The theoretical question that will bash down all religion to its knees!

[dulpeks]

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mao ni nindot nga istorya....para sa ila itachi, rcruman og victor3.....wonder why ngano wala sila mo join ani nga thread??....agree ko nimo jollibee...nga ang bible full of bias...asa na man 2ng grbe motuo sa bible??nga word by word jud sa bible ang ila doctrina nag depende.....ADD amn guro 2 sila??

[Sinyalan]

As what I have stated there are hyprocites among Christians and a whole lot of them.
If you call Hitler a Christian its like I dunno how to describe this, be a very religious prostitue?
....just stating a fact, but hey who can argue to a "religious" nut? Just like some nutcases here.

Communism can be considered athiest since they don't allow any forms of religions in their country.
... In their attempt to demonize atheism, many church leaders to this day insist on equating atheism with communism. Just because one is an atheist, it does not follow that they are communists. Mark Twain, Thomas Edison, Luther Burbank, Katherine Hepburn and countless others are known to be atheists, yet no one would call them communists.

Enough of this ridiculous ideas lets all be true Christians and live a life of Love and Charity. Read the Bible study it. Its not a book only for Catholics.
True Christianity is a religion of Love and of Charity. And it all starts when we seek Jesus Christ and accept his free gift of salvation and you have to pay P10,000 to me to be a Christian. teet. There is no obligation to be a Christian to follow Christ it might require donating to your church but come to think of it how can the church run without funds and its even written in the Bible that we ought to give at least tithes(1/10 of our income) to the church and charity. Its even ok if you don't donate to your church.
.... Agree.

[The_Child]

Hitler was a christian... catholic to be exact and had twisted ideals.

Stalin, Kim Jonh Ill and Lenin, Mao are communists in common... since socialism and communism are evil, thus atheism and communism are not the same thing.

being a christian transcends names. You are a christian not with ink, but with your action. Hitler's action, the holocaust, is anything but Christian.

@brown_dog

OH PLEASE!

You better stop before you embarass yourself...

One:
You better stop justifying the existence of GOD with the use of LOGIC - logic is in the realm of science... You want to debate against science witht the use of Logic ? YOULL GET OWNED! ... Its like a boxer wanting to Swordfight a Swordmaster!

Religion and God = chief requirement : FAITH
Science = chief requirement : LOGIC

Two:
No contradictions int the BIBLE... Please! I could probably give a a book that sais 1000+ contradicitons in it. I was a schooled in a christian school since I was in kindergarten...

Note: Also with all that schooling in a christian school made me more loose faith in the BIBLE, GOD AND RELIGION.. why? coz I dont take everything what being spoonfed to me... I question authority and the reasons behind it... Im not against it, but its always up for scrutiny... and all that questioning made me realize - IT DOESNT ADD UP!

THREE:
basically you dont like the idea of man came the idea theory of hydrogen or some theory of monkey... HEY I DONT LIKE THE IDEA OF THE SKY BEING BLUE TOO!... but the sky in realm of logic and science - is still bue huh? too bad the universe dont care what you like..

POLL: Which theory is more stupid?

Evolution: Simple to complex...

Creation: Complex to simple...

If you need more explaining... the more reason you should stop taking... youll embarass yourself more...

FOUR:
Atheist Philantropist? WHAT ARE YOU A HERMIT? I could probably give you gud number names that fit in that category! search the internet... please check your statement before you makem itll make you more look dumb...

OH you didnt know huh? MOTHER THERESA in her last days wrote a in her diaries or letter... HOW SHE LOST FAITH IN GOD AND/OR RELIGION ... Yet she continued her work coz its humane for her... I guess you really are a hermit... dont believe me? search the google... youll find it in any popular video sites...

BILL GATES? scrutinizing Bill Gates of giving 2% of income... again do your research before you open your mouth... I dont know the exact # of that... but its definitely more than that...

he gives an average of 1 Million to charities per day... ya ya... you prolly say, coz hes a got lots of money... BUT THAT DOESNT CHANGE THE FACT THAT A MILLION IS STILL A MILLION.. more education, more housing, more help for the less fortunate... tell that your idea to the people who recieved charities from Bill Gates and tell me what they think...

FIVE:

Hitler? Pointing out to HITLER? !!! = So your saying if youre an atheist you automatically become evil... can I say LIMITED THINKING?

atheist philantropist just made your statement defunct...

Ill pair your statement...

How about the millions of deaths, torture and torement caused by the Papacy in the middle ages? Are we just gonna ignore that...

or how about this...

