Christianity and violence!

[jamesmusslewhite]

---

Sorry, but your figures are wrong. Your selectively picking numbers to support your case. The actual number of people killed under stalins regime is 3-60 million people. A very large variance. Its dishonest to suddenly claim 60 million as the actual number just to make your argument look good. And as for that numbet, that includes all the people killed during the war world war. A large portion of whatever the final number is due to the battles that happened.

As for Mao, your picking statistics again. The number is some sources is 50-70 million, while others sources give the number at 40 million.

So 3-60 million deaths under Stalin, 50-70 million under mao. That number includes the deaths due to famine, invasion, murder, political purges... Anyway this site (Twentieth Century Atlas - Most Evil Dictator) has a better breakdown.
The site you used referenced this site as their source for your figures.
Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls
Your one posted URL shows the figures 30-60 million but failed to account for much as to help keep communism in a more favorable light.
Your other supporting site shows the following figures"
Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls
Stalin 35-62 million
Mao 44.5-72 Million
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM States the following statement
"In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone--one communist country-- well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it."

So your own supporting figures from your own sources are 79.5 Million to 134 Million committed by only two Communist Atheist Leaders in 40 years. How many were killed in all the others countries that Atheist Communism spread too? How many more Millions should be added to this number? All in the last 60 years. How many of those deaths were murdered for their religions by Atheist and Pagans.

On the other hand, deaths caused by religious wars (alone) accounts for 809 million people! (Deaths over history: religious vs. nonreligous Bookrate) 809 million. If you stop and think about the number of people actually present during that times, that number is mind boggling.
The people at which time it does go back to Shang, China 1300-1050 BCE I am courious where the historical facts really come from. seen many 3,300 year old record books. Did you even look at the wars that comprised the 809 million murders of Religious. In the year 1800 there were only 900 Million people living in the world.

• 
  
  • Albigensian Crusade, 1208-49
  • Algeria, 1992-
  • Aztecs
  • Baha'is, 1848-54
  • Bosnia, 1992-95
  • Boxer Rebellion, 1899-1901
  • Christian Romans, 30-313 CE
  • Croatia, 1991-92
  • Early Christian doctrinal disputes
  • English Civil War, 1642-46
  • Holocaust, 1938-45
  • Huguenot Wars, 1562-1598
  • India, 1992-2002
  • India: Suttee & Thugs
  • Indo-Pakistani Partition, 1947
  • Iran, Islamic Republic, 1979-
  • Iraq, Shiites, 1991-92
  • Jews, 1348
  • Jonestown, 1978
  • Korea, 1700s
  • Lebanon
    
    • 1860
    • 1975-92
  • Martyrs, generally
  • Molucca Is., 1999-
  • Mongolia, 1937-39
  • Northern Ireland, 1974-98
  • Responsibility generally (Is religion responsible for more deaths than ...?)
    
    • Christian culpabiltiy
  • Russian pogroms:
    
    • 1905-06
    • 1917-22
  • St. Bartholemew Massacre, 1572
  • Shang China, ca. 1300-1050 BCE
  • Shimabara Revolt, Japan 1637-38
  • Sikh uprising, India, 1984-91
  • Spanish Inquisition, 1478-1834
  • Taiping Rebellion, 1850-64
  • Thirty Years War, 1618-48
  • Tudor England
  • Vietnam, 1800s
  • Witch Hunts, 1400-1800
  • Xhosa, 1857
• In addition, here are a few noteworthy conflicts where dissimilar ethnic groups fought for primarily religious reasons:
  
  • Arab Outbreak, 7th Century CE
  • Arab-Israeli Wars, 1948-
  • Al Qaeda, 1993-
  • Bible
  • Crusades, 1095-1291
  • Dutch Revolt, 1566-1609
  • Muslim conquest of India, 11th-17th C
  • Nigeria, 1990s, 2000s

Under the "Responsibility" link go to site's authors Q&A
Q: Is religion responsible for more more violent deaths than any other cause?
A: No, of course not -- unless you define religion so broadly as to be meaningless. Just take the four deadliest events of the 20th Century -- Two World Wars, Red China and the Soviet Union -- no religious motivation there, unless you consider every belief system to be a religion.
Q: So, what you're saying is that religion has never killed anyone.
A: Arrgh... You all-or-nothing people drive me crazy. There are many documented examples where members of one religion try to exterminate the members of another religion. Causation is always complex, but if the only difference between two warring groups is religion, then that certainly sounds like a religious conflict to me. Is it the number one cause of mass homicide in human history? No. Of the 22 worst episodes of mass killing, maybe four were primarily religious. Is that a lot? Well, it's more than the number of wars fought over soccer, or *** (The Trojan and Sabine Wars don't even make the list.), but less than the number fought over land, money, glory or prestige.
In my Index, I list 41 religious conflicts compared with 27 oppressions under "Communism", 24 under Colonialism, 2 under "Railroads" and 2 under "Scapegoats". Make of that what you will.
Many of these were people of religion being killed by Pagans

