Karma and Reincarnation.

[Tirong-say]

If we insist on being as sure as is conceivable ... we must be content to creep along the ground, and can never soar.
- John Henry Cardinal Newman

It is better to have an open mind mostly that science is still exploring the things we considered unknown, one can always keep what he believe is true, but he should always consider that things are always revealing and would continue until the real truth is acheived.

[Existanz]

Biblical reasoning? What is your basis that your biblical reasoning is more superior than human or LOGICAL REASONING? Give me your evidence before you would say that biblical reasoning is better than human or LOGICAL REASONING!

Reg try lang ko ug tubag ani ha kay personal question ni para sa ako (not that you are trying to do that).

BIBLE REASONING- as what had been said many times it is because the Bible claim it is the truth in itself. In this way it is an authority to those who 'choice' to believe. Logic is non-applicable here since everything will fall short of faith if this truth can be logical proven. If this is logical then the Bible could not claim by itself it is of God but simply man's earthbound logic.

Yes, I accept this is a 'reasoning' with feet in mid-air.

LOGICAL REASONING- As what is pointed out by Ludwig Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico:

Proposition 1- "The world is everything that is the case." in purest form of LOGICAL REASONING to which you find higher than Biblical Reasoning.

If this is what you believe and was implying then transcendental matters should be of no a concern for you...

Proposition 7- Where (or of what) one cannot speak, one must pass over in silence. thats for Logical Reasoning...

Talks of logical consistencies in transcendental matters are simply our consolation to what we choice to believe, still our feet is in mid-air or perhaps worst our wits..

[The_Child]

ye greatest sin was to consider that the metaphysical assumptions of old, still runs true. Aristotle was merely an image, and Wittgenstein is dead. Not only that, he has disappeared. what we have is only his double, not a shadow, that runs amok through the networks of communication.

talk of logic, in a time of non-logic. talk of the bible, when it was merely toy.

[Existanz]

Think of karma and reincarnation...justice is serve for bad things being done in the past by being reincarnated for another lifetime...for instance:

Now, it seems that if a baby is born with a congenital cleft in the middle of the upper lip- bungi ba, we can say perhaps during his previous life this soul sige ug panaway sa mga tao nga mituo ug Karma and Reincarnation diri sa S&O forum...I think it is probable if we believe in K&R philosphy...

So, we say this boy, which is soon to be a man, serve his karma in his previous life...bungi man siya.

The problem is that, medical technology like surgery is now able to repair this Karmic defects...assuming upon his birth the doctors immediately did a surgery to repair said defect, can we still say that in K&R philosophy justice has been served in this case?

Now it is not illogical to think that there will come a time in human progress that medical science will be able to heal or cure almost all congenital diseases, cancers, AIDS etcetera...or even say, what color your baby's skin will be, hair, tall or short etcetera...all those things that medical science will someday able to control nature will come true.

When this dawn of the medical golden age will come, how can now Karma and Reincarnation justify equal justice to be dispense on everyone for their evil actions? Imagine, a soul supposed to be born with no visions because of his previous karma and upon his birth medical science provided him with a new sets of eyes grown in the labs easy as changing your dead cellphone battery...what now is Karma and Reincarnation?

[Pein]

If you think the works of Dr. Ian Stevenson has been refuted, then give me the refutation... meaning give me your EVIDENCE and PROOF that those works have been reuted. You cite your references before I will believe in you or else that is just hearsay or CHISMIS 101!

Biblical reasoning? What is your basis that your biblical reasoning is more superior than human or LOGICAL REASONING? Give me your evidence before you would say that biblical reasoning is better than human or LOGICAL REASONING!

na prove na diay ni Dr. Ian Stevenson nga naay soul? naay karma? so ang science diay mutuo diay ug soul? mutuo ug karma?

beh pagsabot sa kuno mo sa mga maayong laki sa science diri...

[regnauld]

na prove na diay ni Dr. Ian Stevenson nga naay soul? naay karma? so ang science diay mutuo diay ug soul? mutuo ug karma?

beh pagsabot sa kuno mo sa mga maayong laki sa science diri...

I first recommend that you read and study thoroughly the works of Dr. Ian Stevenson ,an Atheist before you make a comment and question or else you are just trying to expose your ignorance again and again!

[regnauld]

Brothers let us read and study this with an open mind!

