are we all sinners ??

[fingolfin]

---

.. for me, that noah's flood was discrimate-mass-murder. What made Noah's family so special ??


.. and in cases of "criminals" , they're doing it out of necessity

[chad_tukes]

Now, if it's true that morality (right and wrong) are just subjective and relative, and if it undergoes change over time, that would mean that Hitler really did no wrong in exterminating the Jews, given that it was part of Nazi morality to get rid of the Jews, right? You seem to admit that because you seem to say that Hitler didn't really do anything wrong because he "did what he thought was right at that moment --- and that is to kill millions of Jews."

morality is indeed subjective to a person's thoughts (or emotions) at that moment. did Hitler think he would commit sin by doing such barbarous acts? i would like to think he did not. Hitler's acts are wrong to many but to him it was right.

Now, I'm a bit confused here sir. You agreed with Amorsolo that there's no such thing as (objective) right and wrong, didn't you? And you also seemed to think that morality changes over time, am I right? How come you now say that Hitler's actions were absolutely wrong when you said earlier that morality changes over time? Who are you to judge Hitler when, in your own words, he "did what he thought was right at that moment --- and that is to kill millions of Jews"?

all i'm saying is that, Hitler, at that moment in time, thought killing millions of Jews [for him] was the right thing to do. now am i saying it was right for Hitler to think that? of course not. if you ask me if it was right or wrong? all i'm saying is that it's wrong. that shouldn't be so hard to understand. yes, morality changes overtime. racism for instance, is considered "normal" 40-50 years ago. now do white people thought it was wrong? no! they thought racism was normal because negroes were considered slaves. even but look at USA now, one minor discrimination complaint directed at you and say good luck with keeping that job.

I can't recall having made that statement about Hitler sir.

If you ask me, I think that what Hitler did was abominable, not because I feel it's abominable, but simply because I know it's abominable. It's plainly obvious. You can ask anyone what they think about the Holocaust and anyone who thinks that the Holocaust is somehow right has, to be quite frank about it, impaired moral judgments. I don't mean you, of course. I'm sure you also agree that it was an abomination.

i feel the same way about Hitler and i'm sure 99.9% of us do---and why is that so? again, this goes back to the "morality changes overtime" topic. if this was 80 years ago, it would have been different.

You said earlier sir that morality changes over time. If that's true, can we really criticize Hitler?

we can criticize Hitler according to our standards. but who are we to say that Hitler was evil? sure, we can say he's evil, but was he evil because he killed millions of Jews? or was it merely because he THOUGHT it was the right thing to do [for him]?

So you believe what the Bible says?

no, i don't---but Christians do. so why leave GOD off the equation when it's clearly stated in the Bible that GOD killed millions of people [like Hitler]?

What do you mean?

please refer to my thread "Why Is God Innocent?"

[fingolfin]

So for you what's wrong at one time in our history can be right in another time (the present), such as slavery... So you're saying that slavery itself is not wrong?



I'm amazed that you believe that bro. I mean, you don't think robbery is wrong?

.. like i said a couple of post back, have you ever talked to any criminal before ?? Have you talked to a burglar Coz if not, you won't understand how they truly feel and you would always see the RIGHT OR WRONG based on society.

We humans are simply paying the consequences for our actions here on earth.. Just like here in istorya.net we are being judged and punished based on the actions and behavior we've made.. do we get to argue? no.. arguing will only lead to severe punishment... So why do we humans level ourselves to God? are we that highly intelligent? are we that powerful? are we so capable of doing his job?

.. your comparison to god's judgement and to istorya.net's moderators are for a lack of a better word, inappropriate. Here in istorya.net, members are being punished due to their mistakes, we have a set of rules and if any of you violates them, we mandate the consequence INSTANTLY. But with your so called God, me alone, have broke every commandment in the Bible and yet where is my punishment ?? For sure, the religious will say, WAIT TILL THE FINAL JUDGEMENT ... this is clearly off topic really.

[miyay]

i've always wondered why we want to define ourselves. does the label "sinner" really suit our purpose? does it give our lives more meaning to be called a "sinner"? and vice versa ("saint")

[josephdc]

.. for me, that noah's flood was discrimate-mass-murder. What made Noah's family so special ??

You said that morals are constantly evolving so that what may be wrong at one time in history may not be wrong at another time. I guess that also means that an act wouldn't be wrong at all times or through out history, right? Why do you say that that story in the Bible is wrong when morality, according to your view, changes from time to time?

.. and in cases of "criminals" , they're doing it out of necessity

So because they're doing it out of necessity that makes criminal acts like stealing and killing okay?

[josephdc]

morality is indeed subjective to a person's thoughts (or emotions) at that moment. did Hitler think he would commit sin by doing such barbarous acts? i would like to think he did not. Hitler's acts are wrong to many but to him it was right.

all i'm saying is that, Hitler, at that moment in time, thought killing millions of Jews [for him] was the right thing to do. now am i saying it was right for Hitler to think that? of course not. if you ask me if it was right or wrong? all i'm saying is that it's wrong. that shouldn't be so hard to understand.

So you think Hitler was wrong. But if that's all morality is -- subjective, relative, changes over time -- what is your basis for making the judgment that Hitler was wrong? You say that he was morally wrong although he may think and believe that what he was doing was right, but what moral standard are you using to judge his actions? Your own? But he had his own set of (subjective) morality. Are you saying that your moral standard is superior to his?

yes, morality changes overtime. racism for instance, is considered "normal" 40-50 years ago. now do white people thought it was wrong? no! they thought racism was normal because negroes were considered slaves. even but look at USA now, one minor discrimination complaint directed at you and say good luck with keeping that job.

So you're saying that racism is not really wrong, it's only "wrong" in a relative sense?

we can criticize Hitler according to our standards. but who are we to say that Hitler was evil? sure, we can say he's evil, but was he evil because he killed millions of Jews? or was it merely because he THOUGHT it was the right thing to do [for him]?

I don't know. Are you saying that what Hitler did was not evil?

no, i don't---but Christians do. so why leave GOD off the equation when it's clearly stated in the Bible that GOD killed millions of people [like Hitler]?

You don't believe that that event in the Bible ever happened? Why did you bring up that example if you don't even think it's true?

[josephdc]

.. like i said a couple of post back, have you ever talked to any criminal before ?? Have you talked to a burglar Coz if not, you won't understand how they truly feel and you would always see the RIGHT OR WRONG based on society.

What would be their reasons for committing crimes? Are you saying that those justify stealing and killing?

[josephdc]

i've always wondered why we want to define ourselves. does the label "sinner" really suit our purpose? does it give our lives more meaning to be called a "sinner"? and vice versa ("saint")

What do you mean sis? Are you saying that there's no such thing as a "sinner" or a "saint"?

[miyay]

What do you mean sis? Are you saying that there's no such thing as a "sinner" or a "saint"?

bro, what i mean is what is the use of being called a "sinner" or a "saint"? imo, only if one wants to condemn others, one labels them "sinners". if one wants to be praised, one wants to be called a "saint". but does it really, really matter?

[josephdc]

^ What doesn't matter sis, to have those labels?