Who is the greatest murderer now?
You
Because you butchered the truth, entered outlandish number from a cheap hack website. Who's own reference site nowhere come close to supporting his outrageous claims or your outrageous claims. They do support my claims. So your insults where not justified. And your argument unsupported by verifiable facts. I would like to see real numbers that are based on facts and not conjecture. I am qenuinely interested.

I cant believe how arrogant some (SOME) of you Christians are. Stop and think about what your saying for a moment there. I consider myself an atheist but it seems like I remembered more about the basic tenets of the Christian faith.
Well I am happy that you feel so proud of your poor performance. And choose to try to belittle me with you cute little snippy comment. Yes you are a Atheist with an obvious agenda, but your statement is still proven to be false. And you call me Arrogant?

Your basic tenets of the Christian faith? this means you can quote the true dogma of the Biblical text. Then please give me the quotes in the Bible that Christ said to his faithful followers (Christians) to harm or kill unbelievers, Pagans, and Atheist.

Hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy is the act of pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually have?
See that is a false statement. I do not pretend, I really truly feel that way.
You just need to spend time checking your sources and get you a dictionary. That way you will not appear to be such an inerudite debator.

This was interesting, a total waste of time, but interesting.

[bodie]

So your own supporting figures from your own sources are 79.5 Million to 134 Million committed by only two Communist Atheist Leaders in 40 years. How many were killed in all the others countries that Atheist Communism spread too? How many more Millions should be added to this number? All in the last 60 years. How many of those deaths were murdered for their religions by Atheist and Pagans.

On the other hand, deaths caused by religious wars (alone) accounts for 809 million people! (Deaths over history: religious vs. nonreligous Bookrate) 809 million. If you stop and think about the number of people actually present during that times, that number is mind boggling.
The people at which time it does go back to Shang, China 1300-1050 BCE I am courious where the historical facts really come from. seen many 3,300 year old record books. Did you even look at the wars that comprised the 809 million murders of Religious. In the year 1800 there were only 900 Million people living in the world.

You are the one eager for the battle of numbers here. Let the numbers speak for themselves. I don’t recall a previous poster making any sort of assertion that regimes led by people who deny the existence of your god saying that they are paragons of virtue.

Did I ever claim that all these people were killed within the same time frame as your figures? My point is if your willing to claim that atheists killed that many people, you can’t ignore your own religions history.

Under the "Responsibility" link go to site's authors Q&A
Q: Is religion responsible for more more violent deaths than any other cause?
A: No, of course not -- unless you define religion so broadly as to be meaningless. Just take the four deadliest events of the 20th Century -- Two World Wars, Red China and the Soviet Union -- no religious motivation there, unless you consider every belief system to be a religion.
Q: So, what you're saying is that religion has never killed anyone.
A: Arrgh... You all-or-nothing people drive me crazy. There are many documented examples where members of one religion try to exterminate the members of another religion. Causation is always complex, but if the only difference between two warring groups is religion, then that certainly sounds like a religious conflict to me. Is it the number one cause of mass homicide in human history? No. Of the 22 worst episodes of mass killing, maybe four were primarily religious. Is that a lot? Well, it's more than the number of wars fought over soccer, or *** (The Trojan and Sabine Wars don't even make the list.), but less than the number fought over land, money, glory or prestige.
In my Index, I list 41 religious conflicts compared with 27 oppressions under "Communism", 24 under Colonialism, 2 under "Railroads" and 2 under "Scapegoats". Make of that what you will.
Many of these were people of religion being killed by Pagans

Paganism is a blanket term used to refer to various non Judeo-Christian religions.

Hence, deaths caused by religion.

And before you say anything, no, its not a numbers game.

You
Because you butchered the truth, entered outlandish number from a cheap hack website. Who's own reference site nowhere come close to supporting his outrageous claims or your outrageous claims. They do support my claims. So your insults where not justified. And your argument unsupported by verifiable facts. I would like to see real numbers that are based on facts and not conjecture. I am qenuinely interested.

So giving figures that shows how shallow your own numbers are makes me a better murderer? Since my rough numbers shows how baseless your claims are, you resort to ad hominem attacks now.

Not unexpected from the likes if you.

Lets get back to the real issue here.

