Proposition 8 / Same *** marriage

[rodsky]

makes me wonder why lotsa kids turn out gay or lesbo when they grow up.. cos they happened to lived with one! i've known a few friends since childhood who were bullies in school but ended up "soft" when they decided to have same-*** relationship or when their community had one too many of the gray ones.. meaning, natakdan.

you can say what you wanna say, but my guts says this whole same-*** marriage is downright wrong..

damn these morals! damn this sense of right and wrong!

Basically, people simply fear and loathe what they don't want, cannot accept, or don't understand. It's normal.

A lot of people are prisoners of their own mind. They are not truly free. But as Erich Fromm said, some people don't want to be free, because the very idea of having no walls or posts to hold on to or close in on them (i.e. freedom) is a frightening prospect to them. Thus, most people simply want to "escape from freedom" and chose a more rigid way of life--for them, that's how they define life.

I'm not going to argue about this anymore. If a person wants a rigid construct of a life, full of societal norms and whatnot, then by all means, let them live it. I don't think I'll lose any sleep over it.

-RODION

[bcasabee]

You are just thinking too much bro. We don't necessarily hate our friends, relatives and neighbors just because of the things they're doing, though we may not like what they're doing.

Ok, teach me a basic morality lesson, if you don't mind.

Point out to me which one is wrong and which one is proper?
1.) Two married black man sodomizing each other.
2.) A black-man husband having normal *** with his white-woman wife?

Back then, having a black man and a white woman going out was unacceptable. Black people going to school with white people was also "wrong". Not having a slave was against "common sense". Now, I'm not putting both histories on the same page, I am only pointing out the common factor of both, hate.

[goryo13]

Chuck Norris wrote this one... enlightening!



Protestors of Proposition 8 in California (the marriage amendment) shoved aside a 69-year-old woman who was bearing a cross. They reportedly spit on her and stomped on her cross. They then aligned themselves in a human barricade, blocking the media from getting to or interviewing the woman.

Prop. 8 supporter Jose Nunez, 37, was assaulted brutally while distributing yard signs to other supporters after church services at the St. Stanislaus Parish in Modesto.

Calvary Chapel Chino Hills was spray painted by vandals after they learned that the church served as an official collection point for Prop. 8 petitions.

Letters containing white powder (obviously mimicking anthrax) were sent to the Salt Lake City headquarters of the Mormon church and to a temple in Los Angeles. (Thankfully, the FBI said the substance was nontoxic.)

The 25-year artistic director of the California Musical Theatre, who also happens to be a Mormon, was muscled to resign because of his $1,000 donation to the campaign to ban gay marriage in California.

A pro-homosexual, pro-anarchy organization named Bash Back marched into the middle of a church service and flung fliers and condoms to the congregants. They also hung a banner from the balcony that featured two lesbians in provocative positions at the pulpit.

And lastly, the tolerance-preaching activists also have taken their anger to the blogosphere, where posts have planted ideas ranging from burning churches to storming the citadels of government until our society is forced to overturn Prop. 8. You even can find donor blacklists online. The lists include everyone who financially backed Prop. 8 -- even those who gave as little as $46 -- with the obvious objective that these individuals will be bantered and boycotted for doing so.

What's wrong with this picture? Lots.

First, there's the obvious inability of the minority to accept the will of the majority. Californians have spoken twice, through the elections in 2000 and 2008. Nearly every county across the state (including Los Angeles County) voted to amend the state constitution in favor of traditional marriage.

Nevertheless, bitter activists simply cannot accept the outcome as being truly reflective of the general public. So they have placed the brainwashing blame upon the crusading and misleading zealotry of those religious villains: the Catholics, evangelical Protestants, and especially Mormons, who allegedly are robbing the rights of American citizens by merely executing their right to vote and standing upon their moral convictions and traditional views.

