Atheism Vs. Religion

[The_Child]

@ The Child: So bro you're saying that the Crusade was caused by both Religion and Secular motives?

the crusade is cause between the reciprocity of religion and non-religious motives. Religion served only as a form, a shell, a front, in which non-religious and secular motives assume. Without religion, this motives would not be acceptable, without secular motives the crusades as purely religious would not also happen.

and the guy stating the spanish inquisition with a preliminary: for the record, also needs to clarify things lest he falls in the same pit, many atheists in this forum have.

[The_Child]

^see the significance of religion used as a TOOL.

just like guns. guns dont kill people, people kill people. you cant blame a gun for doing what its supposed to do.

you have knack for oversimplified analogies.

How you compared a hand held device which can be engineered by a single person, to a complex system such as religious institutions which uses inter-disciplinary depth to understand significantly its phenomenon.

[munzter666]

^take it in "hindsight".

TOOL doesnt really imply a hand held device of sorts.

[The_Child]

^take it in "hindsight".

enigmatic. does it actually mean anything?

[munzter666]

i suppose.

[The_Child]

cheers to that i guess.

[bcasabee]

Whats with the tool? Everything can be used as a tool depending on ones ingenuity. Even garbage can be recycled into a useful tool. A cow dung a fertilizer. Atoms as energy source. As for religion, as I said, it really depend on ones ingenuity. Well, using it to destroy others is one used of it, unfortunately, there are those who are really stupid who can't really think of other uses of it(religion) besides destroying others.

[Mortred KunaiSpinner]

@The Child: Hmm I like your answer... Very nice...

[Traditz]

whoa whoa whoa....if you read carefully in hitler's own speeches..he was never an atheist...he was a christian..actually he never confirmed whether he's a sincere christian or athiest...please don't argue with me about hitler's religious alignment..he was..if not a catholic but a theist...why he always refer to god as his sole commander in delivering the german nation out of shame and from the clutches of bolshevism and jewry..and when he was attempted to be assasinated he CLEARLY states that divine providence has helped him to live...please that's a common mistake...even though hitler killed millions HE WASN'T AN ATHEIST...his killing the jews was never rooted on religion but rather of race and racial superiority...he firmly believed that his crusade was blessed by god...please look it up para dli ka ma mislead...if you think atheism is a violent ideal then you are wrong my friend.

I didn't mention Hitler. I guess you're right, Hitler was probably not an atheist. It's a bit complex, it's difficult to pin down what Hitler's religious views really were. On the one hand he was born a Christian, and as you pointed out, he used words like "I am doing the Lord's work" in his public speeches. On the other hand, he was very much hostile to religion, or Christianity in particular. One historian, Max Dimont, even wrote that Hitler actually persecuted 7 million Christians during the war years. So you have people claiming he is a Christian, and pointing out Hitler's references to himself as a Christian, or a man of God, yet his actions towards Christians were hostile, in fact lethal.

Another thing, his idea of Christianity and portrayal of Jesus is so radically different from the traditional understanding of Christianity and Jesus. I mean, I don't think any Christian today would recognize Hitler's idea of Christianity, and his picture of Jesus as an Aryan and a warrior who hated Jews.

I think that Hitler's idea of Christianity is just so radically different from the traditional understanding that it barely has any resemblance to it; I guess we can even say that it's a gross distortion. And judging by Hitler's actions, the bloody trail that he has left during his rule, can anyone really say, or even hint at the idea, that Hitler was a Christian? The stark contrast between Jesus, who lived humbly and taught peace and love and died violently because of injustice, and Hitler, who almost considered himself as a god, who brutally wiped out millions of people, Jews and Christians alike, is just so glaring that it makes no sense to call him a Christian.

in my last post i am not implying that we should blame christianity..when in truth it teaches love and stuff but instead we should look up on HOW this doctrines ARE TAUGHT to the people since they still commited horrifying acts...please don't ever assume that atheism is a warlike ideal..even though communism or any other form of fascist government who does assume the stance of atheism means that they are bad or capable of killing...