Your argument: Religion is not the problem, Atheist are the problem. Look, atheist leaders killed a lot of people. I have numbers, so and so who happens to lead this country killed x people.

My counter: Your proof does not make sense. The number of people killed by so and so leader has nothing to do with being an atheist or not. And as a side note, lets look at the number of people who died who died in the name of religion. Your grasping at straws.

I cant believe how arrogant some (SOME) of you Christians are. Stop and think about what your saying for a moment there. I consider myself an atheist but it seems like I remembered more about the basic tenets of the Christian faith.
Well I am happy that you feel so proud of your poor performance. And choose to try to belittle me with you cute little snippy comment. Yes you are a Atheist with an obvious agenda, but your statement is still proven to be false. And you call me Arrogant?

Yes, I am calling you out on your hypocrisy. From your previous post:

Find another reason to hate God, and persecute Jews and Christians. But put the blame where it truly belongs. If not that you are just part of the problem and not a solution. Jesus teaches me to forgive my neighbor and love him more than myself. Even evil and stupid people.

Frankly I will be glad when God comes and wipes this world clean of this ignorance. He is coming, which side will you be standing is your choice. Choose wisely.

MAN IS EVIL, AND PEOPLE ARE STUPID********RELIGION IS YOUR ONLY HOPE_FROM FOOLS!

Read your statement again. Am I the only one here who sees how hilarious this is.

Your basic tenets of the Christian faith? this means you can quote the true dogma of the Biblical text. Then please give me the quotes in the Bible that Christ said to his faithful followers (Christians) to harm or kill unbelievers, Pagans, and Atheist.

Why are you asking an atheist to quote scripture?

I believe this entire thread was created to address the disconnect between the teachings of the Christian church and the actions of many of its members. Things like the crusades, the inquisition, bombings of abortion clinics and a lot of other things.

Hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy is the act of pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually have?
See that is a false statement. I do not pretend, I really truly feel that way.
You just need to spend time checking your sources and get you a dictionary. That way you will not appear to be such an inerudite debator.

A dictionary? Really? Is that the best you can come up with.
Again:

Find another reason to hate God, and persecute Jews and Christians. But put the blame where it truly belongs. If not that you are just part of the problem and not a solution. Jesus teaches me to forgive my neighbor and love him more than myself. Even evil and stupid people.

Frankly I will be glad when God comes and wipes this world clean of this ignorance. He is coming, which side will you be standing is your choice. Choose wisely.

MAN IS EVIL, AND PEOPLE ARE STUPID********RELIGION IS YOUR ONLY HOPE_FROM FOOLS!

And yes, you are being a hypocrite. Read.

[jamesmusslewhite]

no surprise. James is fond of labelling those killers as atheists. as i've posted before, and i'll post it again---they did not murder people BECAUSE they were atheists. there is a huge difference if you say they murdered people because they did not believe in God; that certainly wasn't the case. and hold on, where is the Catholic boy Hitler in that list?

Yes Tuke you are correct, they did not kill because because they were Atheist, but they were Atheist who killed. Just as men do not kill just because they are Christians. The evil acts were by evil men. And if you read my post on this thread you would see that is what I was trying to point out to the Christian Haters Club. Evil men kill for personal gain.
Hitler was not included because the dude all ready had him in his figures that he was using in his arguments. But no bastard that could do the things that he did could be a true Christian. I personally think Hitler was one of your "Closet Atheist" he used the concept of religion as a tool to mask his true beliefs and agenda. Plus we know how religious Catholic choir boys can grow up to be.
Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Religion does not kill men kill, Atheism does not kill, men kill and acts of evil are still acts of evil. The rest are just labels, excuses, attempts to justify, or trying to find vindication for their actions.

I am a Christian and I am well versed, and the teachings of Christ does not allow me the right to murder another. The Bible does not kill no more that a rock, rope, knife, or gun can kill. It takes the human factor to take them from being a tool to being use as an instrument of murder.

If you look at the early church it is not what it is now. The emperor of Rome was also Pope, and the leaders of the Church were the rich and powerful because the bought their post. Each country had a State-run official church which was the wing of the government. The people of today are not the people of the Dark Ages. Trying to punish today and act 2,000 years or more just so you can feel good in your disbelief is rather a shallow venture at best. Yes men who claim to be religious commit evil acts, men who claim to be non religious air Atheist also commit evil acts.

Not every man who claims to be religious is really religious, many are liars. Not every Atheist is a nice guy either.