The number of people died in the name of religion will dwarf Hitler's so called genocide...

brown_dog.. tell you what frankly... stop talking... or at least check your statements if it viable... I think you should internalize this qoute from Winston Churchill... im not very fond of this.. but this very well applies to you...

"ITS BETTER TO SAY NOTHING AND BE THOUGH OF A FOOL THAN OPEN YOUR MOUTH AND REMOVE ALL DOUBT"

if you can understand that BTW....

im sorry but this is an oversimplification of thought. fallacious and illogical.

Communism can be considered athiest since they don't allow any forms of religions in their country.

this is false. What you refer to here is perhaps Modern Communism. Because the early Christians, practice an earlier form of Communism.


just my thoughts.

cheers.

[Jollibee]

im sorry but this is an oversimplification of thought. fallacious and illogical.

And you my friend... is just trying to sound smart...

failed miserable BTW...

if you got problem with my reasoning... state your statements - WITH reasonable facts and WITH accepted legitmate sources..

oh just my 2 cents t0o... and you can another 2 cents for all i care...

[Jollibee]

Communism actually believes in a "God" - the state or government is their GOD...

Atheist by a simplified definition - doesnt believe or consider the the existence of GOD of any forms... atheist generally hates the idea of one supreme body that gives orders or rules and we should all accept as it is.. with no form of appeal or reasoning...

although BTW,

Christianity is defined as a group of people who believes in Christ and is waiting for its second coming (christians, i do hope you know that, thats the key difference in your religion from another form of belief).

But Christianity and some other forms of belief or eligion... Believes in a God - and believes we hes rules or commands are Ironclad and should be taken as it is with no question asked...

errr... doesnt that sound a little closer to me to communism - which also reflects on the idea that what the government tells you - you do it - there is little hope or no hope for appeal or to reason agianst it...

so maybe Sinyalan is rigth... maybe christianity do share some characteristics with communism...

OT:
oh BTW!

I Openly accept that Im a Deitist - I believe in a GOD but not in religion - BUT also I dont believe in God that sits in a throne and watches humanity all day.

I belief in a GOd comes in a form of "Infinite Intelligence"

I hope you guys are educated in theories of a Gods... There are lots of them... Christian God is only one of the multitudes of list of theories of a GOD based on theyre behaviors...

and from that list I like very much the theory of a Clockmaker God - just like a clockmaker, he makes a clock and go out and makes another one... he doesnt care much of the clocks that he finished...

A God that made the world and dont care what happens to if after he made it... he just goes to another side of the universe to make another world....

you know why I like this theory?
Coz at least you can explain all the f*ckups thats all been happening in the world... coz HE JUST DONT CARE... lol

[The_Child]

You better stop justifying the existence of GOD with the use of LOGIC - logic is in the realm of science... You want to debate against science witht the use of Logic ? YOULL GET OWNED! ... Its like a boxer wanting to Swordfight a Swordmaster!

Religion and God = chief requirement : FAITH
Science = chief requirement : LOGIC


The existence of God, has been, since time immemorial, discussed by intellectual circles through the use of Logic. This is evident with the study of metaphysics, from classical to the current avant-garde.

also, inversely, the Science, also requires Faith. though not the religious sense, but Faith in the sense, that Science is incapable of explaining an absolute, thus, science only attempts to approximate the truth, and never the absolute Truth. which means that, science, in its approximation of truth, must pave way for a little wiggling space for faith.




No contradictions int the BIBLE... Please! I could probably give a a book that sais 1000+ contradicitons in it. I was a schooled in a christian school since I was in kindergarten...

Note: Also with all that schooling in a christian school made me more loose faith in the BIBLE, GOD AND RELIGION.. why? coz I dont take everything what being spoonfed to me... I question authority and the reasons behind it... Im not against it, but its always up for scrutiny... and all that questioning made me realize - IT DOESNT ADD UP!


Theological Hermeneutics pioneered by the Romanticists, would point out that interpretation is the coming together of the subject inquiring and the object being inquired. Contradiction perhaps stems not from the object but because of the imposition of the subject's preconceptions to the object.

Besides, you said earlier that Religion and God is left to Faith and not to science, if this is so, how could there be any contradiction to Faith?


POLL: Which theory is more stupid?

Evolution: Simple to complex...