I guess one of the answers to that that the faith proposes is that human nature is fallen because of original sin. We all have a tendency to do bad things.

I agree with you that atheism itself as a world view is not violent. I highly respect people who hold that view, even if I may not often agree with them. But let us not forget, and someone here correctly said that it's been tossed around in debates often enough, that some of the greatest mass murderers in human history considered themselves atheists, too. Again, I'm not saying at all that atheism per se leads to violence. I'm just pointing out that obvious fact.

atheism can also thrive in non-violent form of governance..

The same is true with Christianity.

problema gani dinha is nganong gbuhat ghapon...how did cruelty, injustice and violence thrive in a religion that is founded by love and hope..perhaps it may not be the teaching but the people who received the teaching

I believe that's because, as one priest put it, something is fundamentally wrong with us. It just confirms the Christian teaching that we are sinners.

and one last thing how can you say so confidently that hitler's killings were more than the killings done by the CRUSADES and INQUISITION...please huna2x pila ka years ang WWII?..started in '39 ended in '45 so 6 years?...and since modern times naman na..well documented ang patay...pero huna2x wat year ang crusades and pila ka years ang span ana..and of course pila kabuok crusades ang gbuhat?...and most of the deaths are undocumented wla pa nai labot sa inquisition....so kinsa mas daghang napatay?...si hitler or ang christian empire and the muslim empire?..don't create such sweeping statements bro..unless imong giihap mismo ang patay sa crusades

Sorry if I made any sweeping statements.

I don't really see the point of comparing the number of deaths, murder is murder, even a single death is one death too many. But I really believe that the deaths under Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot far, far exceeds the numbers in the Inquisition, Crusades and the "Witch Hunts" put together. It's probably tens and tens of millions vs. a couple hundred thousands. That proportion is just staggering, even considering the fact that there were many undocumented deaths during the Inquisition and the Crusades. I can cite some authors and give some approximate numbers, but again I think it's not good to compare.

Why not blame God? He has the power to stop it. Or is it because he is just an imaginary being. Think about it.

If God is only an imaginary being, can we still condemn those atrocities as evil? I mean, if we assume that there is such a thing as "evil," aren't we assuming that there is such a thing as "good"? Not just a subjective good, but an objective one?

yes not literally, but still i give it to the mysteries of how the brain/mind works.

Even our minds are constantly hungry for information, for knowledge, for truth. As what Fr. Robert Barron said, "What does every seeker of truth know? That the more he knows, the more he knows that he don't know." He said that our minds are constantly seeking for that unconditioned truth; meaning truth that is absolute, and somehow it eludes us in life. We want to know everything about everything, but we are never satisfied. He said that God is that unconditioned truth, because He is truth Itself, and only in Him can our minds or intellects find its fulfillment.

do note that man is an INSATIABLE being. and there is a difference between knowing and not knowing. we cant have everything we want or like...DESIRES. and sometimes that defines the boundaries between wishful thinking and reality. happiness, satisfaction are all RELATIVE terms. hey, one man's fun is another's hell.

That is the quandary of our human experience, we are insatiable creatures. Perhaps what we are really looking for is not to be found in this world?

its no use weighing which camp has more Ahol*s and shitness within them. far greater than the crusades/inquisitions...sorry to disappoint, but the atheistic population back then and still is LESSER compared to theistic centered beliefs.

One author, Dinesh D'Souza, pointed out that even taking into account the population levels in the 1950s and the 15th century or earlier centuries AD, "atheist violence surpasses religious violence by staggering proportions."

here's another irony, put up all those atheistic "atrocities" or what evers...those guys took full responsibility/accountability for their actions no matter how crazy nor stupid it was.

now take a look at those theistic "atrocities" or what evers...those guys kept pointing "god did it" / "it was will of god"/ "our cause is god's cause"...full responsibility/accountability? i dont think so. cowardice? hypocrisy? in the end these guys still blamed god or dragged god with them.

Maybe some, but not all. Pope John Paul II back in 2000 at least apologized for those horrific crimes which involved the Church in the past.

[regnauld]

Is atheism fundamentally evil?