Proposition 8 / Same *** marriage

[seven_segment]

During my retreat before, naay madre mi ingon namo nga ok ra being gay or lesbian. And dili ok is ang ilaha buhaton nga dirty acts

yah...St Francis of Assissi, it think was babayehinon...but he lived a moral life...

St. Joan of Arc, i think naa pud siya gamay pagka lakin-on...yet she lived a moral life...

One of the essence of marriage is to procreate...

[rodsky]

yah...St Francis of Assissi, it think was babayehinon...but he lived a moral life...

St. Joan of Arc, i think naa pud siya gamay pagka lakin-on...yet she lived a moral life...

One of the essence of marriage is to procreate...

You don't need to get married to procreate.

Just think of all those people who were born outside of wedlock--I bet those of you who were born into a family who's mothers and fathers were married feel superior than "illegitimate" children. Just imagine, how these other children felt while growning up? They feel shunned, scorned, humiliated by society, for what? Just because the church and God declared them "products of immorality"? They don't have the right to live anymore, is that it?

Kaya ang sama ng tingin ng ibang tawo sa church eh, konting mali lang sa tawo, eh condemned to hell na kaagad. Ang dami-daming opportunidad sa mundong ito, sa bawat tao nga gipanganak nga tawo. Wag naman sana na ang attitudes natin eh gustong nating ipagkait sa mga tao ang kanilang mga rights to live a life, because they were born as human beings, regardless of whether they were born in a "marriage" or not.

Ang sasarap ng feeling ninyo kumot ipinanganak kayo na may married parents--for that alone, mas garantisado ba kayong pupunta sa langit kaysa doon sa mga illegitimate? Aber?

-RODION

[mannyamador]

You don't need to get married to procreate.

You do need to get married to do it properly. Procreation is more than just having children, it's also about raising them in some kind of relatively stable environment. Families provide this for most people. Complete and complementary couples provide families. Same-*** couples cannot bear children and it can be argued that they generally do not provide the same kind of stable environment in general.

Just because the church and God declared them "products of immorality"? They don't have the right to live anymore, is that it?

This has nothing to do with the issue. No one says they are lesser human beings because of that. But statisticaslly children from broken families tend to have more problems. That is the reality.

The bottom line, however, is that the justifications for same-*** marriage are the same justifications for all other types of "marriage". If you allow one, you logically have to allow the others. This will render marriage meaningless and ultimately destroy it and families as well.

[cottonmouth]

[Find time to read below the excerpt from Larry King Live about this same *** couple. If you think what this people are doing is not sick; you're probably in the wrong world.]

Quote:

CNN) -- Thomas Beatie, known as "the pregnant man," was interviewed Monday by CNN's Larry King. Joining Thomas was his wife, Nancy. Thomas gave birth in July to the couple's first child, Susan, and now they're expecting again.


The following is an edited transcript of the interview.

Larry King: Thomas and Nancy, welcome. Congratulations. How is it going?

Thomas Beatie: Good, thank you.

King: Are you surprised at all of this attention, or did you expect it?

Thomas: Honestly, we are quite surprised. We naively thought that we were going to be able to get away with me giving birth without anyone knowing. Watch the couple's interview with Larry King »

King: Let's break it down so we understand the story. You were a woman, right? You were a woman? You now call yourself a man. You were born a female?

Thomas: Yes.

King: How did you two meet?

Thomas: We met at a gym 18 years ago, at a gym in Hawaii. Almost 18 years ago.

King: How long have you been together?

Nancy: Eleven, going on 12.

Thomas: Yes, going on 11. We've been married for going on six.

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King: Obviously, you look like a man. You are a man. Did you go through surgeries?

Thomas: Chest reconstruction surgery. And I've had hormone treatment.

King: So you are a man to yourself?

Thomas: Yes.

King: How did the idea come about that he/she should get pregnant?

Nancy: Well, we both wanted to start a family. I had a hysterectomy. So we thought about adopting and all of these other options, but who better to carry our baby than him? Hear Larry King's take on this show »

King: So how did it -- how was it done?

Nancy: Well, we had to get -- we got a donor. And we did it at home. I did it.

King: You did it? The donor denotes the sperm?

Nancy: Right. We ordered the sperm and it came to our house. I put it in a syringe without a needle.

King: And injected it?

