Kinsa jud imo gituohan kung diin jud tah gikan, ang Bible or Science?

[bungot25]

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ah ok i get your point..
I thought man gud nga this is what you mean:
If you have reason you also have faith..
This is what you mean diay:
You have faith because you have reason..sakto ba ko?
Pero di ba faith is the absence of reason and rationale?

whats your point then

[hitch22]

I assume that people who say they have faith and that they believe in a deity are Theists, and not Deists.

If you are arguing from a Deist position, claiming that there is a First Cause or a Prime Mover, I cannot disprove that and I think science is still grappling at the lower slopes on the question about the origins of the universe. Therefore there is only little room to debate with Deists. But I would go further and say that the laws of nature that have been established thus far seems to be operating without the assumption of Divine intervention...as perhaps a Deist would agree (since a Deist himself wouldn't believe in Divine intervention).

I echo what the 18th century French astronomer Pierre-Simon Laplace said when asked by Napoleon about the role of God in his discourse on the secular variations of the orbits of Saturn and Jupiter. Here's how the conversation went:

Napoleon: "Comment, vous faites tout le système du monde, vous donnez les lois de toute la création et dans tout votre livre vous ne parlez pas une seule fois de l'existence de Dieu !"
Translation: "How can this be! You made the system of the world, you explain the laws of all creation, but in all your book you speak not once of the existence of God!"

Laplace: "[Sire,] je n'ai pas eu besoin de cette hypothèse."
Translation: "I did not need to make such an assumption."

For people who claim to have faith, we just ask that YOU GUYS FLY UNDER THE FLAG OF THEISM. Don't fly under the Deist flag, which Theists consider to be a blasphemous position.

[bungot25]

your somewhat suspicious to your claims...im only asserting to faith and reason which is not fanatical but true faith..lagpas ra kaayo nang deist mentality....

[kenites]

whats your point then

Aw di diay klaro..
Simple ra ako pasabot..
You can't reconcile faith and reason
because faith is a belief that must be held without reason and evidence..

Ikaw bro how do you define faith diay?

[cplusplus]

ill go for science

[hitch22]

Why do you think Kierkegaard calls it a "leap of faith" when he talked about how one can accept Christianity despite the paradoxes and the absence of evidence?

It's a rather "charming" change of tact that Theists have adopted nowadays. They're now talking about evidence and reason to back up faith, where not so long ago they've been burning people alive for having a difference of opinion, burning libraries and books, and banning all sorts of literature (which they still do today...like taking childish offense over Harry Potter movies or The Golden Compass).

Just a digression, since we're talking about books banned by the Catholic Church. Did you know that, on Dec. 22, 2005, the Vatican opened up to German historians the secret records associated with the Catholic Church's former Index of Prohibited Books (INDEX LIBRORVM PROHIBITORVM), revealing that well-loved books of the 19th century nearly came under bans. The Index was a list of books considered dangerous to the faith or morals of Catholics. It will probably surprise you that Victor Hugo's Les Misérables got into this list whereas Hitler's hate-filled book, 'Mein Kampf', didn't.

Check out the tabulated list of the 1948 edition of the Index. It is a very long list, and it's not even the complete list.

If faith is supported by evidence and reason, you don't need priests, Popes, rabid, red-faced, Bible-thumping preachers to reinforce that faith every Sunday.

Faith is a leap. There's a chasm you need to cross to accept tenets that are simply not supported by science or reason. Let me refresh your memory if you've forgotten what these tenets are. Remember the Apostle's Creed?

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

YOU, AS A BELIEVER, HAVE TO BELIEVE EVERY WORD IN THAT CREED. Otherwise, you cannot call yourself a Catholic. I think the Protestants don't believe in the Catholic Church or that the Virgin Mary should be God's middleman or that the saints should be persuaded to put in a good word for you in heaven. The Creed is an article of faith. That cannot be supported by reason or science. That is why you have to make that LEAP.

[kenites]

@hitch22-- bro you never ceases to amaze me

[bungot25]

@HITCH...
faith and reason is possible to some people...but most theologian holds that its possible....

[hitch22]

@kenites: I'm just backstopping your arguments...anything to help a brother in the skeptic's circle.

@bungot25: You have to define what this Faith is that is supported by reason or science, especially in the context of the following claims: Virgin birth, Resurrection, after-life theme parks called Heaven and Hell, God having a son, etc. You can support that with reason or science? No you don't. Like I said, you have to make that leap of faith.

[FAQ]

OT:



Ezio doing the "Leap of Faith" in Assassins Creed II.