NDF: a terrorist group or not?

[flik]

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Hoi NDF pay your taxes!!!
Why do i consider them a govt?did NDF give any benifit to us?
were they there when most of countrymen needed help?stop fighting for those stupid principles what we need now is food and employment.
if say you can provide that well then i can consider you a govt.you can even have support...

[gareb]

tolstoi:

well i guess we need to size up our definition of fear/terror thenÂ* Â*..mothers terrorizing little children about abat is totally different from an NPA rebels terrorizing a certain individual to pay revolutionary tax..the latter has a greater magnitude when it comes to fear becoz it involves life and death situation while the former is plainly kid's stuff

please do not take my statements out of context. the provided situation regarding a mother 'terrorizing' a child was given as an example if we define terrorism only as merely "FEAR on the aggrieved individual" (your own words). you can nitpick and you can split hairs, but what i'll say is this. from the perspective of the child, it is not merely 'kid's stuff' but a matter of life and death too. we can argue this but what will come out is that "FEAR on the aggrieved individual" will unquestionably sit comfortably with the mother-child example, despite the fact that it is less serious than a revolutionary government asking you for tax or else face the consequences.

what i find very interesting is the fact that you seem to miss my example with regards to the BIR. it is a serious 'grown-up' matter, and "FEAR on the aggrieved individual" is also present with its threats of property confiscation and/or imprisonment as a consequence of non-compliance. if we do not include mere 'kid's stuff' in our definition of terror, then why did you fail to mention the BIR? exceptionalism?

your imperative suggestion on including 'violence perpetrated against civilians' as main clause for terrorism fits well on NDF's act like collecting revolutionary tax bcoz the mere thoughts of burning a property if a person is unable to pay is a clear act of violence..

again, this is NOT my definition of 'terrorism' but the United Nations' through the 1987 Geneva Declaration on Terrorism. i follow international law's definitions, not the arbitrary definitions that fit to the needs of either GRP or the United States government. i follow the definition laid out by an international institution that does not have anything to gain whether the GRP or the NDF would win; a definition that has been laid out YEARS even before this issue erupted.

the mere thought of incarcerating someone if he/she cannot pay BIR's tax can also be considered violence. also is the mere thought of confiscation of property. in the case of the NDF, confiscation to be burned. either laws of GRP or NDF are not without violence against persons or property especially when it comes to punitive acts. but they key phrase here, according to the Geneva Declaration, is "indiscriminate and horrifying forms of violence directed against ordinary people".

it is not an offset to the governments way of collecting taxes as what you suppose because tax offender will be treated fairly and squarely for he/she will have a day in court..and also the amount of dread felt by a tax offender is very different to a person who can't pay a revolutionary tax..go figure

if you want to witness court proceedings and/or related issues with regards regards no non-compliance of revolutionary tax collections, then better go and contact the NDF if they actually have due process before you go on assuming that they dont.

that means equating it to kidnapping as you say is false.

by 'kidnapping' i mean the propaganda that would come out of the GRP if ever the NDF exercises to take into custody certain offenders under its laws.

wow when i searched the Palparan thing in google like you suggest, all top ten searches belongs to an NDF related sitesÂ*
how about reading the other side of the story about Gen. Palparan's offensive in Samar

a pity you only looked at the first ten. please also take time to browse the following:

www.philsol.nl/A06a/PAHRA-EJExecutions-jan06.htm+palparan+human+rights+violations&hl=en&g l=ph&ct=clnk&cd=26]Philippine European Solidarity Centre (PESC-KSP) [/url]
www.uspg.org.uk/news/news_naylor.php+palparan+human+rights+violations&h l=en&gl=ph&ct=clnk&cd=28]United Society for the Propagation of the Gospel (USPG)[/url]
www.minesandcommunities.org/Action/action54.htm+palparan+human+rights+violations&hl=e n&gl=ph&ct=clnk&cd=23]Mines & Communities[/url]
www.rghr.net/mainfile.php/0701/944/+palparan+human+rights+violations&hl=en&gl=ph&ct=c lnk&cd=30]Asian Human Rights Commission[/url] (2)
Newsflash.org
Global Minisrtries
www.pcusa.org/worldwide/philippines/TeamReport-EasternVisay.pdf+palparan+human+rights+violations& hl=en&gl=ph&ct=clnk&cd=39]Presbyterian Church USA[/url]
www.congress.gov.ph/legis/print_journal.php%3Fcongress%3D13%26id%3D112+palpa ran+human+rights+violations&hl=en&gl=ph&ct=clnk&cd =69]Philippine Congress - Journal of the House (of Representatives)[/url]
www.sunstar.com.ph/blogs/citizenwatch/%3Fpage_id%3D204+palparan+human+rights+violations& hl=en&gl=ph&ct=clnk&cd=72]GMA Impeachment Complaint[/url]

and no less than that story by Inquirer supplied this as its last sentence.

In Samar, Bishop Jose Palma of the Calbayog City Diocese based in Samar appealed to Palparan to stop what he called the "gripping fear that has descended [on] Samar."

a news story on that here. the full text of the Pastoral Letter on the said issue here.

by saying 'small sacrifices' no less than Palparan himself admitted that he did those killings. now, following your definition or the UN's, are these not 'acts of terrorism'?

bcasabee:

makaayo ba sa nasud nga naay 2 or more governments competing each other in one location? If not, asa imong i prefer, NDF or GRP?

most definitely not. that is why there is (was) a peace process to settle differences. a peace process that was abruptly cut short with the GRP's betrayal of the Hague Joint Statement regarding 'confidence building measures'.

what would i prefer? i've answered that in the last part of my first comment on this page.

franlkin:

whether we like the fact or not, they have a territory. certain areas in the hinterlands, if not fully controlled, are at least under the influence of the CPP-NPA-NDF. that is precisely why such measures as the 'anti-insurgency' program are being employed by no other than the GRP's AFP.