Nancy: Yes.

King: So you never had any work done in the lower parts that would change that part?

Thomas: Just from what testosterone does naturally.

King: Did he get pregnant right out of the box?

Nancy: Right. Basically.

King: He's pregnant now, right? How did you know how to do that?

Thomas: We had to look that stuff up online. We had a difficult time finding a physician to help us. We found a physician to finally sign for a sperm bank, and that's how we could do it at home. But we did look the stuff up online.

King: Why didn't you adopt?

Thomas: That's a viable option and we did consider it. I have a very real need to pass down my genes, so we were going to try that first and then look into surrogacy. But we would have had a lot of problems with surrogacy, because we would need fertility endocrinologists to help out.

Nancy: We wanted to have our baby.

King: What was it like giving birth, Thomas?

Thomas: Wow. It's an experience you can't quite -- you just can't describe it to someone else who hasn't gone through it. It's a life-changing experience for sure.

King: Did you run into legal problems at all?

Thomas: We have actually with her birth certificate.

King: What does it say?

Thomas: Well, I filled it out as me father, Nancy mother, and they changed it last minute, and they put her as father and me as mother. And then they changed it again and put us as parents. That's fine and dandy, but we don't have a domestic partnership. We're not a same-*** marriage. We're legal man and wife.

King: That's a big difference.

Thomas: Yes. One part of the government recognizes me as male and, now with our baby's birth certificate, there's a conflict. So we're really concerned that it's going to jeopardize our future.

King: What would happen if, God forbid, you pass away? Would somebody fight over this baby?

Thomas: It's very likely. That's what I'm very afraid of and that's why we need help. We need an attorney to help us make it right.

King: When you met, were you -- what kind of couple were you?

Thomas: A normal couple.

King: What I meant was did you consider yourself gay?

Thomas: No. We -- I lived my life as a woman at that point. Legally, I was female. But inside I still felt male. So the way other people perceived us, they saw us as a lesbian couple.

King: Do you feel gay?

Nancy: I don't feel gay.

King: So you feel you're married to a man?

Nancy: Yes.

King: Completely?

Nancy: Yes. Even when he was pregnant, he was still a man to me.

King: What kind of birth was it?

Thomas: It was natural birth.

King: Not Cesarean?

Thomas: No, it was rumored that it was. But it wasn't.

King: You looking forward to the next one? How far along are you now?

Thomas: I am ten weeks.

King: Same donor?

Thomas: Same donor.

King: Where did you learn how to do this? From the Internet, you said, right. You can't have the normal kind of intercourse, right?

Thomas: We can.

King: Oh.

Nancy: Not to make a baby.

Thomas: Because of hormones, my -- my clitoris has enlarged and it looks like a *****. I can have intercourse with my wife.

King: That's fascinating to me. I didn't know that. So you have a clitoris that looks likes a ***** so it can fit into having love relations?

Thomas: Basically.

Nancy: I'm the mother.

Thomas: I'm the father.

King: Is this the end of the baby sphere? This baby going to be the last?


Nancy: We don't know yet. We haven't decided.

King: The two of you, really, I think you're terrific. I think what you've done is not the easiest thing in the world and especially to come forward. You have a beautiful little daughter. I wish you nothing but the best. All right.

[diatabz]

What's really unsettling is the way a State Constitution can be amended so easily. 52% of the vote? That's not enough for a constitutional amendment. The U.S. constitution requires 2/3's of both houses and 75 percent of the states. Reason for that is to prevent frequent changes. Well, even if this upheld, the California Supreme Court will just trash Proposition 8, just like 22.

The argument that other types of marriage should then be legalized is flawed. Beastiality brings about a ridiculous number of diseases. Same thing goes for incest, the genetic problems that could arise as a result is something the state won't ignore. But then again, our society is an evolving one, who knows right?

No, this issue is about discrimination, prejudice and what people think is immoral. Why, just here in the thread the words "immoral, luod, evil, sinners" are being thrown around. God doesn't even need to be invoked in civil unions. It saddens me that gay couples have to deal with the hassles of the IRS and Social Security when a civil union could make things so much easier for them.

Lastly, the majority isn't always right. Look up segragation, slavery, and the history of marriage between black and white people.

[rodsky]

This has nothing to do with the issue. No one says they are lesser human beings because of that. But statisticaslly children from broken families tend to have more problems. That is the reality.