Creation: Complex to simple...

reminds me of a problem in physics, the directionality of time. which states that we could not be too sure whether time is going forward or backward, this is simplified with the example of a ball and a camera frame. and like evolution, how sure could we be that it is a movement from simple to complex? and not the other way around? that instead of progression, we are actually regressing? or it could be an eternal movement that makes the direction difficult to triangulate. Friedman's Oscillation Theory. Bang Crunch Bang Crunch ad infinitum. Evolution or Devolution?

it is not stupidity, Stupidity is merely a value, on how somebody looks at thing and himself. What is stupid? that which is outside the conventions or standards. it maybe negative but it may also be positive.



OH you didnt know huh? MOTHER THERESA in her last days wrote a in her diaries or letter... HOW SHE LOST FAITH IN GOD AND/OR RELIGION ... Yet she continued her work coz its humane for her... I guess you really are a hermit... dont believe me? search the google... youll find it in any popular video sites...

wasnt it taken out of context, so said Mother Theresa's aide?


How about the millions of deaths, torture and torement caused by the Papacy in the middle ages? Are we just gonna ignore that...


yes. there are deaths. i dont think it would reach millions. I doubt that. Europe's population at the time...
But are we truly being bias against it, that we do not see the benefits brought about by Catholicism, Papacy to the world? See Jurgen Habermas and Joseph Ratzinger's Dialectics of Secularization.


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Communism actually believes in a "God" - the state or government is their GOD...

you miscontrue God with Ideology.



doesnt believe or consider the the existence of GOD of any forms... atheist generally hates the idea of one supreme body that gives orders or rules and we should all accept as it is.. with no form of appeal or reasoning...

anarchism is another thing.


errr... doesnt that sound a little closer to me to communism - which also reflects on the idea that what the government tells you - you do it - there is little hope or no hope for appeal or to reason agianst it...

so maybe Sinyalan is rigth... maybe christianity do share some characteristics with communism...

you again miscontrue, this time, Communism with Socialism.

Remember in Communism that famous phrase, the withering of the State?

this is also has something to do with the love-hate relationship between Bakunin and Marx.


I Openly accept that Im a Deitist - I believe in a GOD but not in religion - BUT also I dont believe in God that sits in a throne and watches humanity all day.


A Deist, where then is God? If he no longer, interferes with human Affairs? ah, perhaps "God is dead, and we killed him" how do you know God no longer cares? Evil in the world or in your terms "all the f*ckups thats all been happening in the world" does not necessarily mean that God no longer operates among mere mortals. correct?

yes just my two cents.

[munzter666]

brown dog

You consider Hitler a Christian? Good for you. He wants to kill or eradicate all the jews the race of Jesus Christ. More like an anti Christ to me.
But I really believe that there are people who shows themselves are Christians but are hypocrites. The work of the anti Christ himself.
Again we know the anti Christ will rise inside the church. This is the great battle of Good and Evil.

I don't have any clue what heaven is, based on paintings its a huge white place but in the Bible its described to have golden streets and there is a City called New Jerusalem

i was just merely stating historical facts...Hitler was/is a christian, just not a good one. thats the Christian's share of their own "bad apples".hahaha
the way you stated it was very misleading....

I can tell you famous athiest in our world which you can be proud of and its Hitler.

it was like saying "do you know who the greatest christian you can be proud of? ....JUDAS.

We can be righteous but Gods standard of rightneousness is so High that we need to die like Christ who is so pure in keeping the ten commandments in his thoughts and heart that he is sinless. Christ did love God what that does entails it encourages for us to share Gods love to others. Christ love for others is so great that that he died for them setting aside his Godly powers and healed many sick. Fortunately Christ is is giving the gift of salvation all you have to do is to believe in him and to walk with him and we can be saved.

Why then its only Christians are saved because God wants us to experience perfect love and happiness and through Christ we can experience it. There is a more complete love other than giving charity and its walking with Christ proclaiming the Gospel to save the souls of all men and women, to live with christ for eternity and sharing it with others is also a charity, Don't you think God will take care of his children when they truly walk with Christ.

Although there are lots of religions true religion is the love among other men as Christ did for us. And to believe and walk with Christ.
That is why I am a christian because without Christ I am not a Good Person and I am a sinner with all kinds of sins.

i have no qualms about christians doing good/charity in the name of your god. coz seriously, i do respect that.
what bothers me the most is (refer to bold face), how in the world could you love your fellowmen if you belittle/diss them just because they dont believe your god belief...coz an atheist asking why should i believe in your "god" is tantamount to a jew, muslim, hindu, etc asking the very same question. i'm may not be referring to your regular "christian" its the FUNDIE type that does.