[flik]

so you are saying that we are just going to tolerate these acts because its not classified as an of terrorism accdg to the United Nations definition of terrorism?So if in that case we will burn buses and attack cell site installation just revolutionary taxes.do you think it is helping us?would that increase our economy?and that so called revolutionary tax that they are collecting brought any benifit to ordinary citizens?did that employ millions of unemployed people in which every year rises in statistics? let my ignorant mind be cleared on these...

[franklin]

whether we like the fact or not, they have a territory. certain areas in the hinterlands, if not fully controlled, are at least under the influence of the CPP-NPA-NDF. that is precisely why such measures as the 'anti-insurgency' program are being employed by no other than the GRP's AFP

what? its their territory? those lands are in the phillipine territory, the government owned those lands. they are just squatters. do they have a proof that they own those lands? and is their so called territory recognized by the international communty?
these terrorists should have secured kawit island, protect it at all cost and call it their territory. then they can start doing their robbery style collection of taxes and apply their terroristic police power

[gareb]

flik:

so you are saying that we are just going to tolerate these acts

dont presume and do not take it out of context please.

what i am saying, is that under United Nations' declarations, the NDF is not a terrorist organization. that is not the same as telling you that if you go and burn buses and collect revolutioanry tax, it's perfectly alright. and you cannot find me saying anywhere that this war is helping the economy, or that revolutionary tax is helping employ millions.

it is precisely because of this that the war should end peacefully through the peace process. unfortunately this has been stalled by this 'terrorist tagging' of the GRP.

franlkin:

what? its their territory? those lands are in the phillipine territory, the government owned those lands. they are just squatters. do they have a proof that they own those lands? and is their so called territory recognized by the international communty?
these terrorists should have secured kawit island, protect it at all cost and call it their territory. then they can start doing their robbery style collection of taxes and apply their terroristic police power

this is not about "owning" land, but "control". mind you this is not an issue about land ownership sir, but and issue of contending governments within a state, each claiming right to it. please do not reduce the NDF or the MILF to the level of the Abu Sayaff or the Pentagon Gang as they are absolutely diffrent from each other. this, so far, has been the (intended) error of the GRP; the blanket label of all armed groups as 'terrorists'. and it seems that you fell for it too.

theÂ* international community recognizes the existence of the NDF (and the MILF), along with that is the fact that certain parts of the philippines is under its control. the Dutch government, as well as the Royal Norweigian Government as a third party facilitator in the peace talks, acknowledges this. so does the European Union which issued resolutions commending the milestone Hague Joint Declaration and the CARHIHL

[FK]

burning buses for me are one of the abuses of the NDF... just the like the abuses of the police and the military.

[gareb]

burning buses for me are one of the abuses of the NDF... just the like the abuses of the police and the military.

perhaps. if we speak of abuses, i'll take burning buses anyday instead of military with-hunts that results to hundreds of deaths all over the country, only if there would be NO innocent civilians inside those burning buses.

at least burning buses can more or less be justified as an excersise of police power, but witch-hunts are simply indefensible.

[bcasabee]

The NDFs are using human shields man sad gud.....innocent civilians....ka looy....kung walay NDF do you think ang military i spread out? Dili uy, adto na sila ibutang sa baraks mag practice sa ilang skills, manggawas lang na sila sa barracks kung naay security threats...Unsaon naa may NDF so dili pud kalikayan nga mo spread out ang military...suma total...kung dili mo ganahan nga ang military mo spread out....wagtanga nang NPA.....simple as that....

With regards to buses? kung manunog ta ug bus? kinsa may mohatud sa mga na stranded nga pasahero sa ilang destination? kinsay mo alam alam sa mga na lisang nga mga pasahero? Ang NPA?

burning buses for me are one of the abuses of the NDF... just the like the abuses of the police and the military.

perhaps. if we speak of abuses, i'll take burning buses anyday instead of military with-hunts that results to hundreds of deaths all over the country, only if there would be NO innocent civilians inside those burning buses.

at least burning buses can more or less be justified as an excersise of police power, but witch-hunts are simply indefensible.

[franklin]

it is precisely because of this that the war should end peacefully through the peace process. unfortunately this has been stalled by this 'terrorist tagging' of the GRP.

i dont think this war will end by peaceful means. these rebels are hindrance to our country's success so they should be crushed because they are traitors.

the Â*international community recognizes the existence of the NDF (and the MILF), along with that is the fact that certain parts of the philippines is under its control. the Dutch government, as well as the Royal Norweigian Government as a third party facilitator in the peace talks, acknowledges this. so does the European Union which issued resolutions commending the milestone Hague Joint Declaration and the CARHIHL

i agree with you that these communities recognize their existence, maybe the milf has a territory but the ndf? i dont think so. A former classmate of mine who is living in samboan told me that rebels are asking taxes from them. their place is not far from the municipality so, does this say that samboan is a part of their territory? the reason why these poeple are hiding like rats because they dont have a real territory. they are the ones who spread fear and misery to the poor people

[FK]

In war... the real victims are the civilians, each side claiming they are right.

and with regards to the topic... if the targets are not direct to the civilians who are not their enemy, then I believe it is not terrorism.