Karma and Reincarnation.

[Hellblazer 2.1]

I think someone in this thread posted a link to this website wherein the author refuted the idea that the Church Fathers believed in reincarnation. But from the face of it, it's really improbable that the Fathers taught reincarnation because they are, after all, the first teachers and theologians of Christianity. They can't believe in Christ and hold to the doctrine of reincarnation.

i think it was Regnauld who posted a topic like that. and i think it was Origen he was trying to refer to. it may seem unlikely but during the ancient times, some very early church fathers did teach the doctrine of reincarnation. early christianity during those times were still broken into hundreds of factions and sects and so the church teachings were informal. it was only during the Council of Nicea that the unification of the church did happen. and so, some doctrines were voted as heretical and therefore were outlawed.

it's not so difficult to believe in Christ and at the same time believe in reincarnation, sir.

[Ramini]

OT: herr L., i like your avatar. what is that?

OT: it's the official logo of the "occult department" of the third reich Deutches Annerbhe..i

[Hellblazer 2.1]

So isn't that a contradiction? To merit "good karma" one must do good deeds, for example by helping someone who is suffering. But that is interfering with the law of "bad karma" operating on the person who is suffering, for presumably that person is in pain because of the bad deeds he or she has done in a "previous life."

sir, there is no good karma, or bad karma. karma is karma. it neither rewards nor punishes. you will only reap what you sow. you will only get consequences of your actions/inaction. it could be favorable consequence or unfavorable consequence.

to intervene without a sponsoring thought is the key to helping without entangling your karma with others, sir. you just help because you feel compelled to help, that's all. not because it may look good on you, or not because you want something in return.

[Hellblazer 2.1]

OT: it's the official logo of the "occult department" of the third reich Deutches Annerbhe..i

OT: jawohl! ja, mein freund.

[josephdc]

i think it was Regnauld who posted a topic like that. and i think it was Origen he was trying to refer to. it may seem unlikely but during the ancient times, some very early church fathers did teach the doctrine of reincarnation. early christianity during those times were still broken into hundreds of factions and sects and so the church teachings were informal. it was only during the Council of Nicea that the unification of the church did happen. and so, some doctrines were voted as heretical and therefore were outlawed.

I think it was Babypaupau who posted the link in this thread.

But the present Church would be teaching the doctrine today if the Fathers taught them in their time. That's the very reason why the Church acknowledges these thinkers as Fathers because it draws their understanding of Jesus and his commission from them.

it's not so difficult to believe in Christ and at the same time believe in reincarnation, sir.

Oh, I think there's enormous difficulty there, because reincarnation presupposes the idea that one can be saved through one's efforts.

[josephdc]

sir, there is no good karma, or bad karma. karma is karma. it neither rewards nor punishes. you will only reap what you sow. you will only get consequences of your actions/inaction. it could be favorable consequence or unfavorable consequence.

to intervene without a sponsoring thought is the key to helping without entangling your karma with others, sir. you just help because you feel compelled to help, that's all. not because it may look good on you, or not because you want something in return.

But by the very act of helping, you are interfering with the law of karma that is operating on that person whom you are helping, right?

What's a "sponsoring thought"?

[Hellblazer 2.1]

I think it was Babypaupau who posted the link in this thread.

But the present Church would be teaching the doctrine today if the Fathers taught them in their time.

it's not so difficult to believe in Christ and at the same time believe in reincarnation, sir.

Oh, I think there's enormous difficulty there, because reincarnation presupposes the idea that one can be saved through one's efforts.[/QUOTE]

your 1st sentence: yes and no. yes, some early Fathers did taught about Reincarnation in the early days of Christianity. and no, it doesn't follow that if the early fathers taught about reincarnation, it should be taught during our recent times. if you read some history books about early christianity, you will know that those fathers who taught somewhat different to what was agreed during the council of nicea, were either suppressed or silenced.

your 2nd sentence: if one can be saved thru one's efforts only, then that shouldn't be a problem, right? is there a problem with that sir? reincarnation is a process of learning through succeeding rebirths until the lessons have been learned. do you believe in Christ as a person? or as a title of any person who may attain Christhood? because either way, "Christ" is not a name or a last name of a person.

[Hellblazer 2.1]

But by the very act of helping, you are interfering with the law of karma that is operating on that person whom you are helping, right?

What's a "sponsoring thought"?

not exactly sir. there is no sharing of karma. karma is different and distinct on each individual. so, you may help a person, if you want to. your karma sir, is your own.

a sponsoring thought is the thought behind the thought. that is the controlling thought.

[josephdc]

your 1st sentence: yes and no. yes, some early Fathers did taught about Reincarnation in the early days of Christianity. and no, it doesn't follow that if the early fathers taught about reincarnation, it should be taught during our recent times. if you read some history books about early christianity, you will know that those fathers who taught somewhat different to what was agreed during the council of nicea, were either suppressed or silenced.

That's highly unlikely. Again, the present Church would still be teaching that doctrine today if that were true. It's no small thing to be considered a Father of the Church.

your 2nd sentence: if one can be saved thru one's efforts only, then that shouldn't be a problem, right? is there a problem with that sir? reincarnation is a process of learning through succeeding rebirths until the lessons have been learned. do you believe in Christ as a person? or as a title of any person who may attain Christhood? because either way, "Christ" is not a name or a last name of a person.

Oh there's no problem with that at all, unless it's true that Christ died for us and redeemed us through his death and resurrection. If Jesus' death was only a myth or a symbol (as I think you do believe and as Regnauld espouses) then there's nothing wrong with reincarnation. But if Jesus did live, died, and rose from the dead, then reincarnation can't be true.

"Christ" was the title of the Messiah that was prophesied by the Old Testament prophets, and which Jesus came to be known when he fulfilled those prophecies.

[josephdc]

not exactly sir. there is no sharing of karma. karma is different and distinct on each individual. so, you may help a person, if you want to. your karma sir, is your own.

a sponsoring thought is the thought behind the thought. that is the controlling thought.

But by helping a person, you are really interfering with the consequences of that person's misdeeds, right? Therefore, you are interfering with the karma that is operating in his or her life.