Marx "Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

Stalin is quoted as saying "You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...all this talk about God is sheer nonsense"

Karl Marx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Joseph Stalin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
@LBiz: en/1984/DOSC288: Atheist.Education
Mao Zedong

[jamesmusslewhite]

You are the one eager for the battle of numbers here. Let the numbers speak for themselves. I don’t recall a previous poster making any sort of assertion that regimes led by people who deny the existence of your god saying that they are paragons of virtue.
You attacked my numbers as false, so I verified them. Then you threw 908 million with not verifiable proof at all. So I used your site which verified my figures as being true.
Did I ever claim that all these people were killed within the same time frame as your figures? My point is if your willing to claim that atheists killed that many people, you can’t ignore your own religions history.
I only used the deaths at the hands of Communist leaders to show that it was not only men of religion that kills but men of no religion can kill on the grand scale, many of those deaths were people of religion. Evil men kill with or without religion.

I do not ignore it, but I can distinguish between religion and the acts of evil men. That it is politics that start the wars religion is just a tool. Most men fight for reasons other than religion. I was almost killed in Beirut 1983, the Marines were their to protect PLO in the camps when Israel invaded Lebanon. The Muslims drove a truck full of explosives into our barrack killing 241 of my friends. They did not do it for Islam, they did it for power. Israel did not invade because of religion, they did it for security for their citizens. We Marines were not there because we were Christians, we were doing our jobs. You would classify it as religious driven deaths. That is wrong. The crusades was not intended to just attack Muslims, if you follow the history they first waged a war and conquered the city of Constantinople the Western seat of the Roman Empire. It as political more than religious. As most wars are fought over politics, religion plays little part. They are fought for land, wealth, and power. Not my God against your God.

Paganism is a blanket term used to refer to various non Judeo-Christian religions.
A Pagan is a Gentile. Unless you are Jewish you are Gentile. That makes you a Pagan. I being a no Jewish Christian am still considered a Pagan in the eyes of a Jew. I am a Gentile.
Hence, deaths caused by religion.

And before you say anything, no, its not a numbers game.
I am still trying to find that 908 million number.

So giving figures that shows how shallow your own numbers are makes me a better murderer? Since my rough numbers shows how baseless your claims are, you resort to ad hominem attacks now.
Excuse me my numbers were correct and well in line with the facts. You are the one that needs to prove 908 Million. You just through up a quick cut and paste from a quack site.
Not unexpected from the likes if you.
ad hominem attacks? You are an insulting one aren't you, yet you still did not verify 908 Million.
Lets get back to the real issue here.

Your argument: Religion is not the problem, Atheist are the problem. Look, atheist leaders killed a lot of people. I have numbers, so and so who happens to lead this country killed x people.
I did not say that! I said religion and atheism are not the problem. The problem is the evil in mankind. Man needs no titles to commit evil acts.
My counter: Your proof does not make sense. The number of people killed by so and so leader has nothing to do with being an atheist or not. And as a side note, lets look at the number of people who died who died in the name of religion. Your grasping at straws.
The evil acts of men kill. Religion is just an excuse for some. I see beyond religion and Atheism and see the real problem the evil nature of man. You can not know how many die or are killed by religion. Not everyone doing the killing are religious and not everyone dieing are religious. Most of those that die are young men of innocent victims. Yes evil bastards can take a young man and convince him to strap on a bomb and kill people. That is evil men and ignorance of man that causes this. Why because of religion? Or because some evil bastard tricks a ignorant man to die instead of him doing it himself? If religion said to do it he would strap on the bomb himself and not use a ignorant young man.

Yes, I am calling you out on your hypocrisy. From your previous post:
it implies by you wrong usage of the word that I do not believe in my statement. I do believe every word of it from deep within my heart. So Hypocrisy is still the wrong word. That is why I told you to get a dictionary so you could find the proper word, or at least learn the true definition of the word you used.

Read your statement again. Am I the only one here who sees how hilarious this is.
Nope as you get older you will find just who true that statement actually is. It is probably just too deep and blatantly honest for you. Please feel free to Laugh at it all you want. I am at you.

Why are you asking an atheist to quote scripture?
you were the one who said "I remembered more about the basic tenets of the Christian faith".
Tenet (noun) A principle taught or advanced for belief, as by a religious or philosophical group: doctrine, dogma, teaching.
So I asked to to please quote form the Bible were Jesus gives man the right to think he can murder another man and still be a Christian. I have never found one. I am sorry I took you serious, I did not know you were only Big Talking me. That is what I get for trusting.

I believe this entire thread was created to address the disconnect between the teachings of the Christian church and the actions of many of its members. Things like the crusades, the inquisition, bombings of abortion clinics and a lot of other things.
Really so this was designed so you could make negative remarks towards religion as Atheistic sport without people of religion responding. Interesting concept. Still a Church that would teach such things, is not a true Christian church. that is the point that this thread wants to ignore.