Christian Reincarnation

The doctrine itself

Looking at the sequence of creation from its inception to its conclusion, one could summarize Origen's theological system as follows: Originally all beings existed as pure mind on an ideational or thought level. Humans, angels, and heavenly bodies lacked incarnate existence and had their being only as ideas. This is a very natural view for anyone like Origen who was trained in both Christian and Platonic thought. Since there is no account in the scriptures of what preceded creation, it seemed perfectly natural to Origen to appeal to Plato for his answers.

God, for the Platonist, is pure intelligence and all things were reconciled with God before creation - an assumption which scripture does not appear to contradict. Then as the process of the fall began, individual beings became weary of their union with God and chose to defect or grow cold in their divine ardor. As the mind became cool toward God, it made the first step down in its fall and became soul. The soul, now already once removed from its original state, continued with its defection to the point of taking on a body. This, as we know from Platonism, is indeed a degradation, for the highest type of manifestation is on the mental level and the lowest is on the physical.

Such an account of man's fall does not mean that Origen rejected Genesis. It only means that he was willing to allow for allegorical interpretation; thus Eden is not necessarily spatially located, but is a cosmic and metaphysical event wherein pure disincarnate idea became fettered to physical matter. What was essential for Christianity, as Origen perceived, is that the fall be voluntary and result in a degree of estrangement from God.

Where there is a fall, there must follow the drama of reconciliation. Love is one of God's qualities, as Origen himself acknowledged, and from this it follows that God will take an interest in the redemption of his creatures. For Origen, this means that after the drama of incarnation the soul assumes once again its identity as mind and recovers its ardor for God.

It was to hasten this evolution that in the fullness of time God sent the Christ. The Christ of Origen was the Incarnate Word (he was also the only being that did not grow cold toward God), and he came both as a mediator and as an incarnate image of God's goodness. By allowing the wisdom and light of God to shine in one's life through the inspiration of Christ, the individual soul could swiftly regain its ardor for God, leave behind the burden of the body, and regain complete reconciliation with God. In fact, said Origen, much to the outrage of his critics, the extent and power of God's love is so great that eventually all things will be restored to him, even Satan and his legions.

Since the soul's tenancy of any given body is but one of many episodes in its journey from God and back again, the doctrine of reincarnation is implicit. As for the resurrection of the body, Origen created a tempest of controversy by insisting that the physical body wastes away and returns to dust, while the resurrection takes on a spiritual or transformed body. This is of course handy for the reincarnationist, for it means that the resurrected body either can be the summation and climax of all the physical bodies that came before or indeed may bear no resemblance at all to the many physical bodies.

There will come a time when the great defection from God that initiated physical creation will come to an end. All things, both heavenly bodies and human souls, will be so pure and ardent in their love for God that physical existence will no longer be necessary. The entire cohesion of creation will come apart, for matter will be superfluous. Then, to cite one of Origen's favorite passages, all things will be made subject to God and God will be "all in all." ( 1 Cor 15:28 ) This restoration of all things proposed by Origen gave offense in later centuries. It seemed quite sensible to Origen that anything that defects from God must eventually be brought back to him. As he triumphantly affirmed at the end of his "On First Principles", men are the "blood brothers" of God himself and cannot stay away forever.


Christian Reincarnation: The Long Forgotten Doctrine

[regnauld]

Christian Reincarnation

The controversy

During the period from A.D. 250 to 553 controversy raged, at least intermittently, around the name of Origen, and from this controversy emerged the major objections that orthodox Christianity raises against reincarnation. Origen of Alexandria, one of Christianity's greatest systematic theologians, was a believer in reincarnation.


Origen was a person devoted to scriptural authority, a scourge to the enemies of the church, and a martyr for the faith. He was the spiritual teacher of a large and grateful posterity and yet his teachings were declared heresy in 553. The debates and controversies that flared up around his teachings are in fact the record of reincarnation in the church.


The case against Origen grew by fits and starts from about A.D. 300 (fifty years after his death) until 553. There were writers of great eminence among his critics as well as some rather obscure ecclesiasts. They included Methodius of Olympus, Eppiphanius of Salamis, Theophilus, Bishop of Jerusalem, Jerome, and the Emperor Justinian. The first of these, Methodius of Olympus, was a bishop in Greece and died a martyr's death in the year 311. He and Peter of Alexandria, whose works are almost entirely lost, represent the first wave of anti-Origenism. They were concerned chiefly with the preexistence of souls and Origen's notions about the resurrection of the dead. Another more powerful current against Origenism arose about a century later. The principals were Ephiphanius of Salamis, Theophilus of Alexandria, and Jerome.