You don't get it--the reason why they TEND to have MORE problems is because SOCIETY and the CHURCH tells them they are the product of EVIL deeds. Now, if ikaw nagdako ka nga gibombard by a society that thinks you are EVIL, unsa man imong huna-huna bi?

There are illegitimate children, who were raised in an atmosphere of warmth and caring by other people who were not married too, and they turned out to be good people. Societial pressure is always the main reason why those people who have potential are always shunned and treated like dirt.

-RODION

[Dorothea]

^very well said, diatabz...pero ask lang ko, unsay nahitabo adtong mga unions nga gi permit ni SF Mayor Newsom adtong '04? null and void diay to? murag ning apil pa man gani si Rosie O'Donnell adto ug ang iyang partner...

I am for gay civil unions. That's all they ask for anyway. I don't think the LGBT community even dreams of being granted Christian and/or Catholic marriages. They know that won't happen.

[diatabz]

You don't get it--the reason why they TEND to have MORE problems is because SOCIETY and the CHURCH tells them they are the product of EVIL deeds. Now, if ikaw nagdako ka nga gibombard by a society that thinks you are EVIL, unsa man imong huna-huna bi?

So true. We can pretty much end the thread here.

^very well said, diatabz...pero ask lang ko, unsay nahitabo adtong mga unions nga gi permit ni SF Mayor Newsom adtong '04? null and void diay to? murag ning apil pa man gani si Rosie O'Donnell adto ug ang iyang partner...

I am for gay civil unions. That's all they ask for anyway. I don't think the LGBT community even dreams of being granted Christian and/or Catholic marriages. They know that won't happen.

Mao na na ron. I really don't know if valid pa toh. That's more than 15,000 marriages. According to the attorney general, there's a high chance they'll remain valid, but a legal challenge could make it go either way.

[bcasabee]

I am amused with number 1. Though religion can be used to counter this same *** marriage proposal, it need not be. If you are a parent, would you allow your children to see casually two men doing PDA? Its really just common sense. Simbako, ma impluwensiyahan inyong anak tungod sa iyang mga nakit-an. The fact is, its not about religion, but society itself. Majority(believer or athiest) in the society doesn't accept this kind of relationship so this issue shouldn't be forced on the majority. Yeah, equality under the law, but in democracy, the vote that count most, is the winner.

Thing is, most people don't even get what Proposition 8 or Proposition 22 for that matter was all about.

First off, we are referring to the United States, and there is something folks have either overlooked or ignored. I'm referring to the Constitutional privileges and fundamental rights by which America is founded upon:

1. Freedom of religion
2. Equality under the law

Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution or the Bill of Rights is a line that says "gays and lesbians are excluded".

That being said, religious institutions have every right to deny anybody from performing marriage ceremonies under their church, temple etc. even with a marriage certificate provided by the state available. However, marriage isn't a religious title. Civil marriage is a contract or binding agreement between two individuals overseen by an elected official. It's not about a couple having *** nor is it about God.What happens at a church is a ceremony, a religious formality not even required by the State. Proposition 8 ignored a decision made by the California Supreme Court that recognized same *** marriage as a right. Proponents will be pleased to know that Proposition 8 -like Proposition 22- will be seen as a violation of the Constitution once it gets to the California Supreme Court.

[rodsky]

Simbako, ma impluwensiyahan inyong anak tungod sa iyang mga nakit-an.

You underestimate the analytical powers of a child. Children form their own truths, and the only reason why they would see such acts as abnormal because they see some older person say "YUCK!" or "Evil!"...if a child is allowed to see such an act, yet the child is fully aware of his/her own heterosexuality, I believe the child will grow up to be a normally heterosexual individual. Ang may kasalanan ng pagkakalito nila ay yung mga adults nga mga makikitid ang ulo at puro nalang "YUCK!" at "Malaswa!" ang sinasabi (bakit? kasi they got this atttitude from observing other "makitid" adults when they were young too!), kaya ginagaya ng mga bata at tuloy, twisted na ang kanilang isipan kasi hindi sila nabigyan ng pagkakataon to formulate their own conclusions about what they see.

Kids are inherently smart, because humans, by nature (and moreso as individuals) are inherently smart. It's the crowd mentality that makes humans dumb.

-RODION