What's surprising (or maybe not so) is that even though 70 percent of African-Americans voted in favor of Proposition 8, protests against black churches are virtually nonexistent. And everyone knows exactly why: Such actions would be viewed as racist. Yet these opponents of Prop. 8 can protest vehemently and shout obscenities in front of Mormon temples without ever being accused of religious bigotry. There's a clear double standard in our society. Where are the hate-crime cops when religious conservatives need them?

There were many of us who passionately opposed Obama, but you don't see us protesting in the streets or crying "unfair." Rather, we are submitting to a democratic process and now asking how we can support "our" president. Just because we don't like the election outcome doesn't give us the right to bully those who oppose us. In other words, if democracy doesn't tip our direction, we don't swing to anarchy. That would be like the Wild West, the resurrection of which seems to be happening in these postelection protests.

I agree with Prison Fellowship's founder, Chuck Colson, who wrote: "This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of us! How dare they threaten and attack political opponents? We live in a democratic country, not a banana republic ruled by thugs."

Regardless of one's opinion of Proposition 8, it is flat-out wrong and un-American to intimidate and harass individuals, churches and businesses that are guilty of nothing more than participating in the democratic process. Political protests are one thing, but when old-fashioned bullying techniques are used that restrict voting liberties and even prompt fear of safety, activists have crossed a line. There is a difference between respectfully advocating one's civil rights and demanding public endorsement of what many still consider to be unnatural sexual behavior through cruel coercion and repression tactics. One thing is for sure: The days of peaceful marches, such as those headed up by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., seem to be long gone.

The truth is that the great majority of Prop. 8 advocates are not bigots or hatemongers. They are American citizens who are following 5,000 years of human history and the belief of every major people and religion: Marriage is a sacred union between a man and a woman. Their pro-Prop. 8 votes weren't intended to deprive any group of its rights; they were safeguarding their honest convictions regarding the boundaries of marriage.

On Nov. 4, the pro-gay community obviously was flabbergasted that a state that generally leans left actually voted right when it came to holy matrimony. But that's exactly what happened; the majority of Californians -- red, yellow, black and white -- voted to define the margins of marriage as being between one man and one woman. California is the 30th state in our union to amend its constitution in doing so, joining Florida and Arizona in this election. Like it or not, it's the law now. The people have spoken.

[bcasabee]

Of course its yuck and its an abnormality. How do you find men sodomizing each other? Sexy and yummy? It will even make puke with mere thoughts. I won't expose my child to such acts because its abnormal and its way dumber than the crowd mentality.

You underestimate the analytical powers of a child. Children form their own truths, and the only reason why they would see such acts as abnormal because they see some older person say "YUCK!" or "Evil!"...if a child is allowed to see such an act, yet the child is fully aware of his/her own heterosexuality, I believe the child will grow up to be a normally heterosexual individual. Ang may kasalanan ng pagkakalito nila ay yung mga adults nga mga makikitid ang ulo at puro nalang "YUCK!" at "Malaswa!" ang sinasabi (bakit? kasi they got this atttitude from observing other "makitid" adults when they were young too!), kaya ginagaya ng mga bata at tuloy, twisted na ang kanilang isipan kasi hindi sila nabigyan ng pagkakataon to formulate their own conclusions about what they see.

Kids are inherently smart, because humans, by nature (and moreso as individuals) are inherently smart. It's the crowd mentality that makes humans dumb.

-RODION

[diatabz]

You are just thinking too much bro. We don't necessarily hate our friends, relatives and neighbors just because of the things they're doing, though we may not like what they're doing.

Ok, teach me a basic morality lesson, if you don't mind.

Point out to me which one is wrong and which one is proper?
1.) Two married black man sodomizing each other.
2.) A black-man husband having normal *** with his white-woman wife?

You might not hate them, but you still think homosexuality is deviant behavior. Not much difference there. As for your lesson, try asking that question 50 years ago, you'd be surprised at the responses you would get.

[mannyamador]

The same slippery-slope logic you're using now can be also used for interracial marriage.