From about 395 to 403 Origen became the subject of heated debate throughout Christendom. These three ecclesiats applied much energy and thought in search of questionable doctrine in Origen. Again the controversy flared up around 535, and in the wake of this the Emperor Justinian composed a tract against Origen in 543, proposing nine anathemas against "On First Principles", Origen's chief theological work. Origen was finally officially condemned in the Second Council of Constantinople in 553, when fifteen anathemas were charged against him.


The critics of Origen attacked him on individual points, and thus did not create a systematic theology to oppose him. Nonetheless, one can glean from their writings five major points that Christianity has raised against reincarnation:

(1) It seems to minimize Christian salvation.
(2) It is in conflict with the resurrection of the body.
(3) It creates an unnatural separation between body and soul.
(4) It is built on a much too speculative use of Christian scriptures.
(5) There is no recollection of previous lives.

Any discussion of these points will be greatly clarified by a preliminary look at Origen's system. Although it is of course impossible to do justice in a few pages to a thinker as subtle and profound as Origen, some of the distinctive aspects of his thought can be summarized.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen1.html

[regnauld]

Christian Reincarnation

Scriptural support for reincarnation

There are many Bible verses which are suggestive of reincarnation. One episode in particular from the healing miracles of Christ seems to point to reincarnation:

"And as he was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, 'Rabbi, who has sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?" Jesus answered, 'Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents, but the works of God were to be made manifest in him.'" (John 9:1)

The disciples ask the Lord if the man himself could have committed the sin that led to his blindness. Given the fact that the man has been blind from birth, we are confronted with a provocative question. When could he have made such transgressions as to make him blind at birth? The only conceivable answer is in some prenatal state. The question as posed by the disciples explicitly presupposes prenatal existence. It will also be noted that Christ says nothing to dispel or correct the presupposition. Here is incontrovertible support for a doctrine of human preexistence.
Also very suggestive of reincarnation is the episode where Jesus identifies John the Baptist as Elijah.

"For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come." (Matthew 11:13-14)

"And the disciples asked him, saying, 'Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?' But he answered them and said, 'Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand.' Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matthew 17:10-13)

Here again is a clear statement of preexistence. Despite the edict of the Emperor Justinian and the counter reaction to Origen, there is firm and explicit testimony for preexistence in both the Old and the New Testament. Indeed, the ban against Origen notwithstanding, contemporary Christian scholarship acknowledges preexistence as one of the elements of Judeo-Christian theology.
As for the John the Baptist-Elijah episode, there can be little question as to its purpose. By identifying the Baptist as Elijah, Jesus is identifying himself as the Messiah. Throughout the gospel narrative there are explicit references to the signs that will precede the Messiah.

Christian Reincarnation: The Long Forgotten Doctrine

[necrotic freak]

@Reg

Tubaga usa ni beh palihug? ayaw usa pag sige ug post diha ug copy/paste..

Think of karma and reincarnation...justice is serve for bad things being done in the past by being reincarnated for another lifetime...for instance:

Now, it seems that if a baby is born with a congenital cleft in the middle of the upper lip- bungi ba, we can say perhaps during his previous life this soul sige ug panaway sa mga tao nga mituo ug Karma and Reincarnation diri sa S&O forum...I think it is probable if we believe in K&R philosphy...

So, we say this boy, which is soon to be a man, serve his karma in his previous life...bungi man siya.

The problem is that, medical technology like surgery is now able to repair this Karmic defects...assuming upon his birth the doctors immediately did a surgery to repair said defect, can we still say that in K&R philosophy justice has been served in this case?

Now it is not illogical to think that there will come a time in human progress that medical science will be able to heal or cure almost all congenital diseases, cancers, AIDS etcetera...or even say, what color your baby's skin will be, hair, tall or short etcetera...all those things that medical science will someday able to control nature will come true.

When this dawn of the medical golden age will come, how can now Karma and Reincarnation justify equal justice to be dispense on everyone for their evil actions? Imagine, a soul supposed to be born with no visions because of his previous karma and upon his birth medical science provided him with a new sets of eyes grown in the labs easy as changing your dead cellphone battery...what now is Karma and Reincarnation?