Christian should live a Christ like way of lgiving to people, if what people here are claiming christians are killers and murderers then simply they are not true Christians. Simple. Get it?

note: nobody in this world can replicate what "jesus" did....
besides, just because a "christian" commits heinous acts/sins does not unnecessarily mean hind na yan christiano, christiano yan pero may depekto nga lang.haha (there's a bad christian and a good christian, same as a bad atheist and a good atheist)

the problem with Fundies eh,is the "if you are not like me, you are against me" mentality....which is quite similar to ABSOLUTISM, which is the way of the sith.haha

For those people who justifies that they are living their whole life being a dedicated volunteer charity for the poor they are more likely are not athiest.

you are speaking AS IF, all atheists are a rotten kind, wala sanang ganyanan. kung dedicated volunteer ang usapan eh, sari-sari naman yan eh. the christian camp has those, the jews, the hindus, even the atheists/non-group affiliated.haha

That is why God is calling for you to come and be part of God's family. God made heaven and should all athiest who is prefectly as what they claim to be without sin enter heaven. You cannot enter heaven if you are a sinner.

Are you justifying that athiest are without sin? and can enter heaven? have they prayed to Christ to forgive their sins. Who then forgives their sins? themselves? Do they keep the ten Commandments perfectly in thought and in their Hearts as what Christ did?

if this belief makes you live a better life then go for it. on the other hand, if it makes you a self-righteous bigot who claims to have all the answers, then it is probably bad.
I don't mind so much that you passionately believe in your God, I do question your need for everyone else to believe in him too. to a point, your words of "love" seem very elusive.

Do Christians hate bathala, Venus, Zeus,Shiva? Last time I checked they don't believe in them, and thus are indifferent. It's the same way atheists feel about any god...may it be bible god, or other god/s.

IMO, sin is unavoidable...you have the option to learn from it and become a better person, or be a dumb-a** repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

The only reason I continue to defend the position of my opinions, is no reason other than the continued assault, I and others receive by so called christians, fundamentally inclined on this forum for not believing, or buying into your christian doctrines.

[Jollibee]

@The_Child

#1 - Using logic to define GOD

Yes, Im guilty of jumping the Gun to about not using logic... BUT really now! havent you notice when your debating the existence of GOD. It always end up with the words...

"thats my belief..."
"you cant use logic coz God is beyond logic..."

So yes, Ill just jump the Gun again right now... If youll ever make those statements in the future, then well stop, as far as im concerned... the oppposite of faith is knowlege...

...

I strongly disagree... about science using faith. Yes faith has its part in the scientist or the researcher, BUT FAITH has no place in accepted body of scientific knowledge...

Dont confuse yourself...

"ITS OK TO HAVE FAITH IN YOUR FORMULATED HYPOTHESIS - BUT ITS NEVER OKAY TO USE FAITH TO AS AN EXPLANATION OF EXISTENCE OF SOMETHING" well as long as scientific body is concerned btw...

#2 About contradictions in the bible...

Tell you what... there WILL be always contradictions.. no matter what no matter where... even with interpreations that "hopefully" smoothens the contradicting passeges in the bible, theres always holes in it... AND if you take everything literally in the bible... the more youll have those contradiction...

Im not saying science is perfect... The new String Theory itself is full of holes, or even major theories itself has its holes...

the key difference is... science itself is trying, evolving and learning everyday to plug those holes... while religion always end up with "God works in mysterious ways"... or as you say... THERES ALWAYS NO CONTRADICTION IN FAITH...

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#3 Simple VS. Complex...

oh I dont know about you... but in my book...

"single cell organism to a multicellular oranism" is definitley a simple to complex to me...

OR you could be right... We are regressing... which leads to:

a) Im not sure if your saying this, but ill take it that when you mean regressing that there was once a GOD that devolved to humans and soon well be back to single organism... THEN why worship something that does not exist anymore... and gud luck to our future future future genrations since theyll be single celled and be back on the water...

im not saying ur saying that.. youre free to correct me...

b) yep were devolving alright... which is why the stone age people were waaaay more complex than us..

and yes in this context stupidity is severyly a negative term...

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Million deaths... maybe or maybe not...

But at 600 AD... it considered that the world population was about 200 million, at the time the largest concentration and of popluation was on europe and asia...

AND by all means... 1 milion deaths or even 2 million deaths in not a far off # if you count the the deaths in the middle east.. errr... like the "Crusaders" ring a bell...

Still though those are all being thought from the top of my head, there are no exact # really at the time, but my estimates tell me that it has a chance a gud one even that it reached millions...