You make two errors. 1: The facts about God separating the races aren't true (the races intermingled even in Biblical times). 2: More important, interracial marriage does not violate the purpose of marriage unlike same-*** marriages do. My argument for heterosexual marriage has a qualifier: biological necessity. Same-*** marriage do not meet this criteria and is based only on sexual orientation (just like pedophile, incestuous, etc. marriages). You are now making true slippery slope arguments, I am not. I have shown that the logic and justification is the same; you have not, as illustrated above.

Sorry, but it's apparent you were trying to back up the claim of "knowing more than I do" by trying to impress me with your citizenship. It didn't work. You know as well as I do that the "I/you clearly know more than you/I do" bit is just a pissing contest.

In any case we're just repeating old arguments that have been aired countless times during the run-up to the vote on Proposition 8. I know where to find your type of argument online (lots of versions), just as you know where Protect Marriage.Com and the sites airing the other side are.

If ever you want to look at my own personal versions of some of these arguments (I don't claim them to be original), they are at:

My own blog:
The Absurdity of Same-*** Marriage PHNix Network Advocate

On Helium.Com (but the URL may be subject to change)
Marriage should be a sacred institution between only a woman and a man - by Manny Amador - Helium


@rodsky

A lot of people are prisoners of their own mind. They are not truly free. But as Erich Fromm said, some people don't want to be free, because the very idea of having no walls or posts to hold on to or close in on them (i.e. freedom) is a frightening prospect to them.

This is most aptly applied to you. You make up justifications for your own prejudices because you are afraid to embrace the truth, which will set you free. Wake up and find some real arguments instead of resorting to ad hominem ones. Making nasty characterizations of your opponents doesn't make you right. but it does make you look unreasonable.

[diatabz]

Of course its yuck and its an abnormality. How do you find a black man married to a white woman? Sexy and yummy? It will even make puke with mere thoughts. I won't expose my child to such acts because its abnormal and its way dumber than the crowd mentality.

Fixed. You just nailed it in the head.

[mannyamador]

You might not hate them, but you still think homosexuality is deviant behavior. Not much difference there.

Now that's a clear error right there. Acknowledging that someone has deviant (or even sinful) behavior is VERY DIFFERENT from hating them. ALL people are sinners, and if we follow your logic, that would mean I hate them all. Bad logic.

There is a difference between condemning a person's actions and condemning a person.

Christians believe that Jesus judged and condemned actions, but He forgave the repentant sinners. He asked us to do the same: Hate the sin, love the sinner. Consequently, we do not accept homosexual acts, but we do not condemn homosexuals and, in fact, acknowledge that they too are called to holiness.

[diatabz]

Now that's a clear error right there. Acknowledging that someone has deviant (or even sinful) behavior is VERY DIFFERENT from hating them. ALL people are sinners, and if we follow your logic, that would mean I hate them all. Bad logic.

There is a difference between condemning a person's actions and condemning a person.

Christians believe that Jesus judged and condemned actions, but He forgave the repentant sinners. He asked us to do the same: Hate the sin, love the sinner. Consequently, we do not accept homosexual acts, but we do not condemn homosexuals and, in fact, acknowledge that they too are called to holiness.

You're comparing apples and oranges. As with most conservatives, you make it sound as if homosexuality is a choice. What a homosexual does is a part of his/her nature. Prejudice against blacks was due to their color, not what they did. Same thing goes for homosexuality. They're abhorred because of what they are, not what they do.

[bcasabee]

Tsk tsk tsk. I thought you guys want freedom, but you can't even face those questions. Please bro, don't try to escape from a simple question. You can only have freedom, if you face and answer questions, not escape them. At least be honest and say, you don't have the answer instead of referring me to ask people from 50 years ago. Your freedom will not be given in a silver platter, you first have to answer questions the hard way.

Now what is right and proper?

1. Two men sodomizing each other
2. A husband having normal *** with his wife?

You might not hate them, but you still think homosexuality is deviant behavior. Not much difference there. As for your lesson, try asking that question 50 years ago, you'd be surprised at the responses you would get.