry rates and
maintain the respect for photography as a service of value.
6. Why do we need to have different price ranges? – Not all
photographers are of equal experience and expertise. Not all clients
have the same requirements in terms of quality and budget. Some
clients may need very high quality images made with proficient
technical skill and superb creative execution. Many others have very
basic photography requirements that even new professional
photographers can easily handle. It becomes essential to have a wide
range of price schemes and ranges to meet the various needs of the
market.

7. How do I determine which price range I would fall under? –
There will be 3 basic price ranges: low, middle, and high. Only the
photographer himself can determine which price range he can charge
depending on his level of experience and expertise. The photographer
must be sensitive in the general client reaction to his practice. If
he finds that he is more and more sought after for the quality of
his work or his particular expertise, then this can be an indication
that he could opt for a higher price range. A photographer may also
vary his price range depending on his particular expertise. For
example: a renowned portrait photographer, who might be able to
fetch the highest prices for portrait jobs, might opt to take a low
or medium price range if pricing for a jewelry photography job that
he is not as experienced or adept in.

[irangejuice]

An absurd idea--a greedy one at that too. How do you put a standardized price on art? They forget that it's not only a job but an art as well. Do I smell a faint smell of rights being violated here? Last time I checked this country allowed me to put any value on any piece of art I had for sale as long as no act of deceiving was done in my part. The consumer also had the right to choose, which naturally, would be one that perfectly balance of quality and affordability based on their preferences.

BEHIND THE FACADE OF COMPLICATED, BEAT-AROUND-THE-BUSH, DECEIVING WORDS:

TOWARDS A RATE GUIDE FOR THE PHILIPPINE PHOTOGRAPHY INDUSTRY = HOW WE WILL CORNER THE PHOTOGRAPHY MARKET





The absence of a standard rate guide for photography
services has been a constant dilemma for Philippine photographers.
In recent years, as camera manufacturers have been making
professional level digital cameras more and more affordable, the
number of people entering professional photography has also been on
the increase. As a result, with new photographers lacking any
reference point for pricing, industry prices have been spiraling
downward to the detriment of all who make their living from
photography.

We have a problem because we spent and spend a lot on
photography while others are getting a good deal from their so-so setups.
We can't compete with the new photographers who charge less.

We failed to understand that these people are making a living also.

Even many established photographers sometimes find
themselves at a loss when determining how much to charge for a
particular job. Fearing that we are charging way too low, or that we
are charging too high that we might lose the project, sometimes
causes us stress and leads us to seek advice from fellow
photographers. Unfortunately, many of those we seek
advice from are also quite uncertain if their own pricing scheme is right.
Confusionis even heightened when we seek advice from two or more
photographers and discover that all have pricing schemes so
different from one another.

We are unaware that it is the same case with all other self-employed
professional services as well as small and micro businesses.

I'm seeking advice instead of seeking the right balance that I will set for
myself. Selling art is difficult as beauty is and will always will be in the eyes of the
beholder~both customer's and photographer's. Ultimately though, it is the
customer's eye that gauges the final pricing and it's the artist's pride that will
stamp the seal on the deal.

Imagine then the situation of new photographers eager to
enter the industry. With no reference to look to for pricing, they
resort to pricing themselves so low.
This causes a devastating
effect on the photography industry in general as it increasingly
erodes the market value of our services and, with it, the respect
for the profession as well. To a large extent, these new
photographers can't be blamed because there is no existing
guide to base their prices on.



New photographers look for jobs and then look for money. They are
willing to earn less to gain the experience they need to improve and be able to
charge more in the future. Their upkeep is lower which means they can go on
for less.
As devastating as it may be, it is what we call open competition offered
by the free market which came with our freedom. Capitalism


Not only a large extent but these new photographers can't be blamed
at all. A guide will force beginners to price their services in the same level as seasoned
veterans but not the other way around. Isn't a guide supposed to even out the
playing field? Who will pay the same amount to a Joe Nobody when they could get a
more publicized name like Mike Excellent?

[darkwing]

lisod kaayo i regulate basta art, sakto gyud si zerone, naa ra gyud na sa choice sa customer, art is not like a commodity like electricity...

[abortretryfail]

actually there is a rate guide for photographers in the states... but the guide is more for publications... newspaper and magazine editorials mostly.Â* it's a guide to protect the photographers from being exploited by the media by paying low rates because the photographers are getting "exposure"... like a certain local magazine.

can't find the site for that guide but here's one for British photographers...

Â* Â* Â*http://media.gn.apc.org/feesguide/photo.html

sure, we could come up with a price guide... it would have to be very detailed... rates determined by type of assignment, use of photos, length of assignment, equipment used, minimal wage rates,Â* experience of photographer... etc... but that would probably be useful only for mere everyday assignments... those requiring minimal skill and hardly any talent... TALENT!!!Â* there's the word!

but how would you put a price tag on talent?Â* the problem is there are alot of photographers now who are not artist... they're businessmen.Â* they place a pricetag on their work by how much their photography gear is worth.Â* of course there is some truth to that... why pay the same amount for someone using just a dslr and flash and someone with a dslr, a bag full of lenses, and 8 600watt studio lights?Â* but if a company is asking for someone to cover a business confrence or shoot some products... how simple could those assignments be?Â* that would be something easily accomplished by both of them so therefore creating some sort of "equal oppurtunity"

but now what if a company wanted to revamp their ad campaign?Â* ...a revolutionary campaign designed to help them get a bigger bite out of the market share?Â* they wouldn't hire a kid with an entry-level dslr, a kit lens, and a couple of generic lights... but then they wouldn't hire a high rate photographer with 2 medium format cams, 22 megapixel digital backs, high quality glass, and a big studio full of lights but gave out average quality work.

but what if the kid with just an entry-level dslr had a reputation for creating pictures that just make you say, "WOW!!!"Â* then they'd probably pay a load of cash to just get the kid's attention!

there's one question I have to ask... and may probably get burned for this... why are these professional photographers making a big fuss about an event coverage?Â* if they really were "good" wouldn't they be too busy shooting projects for high-end clients to worry so much about getting a simple assignment?

if you lost a client to someone who charges lower... it might be a waste of time getting that client back. but if the cheaper photographer does a lousy job and the client wants you to shoot for them again... then go ahead and stick with your usual rate. or if they really want you back that bad... charge them higher!

supply and demand, friend :mrgreen: