Learning Bisaya

[Sol_Itaire]

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^remember, fife, that we are speakers of other languages too. English is not our first language and we learned it just the way you are learning (or tying to learn) cebuano. many of us here learned spanish, french, japanese, chinese, etc. as elective courses. I studied french, and my books didn't focus on grammar but on patterns.

i cannot emphasize enough--real language first before grammar! if you are frustrated at learning cebuano, it's because you are too focused on grammar.

RE teksa

we know it's awkward because we know the context. do you actually know what 'tawaga na siya og 'mommy' mean? can you imagine the context?

Is Call me 'Mommy' similar to Write me 'Mommy'?

If cebuano was really that impossible to learn, then i wonder how Seventh-Day-Adventist missionaries get to speak it fluently.

[ssssarzzz]

wow... i never realized how complicated it is to learn cebuano...

[fife222]

^remember, fife, that we are speakers of other languages too. English is not our first language and we learned it just the way you are learning (or tying to learn) cebuano. many of us here learned spanish, french, japanese, chinese, etc. as elective courses. I studied french, and my books didn't focus on grammar but on patterns.

What do you mean though? Specifically WHAT do you mean when you refer to what your books focused on as being "patterns" as opposed to "grammar". Please give me some solid examples. I am knowledgeable of grammars of Spanish, French, Japanese, AND Chinese so please list these so-called "patterns" that are separate from "grammar" that your books focus on. And for that matter, you said that you are learning Korean which is my heritage language. Why don't you start there...?

i cannot emphasize enough--real language first before grammar! if you are frustrated at learning cebuano, it's because you are too focused on grammar.

This statement makes absolutely no sense to me. How on earth am I supposed to learn Cebuano if I don't focus on grammar? As an adult learner of a language that I am not surrounded by everyday I am supposed to absorb the language like osmosis? When I read that, to me it seems like you are saying just start writing, speaking Cebuano in any manner with total disregard to mood, aspect, etc etc. Would you approach your Korean studies like that? Some people can but as far as I know usually children learn best when it comes to simply imitating and repeating. Adults usually need more explanation because our brains are more complex.

RE teksa

we know it's awkward because we know the context. do you actually know what 'tawaga na siya og 'mommy' mean? can you imagine the context?

Is Call me 'Mommy' similar to Write me 'Mommy'?

But your response STILL does NOT answer my question. What you are saying basically means "I just know it because I'm a native" and that does not answer my question at all. Now you see what I mean? Now, I'm not saying it is your fault because as far as I know you are not a teacher or a professor. And because of that you can not simply state that "I know it's true because I know the context" That holds no weight. I will give you examples for two languages that I think you know, English and Korean:

1. English
'to speak' <- There is absolutely no question about how to conjugate this verb. If you look in an authoritative English dictionary (like Webster) then you will know without a doubt that 'to speak' is conjugated -> speak, speaks, spoke, speaking, spoken

You will never EVER have to ask yourself, can I say 'I spoked to my brother yesterday'. You know why?? Because that is not listed in the dictionary thus it is NOT a possible conjugation of the verb 'to speak' You see? No confusion, just solid grammar rules that filipino language lack.

2. Korean
In this regard, Korean is even easier than English. Let's look at the 'present tense' polite form. I put this in quotes because Korean doesn't really have tense like we think of it in English, I don't believe but anyway. So the present tense polite form is formed by adding ㅂ니다/습니다 to the verb depending on the ending. ㅂ니다 for vowel ending verbs and 습니다 for consonant ending verbs. You see? Very clear, no confusion. You'll never have to fret about which form to use. If you have the verb 찾다 (to find) then you simply add 습니다 NOT ㅂ니다 sinceㅈ is consonant.

But for Cebuano, I look in my dictionary and find the meaning of the verb 'to start' which is 'sugod'. I conjugate 'sugod' as 'mosugod ako' but you tell me that my conjugation is incorrect and the correct conjugation is 'magsugod ako/magsugod ko'. So, I ask you how do you know this and all you can say is "I know the context". Of course, you know the context, you are a native speaker. But how does your explanation really help me? It doesn't. And the reason why it doesn't is because you are not listing any rules. And that is because either you don't know the rules or there are none. I am leaning towards the first option but it's not only you though. I think probably NO teachers know the rules. What if I conjugate every single verb I see with the affix 'mo-' only?? I will be wrong of course but who can prove me wrong? Based on our conversation here, not you or anyone here can. I hope you understand what I'm saying now, it should be very clear.

If cebuano was really that impossible to learn, then i wonder how Seventh-Day-Adventist missionaries get to speak it fluently.

I never said the language was impossible to learn. My source of hatred is directed at the LACK of knowledge among all Filipinos that I have spoken with regarding their verb system. I think I know English grammar fairly well and I know Korean grammar even better so this is not a problem that plagues me. You ask me a question about the grammar of Korean OR English and I will most likely give you a solid answer that I can back up. And by back up I mean that I can pull out a book or show you in an online dictionary that what I'm stating is fact. I would not say I just know it is correct because I am a native speaker. I have proof to back up my claims/teachings. That is what I want to hear from you but you just keep basically saying you just know it. Which tells me that it is actually the complete opposite. You don't know the language's grammar. Now, we can go back and forth over this all day but I have asked before and I still don't have a solid answer so I will ask you again. Give me just one grammar rule regarding Bisaya verbs or even Tagalog? Just one that's it. Can you do it? I have given you TWO examples of languages you have knowledge of. Just write one rule. What you should be telling me is something like 'to start' 'sugod' is conjugated with 'mag-' and NOT 'mo-' because of ___ and ___ <- (grammar rule) and etc etc. I would like to see specific non-refutable grammar rules just like the two I provided you if you can do it.

And regarding the missionaries learning languages such as Cebuano, you do realize that the missionaries that you refer to who actually speak the language fluently live in their target country for one or two years? If that has to be fulfilled JUST to be able to understand the language how slight then to me that makes learning the language pretty damn hard. That would be equivalent to learning obscure lesser known languages in remote areas that no-one has ever heard of before.

wow... i never realized how complicated it is to learn cebuano...

Yes it is but Please be very clear on what complicates the acquisition of Bisaya. Which is precisely the lack of information regarding the verbal structure of the language. The language itself is not hard at all by any means. It only classifies as a Category II language according to the Foreign Service Institute so not a hard language in the least.

I'm not sure why I keep writing about this when I have not been able to show one single pilipino what i'm talking about since I started learning tagalog over 4 years ago. I guess I am hopeful that one day the pilipino linguist that actually understands the verbal structure will show up and clear up this madness once and for all....

[SaywatUwant]

Sa cebuano ang usa(one) mo sakay sa jeep mo bayad pa gyud.
Sa tagalog ang usa(deer) bawal sa jeep kay ma mokong.

buto in cebuano is explosion,in tagalog seed,in Ilonggo chicks that newly hatch.

[fife222]

I know you don't know bisaya yet coz you still consult your dictionary.

As you clearly pointed out, I don't know Bisaya yet. But while you are trying to think of just ONE grammar rule regarding matching Bisaya verb with affixes, I will say that I do, in fact, know some grammar rules that are irrefutable. (from what I've been told) But I have NOT posted them here yet only because I want to see if anyone knows this already. I'm only a student and I have some grammar rules, so I am very curious to see if you or anyone else for that matter can provide some grammar rules to supplement mine since you all supposedly know the language so well.... hehe

[Genocide]

hehehe! ako expert kog binisaya na wrong grammar. hahaha!

[Sol_Itaire]

@TS: I am not impressed with armchair knowledge of languages. You go ahead learning your languages that way, but I'm not, and will never advise this to my students.

cheers!

[jheadz]

haha lingaw ko basa bisaya ug english agi rako

[Dark]

all i could say is learn the language 1st on how we learned it...

but not how you want to learn it...

after that... you can understand on what SOL is pointing out...

we may not understand what you are pointing out TS...

but i assure you learn the language the way we do it...
and you know what comes next to what ever purpose you have!

peace out...

[fife222]

@TS: I am not impressed with armchair knowledge of languages.

Honestly, I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't understand your logic. You are obviously a good teacher here on the forums in the respect that you know how to translate your language as you have proven time and time again with your great translations of my journal entries but that is not my point. I have simply requested you to provide me with one additional example of a grammar rule but have not. Next, you state that you're not impressed with my "armchair knowledge" of languages. So, obviously you are referring to English and Korean. What have I said that implies that I have "armchair knowledge" of those two languages? English is my native language as I presume Cebuano is the case with you. Korean is my near native language. So, based on that line of thinking then I would presume that your knowledge of Cebuano is also "armchair knowledge", right?

But anyway, as I stated before I posed this question, the issue at hand is a very complex one and I only inquired about it because you seem like a very good teacher based on your previous translations and explanations regarding my journal entries in Bisaya. I will try the method that you recommend, Sol_Itaire. And you know why? Because I have no other option. So, in the end, your method prevails and I am the ultimate loser since I have been trying to master this for almost three years with very little progress. But I won't give up.