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From what I seen - YES MOTHER THERESA WROTE THOSE LETTERS OR DIARIES HERSELF... otherwise you can give me a source to challenge its credibility...


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"Communism actually believes in a "God" - the state or government is their GOD..."

yes communism is not suppose to be that way... but thats exactly whats happening ... lol


------------------------------------------

correct me if im wrong... is anarchy the absence of rules.... enlighten me if im wrong with that please....

I have nothing against rules... Its the loss of ability to appeal or challenge the rules that bugs me!....

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About the Deitist and GOD thing...

I told you my conception of GOD is in the form of energy or infinite intelligince... hey we gotta believe in something right?

and I stated. that I LIKE BUT NOT BELIEVE in the theory of Clockmaker God...

AND you stated...

"all the f*ckups thats all been happening in the world" does not necessarily mean that God no longer operates among mere mortals correct?

goes back to you... yes, it doesnt prove that he does not operate among mortals, but it also doesnt prove that he DOES work with mortals too right? thats a neutral statment dawg... no points...

how do i know GOD doesnt care... back to you again and HOW do you know GOD cares?... haha... God could be just playing "SIMS" on a grand scale and got tired and bought a WII and played with it...

thats seems funny and absurd but I hope u get the idea...

[bcasabee]

Mother Theresa Diary Snippet

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...9/wteres29.xml


"The damned of Hell suffer eternal punishment because they experiment with the loss of God.

"In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God and that he does not really exist."

[The_Child]

"In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God and that he does not really exist."

its doubt. and everybody doubts.

I strongly disagree... about science using faith. Yes faith has its part in the scientist or the researcher, BUT FAITH has no place in accepted body of scientific knowledge...

Dont confuse yourself... I am not confusing my self, apparently your confusing my point. Scientific framework is limited. Science in general only approximates the truth, thus when it comes to the greater scheme of things, it is left to a secular Faith. The very notion of Popper's falsifiability tell us in someway, that a theory would be obsolete, but for now, it is the best that we could offer, although there is a terra incognita since a certain theory is always limited, we submit this to 'faith.'

I never said that Faith is used as an explanation in science, but rather, Faith is itself important to Scientific development, for its progress, for the acceptance of an approximate truth.

Tell you what... there WILL be always contradictions.. no matter what no matter where... even with interpreations that "hopefully" smoothens the contradicting passeges in the bible, theres always holes in it... AND if you take everything literally in the bible... the more youll have those contradiction...

apparently, though schooled since kindergarten on the Christian perspective your reply is no different from a fundie's perspective on the Bible, only that yours belong to the other side of the fence. your reply didnt seem to coalesce with what i said on theological hermeneutics. In my opinion, the romantics started it actually,that an object being interpreted is merely a reflection of the subject inquiring. dont confuse that. Contradictions especially in this context, lies not with the object but on the subject.


OR you could be right... We are regressing... which leads to:

a) Im not sure if your saying this, but ill take it that when you mean regressing that there was once a GOD that devolved to humans and soon well be back to single organism... THEN why worship something that does not exist anymore... and gud luck to our future future future genrations since theyll be single celled and be back on the water...

im not saying ur saying that.. youre free to correct me...

b) yep were devolving alright... which is why the stone age people were waaaay more complex than us..

and yes in this context stupidity is severyly a negative term...

i was presenting the issue of directionality without me concluding that we are progressing or regressing. Again, when you judge the stone age your point of reference is today. but what about looking at it in a bigger bigger perspective?

ad lib. Stupidity, is merely a social construct, legitimize by those who wield the power of language. ad libidum ra na.



ANd how does String theory get to this?


But at 600 AD... it considered that the world population was about 200 million, at the time the largest concentration and of popluation was on europe and asia...

AND by all means... 1 milion deaths or even 2 million deaths in not a far off # if you count the the deaths in the middle east.. errr... like the "Crusaders" ring a bell...

Still though those are all being thought from the top of my head, there are no exact # really at the time, but my estimates tell me that it has a chance a gud one even that it reached millions...

perhaps perhaps, but the core of my point to your statement is that Catholicism has contributed so much to the world, especially Europe. check the book i mnetioned.


"Communism actually believes in a "God" - the state or government is their GOD..."

yes communism is not suppose to be that way... but thats exactly whats happening ... lol

of course not. there has never been a communist state. but there were socialist states,USSR and etc, but theyre nothing but communist poseurs.


on Deism, ill i leave that to you. i am afterall, a greater part, dpending on the mood, a Deist.