A dictionary? Really? Is that the best you can come up with.
Again:
Well you do seem to misuse a couple of words "hypocrisy" and "tenets" it was not an insult but rather a suggestion. I am 51 well educated, spoke English my whole life and I still keep one handy.

And yes, you are being a hypocrite. Read.
See a dictionary would be helpful.

So I will leave you to play with yourself, and you can play "Master-Debater"

[Gotterdammerung.2]

if i were to score it, this would be my number

+10 for bodie
-10 for jamesmusslewhite

[Gotterdammerung.2]

I believe this entire thread was created to address the disconnect between the teachings of the Christian church and the actions of many of its members. Things like the crusades, the inquisition, bombings of abortion clinics and a lot of other things.

right! You know how these people operates. Show them the bad side of their Religion, they will just ignore it and resorts to ad hominem and cover ups.

[jamesmusslewhite]

right! You know how these people operates. Show them the bad side of their Religion, they will just ignore it and resorts to ad hominem and cover ups.

Yes as your people do as well. Ad hominem and cover ups? That claim coming from you is hollow at best. You impose a label on me, as to restrict, censor, or control. That is called "projection", you impose on others that which you know is within yourself; so you can fault those flaws in others, that you despise in yourself. Still does not change the fact that I am right.

Evil man kills, religion is just an excuse, a tool, a label. More reason are Greed, Lust, ***, Ethnic cleaning, Power, Land, Politics, Money, and a hundred other reasons that have no religious roots. These are the evils of men plain and simple. Religion is man's attempt to understand a book. Most who read the book are not religious. Shame you can not understand that.

[jamesmusslewhite]

if i were to score it, this would be my number

+10 for bodie
-10 for jamesmusslewhite

Well my figures were correct and verifiable and I used solid websites. An spoke of the root of the problem.

He used a outlandish figure off a hack website, which could not verify his figure or claim. And resorted to direct insults.

So what you are saying is that you are incapable of being fair, balanced, and objective. One can not be graded fairly unless they are in compliance with your belief.
Score it as you choose. This thread is still a failure. Poor TS.

[Gotterdammerung.2]

Yes as your people do as well. Ad hominem and cover ups? That claim coming from you is hollow at best. You impose a label on me, as to restrict, censor, or control. That is called "projection", you impose on others that which you know is within yourself; so you can fault those flaws in others, that you despise in yourself. Still does not change the fact that I am right.

Ad hominem came when you decide to throw one first. not our fault!

Evil man kills, religion is just an excuse, a tool, a label. More reason are Greed, Lust, ***, Ethnic cleaning, Power, Land, Politics, Money, and a hundred other reasons that have no religious roots. These are the evils of men plain and simple. Religion is man's attempt to understand a book. Most who read the book are not religious. Shame you can not understand that.

tsk tsk..you are side stepping. You are a failure! You can't defend your faith well.

[Gotterdammerung.2]

Well my figures were correct and verifiable and I used solid websites. An spoke of the root of the problem.

He used a outlandish figure off a hack website, which could not verify his figure or claim. And resorted to direct insults.

So what you are saying is that you are incapable of being fair, balanced, and objective. One can not be graded fairly unless they are in compliance with your belief.
Score it as you choose. This thread is still a failure. Poor TS.

bodie stayed within the topic thus i gave him +10

You gave a point totally missing the main issue thus i gave you -10

by the way just in case you think too highly of yourself, let me drop this one on you...your logic has no hint of genius at all.


let me show you what true genius is... read here..."So giving figures that shows how shallow your own numbers are makes me a better murderer? Since my rough numbers shows how baseless your claims are, you resort to ad hominem attacks now.

Not unexpected from the likes if you.

Lets get back to the real issue here.

Your argument: Religion is not the problem, Atheist are the problem. Look, atheist leaders killed a lot of people. I have numbers, so and so who happens to lead this country killed x people.

My counter: Your proof does not make sense. The number of people killed by so and so leader has nothing to do with being an atheist or not. And as a side note, lets look at the number of people who died who died in the name of religion. Your grasping at straws. "


Here is another one..."I believe this entire thread was created to address the disconnect between the teachings of the Christian church and the actions of many of its members. Things like the crusades, the inquisition, bombings of abortion clinics and a lot of other things."



That's what I call Genius. Not running away from the real issue and hitting the point right at the center.

Those guys you mentioned did not kill FOR atheism. Your guys on the other hand in the name of God annihilated millions. poor you.