Porgatory

**noy** · 01-11-2018, 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by Jhared

Younger..

Because the importance of baptism is being overzealously emphasized in Cathecisms this results to the notion that the consequence of its absence is highly unfavorable even for babies, hence not paradise..

while you are correct regarding the importance of baptism, the limbo theory is not necessarily derived from it or the lack thereof. it's a theory that has surfaced when theologians try to reconcile mercy and justice. it would be unjust for god to both condemn babies to hell because they died before getting baptized or save them just because they died before the age of reason given the teachings about original sin, purification of soul after death and the likes..hence, limbo. in all fairness pud sa mga church fathers who speculated the existence of limbo kay duna man puy scriptural and traditional basis from Judaism gud. now with the church being unable to fully unfold the mystery revolving between mercy and justice...left limbo to personal judgment of every catholic and let the mystery of mercy and justice remain a mystery to god..so granting that limbo does exist..if it's neither hell(condemnation) or purgatory(purification through fire) then it should be something way lighter...something closer to god and heavenly host that is... paradise? hahaha

**amingb** · 01-11-2018, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by noy

sakto ka bai mao jud na ang usa sa mga main basis sa purgatory...
expound lang ko gamay if you don't mind
divine or not(referring to Maccabees books and the likes) it shows jewish tradition on prayers for the dead which can be confirmed through the jewish bible (dili apil ang Maccabees sa jewish bible though), kabbalah(sacred traditions) or even from extra biblical sources...meaning ginabuhat na na sa mga karaan ug sina unang kristyanos tungod kay kasagaran sa ila mga hudeyo.

ug kanang chesmes nga gi insert ras katoliko nang mga libroha can be refuted easily if we look at history..
in the 4th century mostly na compile na ang book considered to be divine inspired..nay mga main ug secondary..heck even the gospel of john kay gikadudahan paman gani na sa una...hahahaha and yes kanang Maccabees nga libro apil na sa deuterocanonical books meaning lesser canon.. but apil sa compilation regardless...
it was not until 1500 years have passed after the protestant reform mga nibutho ang kisaw nga gi insert daw na mga libroha..
gi unsa pag insert nga naa na gani daan? hehehehe even the orthodox biblical canon kay nag include ana...actually mas daghan pa ilang lista sa mga deuterocanon kay sa katoliko...basin gikuhaan ni Luther kay duna may conflict sa iyang sola fide ug sola scriptura...actually di man jud unta conflict pero kapuyan guro syag explain...mao ingun sya na hala! ipatangtang nalang na...hahaha

How do you know bai nga Divine Inspired na nga book tungod ingon sa Vatican ?

Dili mana tsismis nga gi insert ug dili si Luther nga buot nga way labot ang Apocrypha. Anshei Knesset HaGedolah kani sila nag Decide which multitude of Jewish holy writings should be in the Bible.

Ang Protestant nag follow lang sa Hebrew Bible which is canonized by Anshei Knesset HaGedolah ( Men of the Great Assembly ) wala sila ning follow sa Vatican canonization which happen only in 1546 .. way behind kaau kay pag canonized sa Men of the Great Assembly ( si Ezra a prophet mao nag assembly ana ) was happen in 397 AD ... basin pas history ...

Sa akong side mo tuo kos Aning Men of Great Assembly kay Hebrew ni sila, kay mao ni sila maoy Chosen one sa ating Ginoo ... dii ang Roman Vatican ...

Sorry po ...

**amingb** · 01-11-2018, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by noy

while you are correct regarding the importance of baptism, the limbo theory is not necessarily derived from it or the lack thereof. it's a theory that has surfaced when theologians try to reconcile mercy and justice. it would be unjust for god to both condemn babies to hell because they died before getting baptized or save them just because they died before the age of reason given the teachings about original sin, purification of soul after death and the likes..hence, limbo. in all fairness pud sa mga church fathers who speculated the existence of limbo kay duna man puy scriptural and traditional basis from Judaism gud. now with the church being unable to fully unfold the mystery revolving between mercy and justice...left limbo to personal judgment of every catholic and let the mystery of mercy and justice remain a mystery to god..so granting that limbo does exist..if it's neither hell(condemnation) or purgatory(purification through fire) then it should be something way lighter...something closer to god and heavenly host that is... paradise? hahaha

insert pud ko bai ha ... about Limbo gi tang2x naman na sa Vatican sa time ni Pope John Paul ... ang bata or infant pa mamatay gani wapa na baptized adto jud nas Langit kay pure pana sila wana sila labot anang original sin kuno ....

The Pope ends state of limbo after 800 years - Telegraph

Daghan sab Catholic wa kabalo ani ... atong istoriaha about ana dili mo tuo .. wahahahahaha

About pud anang Baptism ang purpose ana aron ka ma Born Again ... ang bag-o natawo pure paman na sila wa paman nay mga Sala .. unya ngano bunyagan man ? hahahahha

Sa Protestant ang buhaton ana kay Baby Dedication unya rana bunyagan ug ma ka accept na siya sa Reality ug ready na siya ...

**luci_morningstar** · 01-11-2018, 11:37 AM

So around one verse to support Purgatory but a lot of verse that says there No purgatory?

**Jhared** · 01-11-2018, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by noy

while you are correct regarding the importance of baptism, the limbo theory is not necessarily derived from it or the lack thereof. it's a theory that has surfaced when theologians try to reconcile mercy and justice. it would be unjust for god to both condemn babies to hell because they died before getting baptized or save them just because they died before the age of reason given the teachings about original sin, purification of soul after death and the likes..hence, limbo. in all fairness pud sa mga church fathers who speculated the existence of limbo kay duna man puy scriptural and traditional basis from Judaism gud. now with the church being unable to fully unfold the mystery revolving between mercy and justice...left limbo to personal judgment of every catholic and let the mystery of mercy and justice remain a mystery to god..so granting that limbo does exist..if it's neither hell(condemnation) or purgatory(purification through fire) then it should be something way lighter...something closer to god and heavenly host that is... paradise? hahaha

In a way you are correct but I disagree with your euphimism, its always good to settle concepts with facts rather than use concept to prove another concept otherwise we'd just go around in circles with this thing. I mean of course it is obvious that limbo was derived from mercy and justice and whatnot, but based on facts how was it so?

The contention that this limbo theory stemmed from the idea of baptism is evidenced by the fact of the Augustine Letters (Epistulae 157) where Augustine, in disproving Pelagius' theory that infants can be saved without Baptism, said that who die without Baptism are consigned to hell. The Church through the Council of Carthage of 418 favored Augustine's view and stated that there is no “intermediate or other happy dwelling place for children who have left this life without Baptism, without which they cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, that is, eternal life".

So ever since upto katong elementary pata mao na ang gitudlo sa mga skwelahan and other Chatecism centers, that is true.. This is true even until now, even after Ratzinger ended the idea. This is the reason why ang mga katoliko bunyagan jd dayon ang bata nga gamay.

**WengIA** · 01-11-2018, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by noy

wa koy mabuhat bai weng if mao nay tan-aw nimus CAtholic church and I really couldn't care less..so I'm just gonna leave it at that.

on the topic though, have you heard of the mourner's quaddish? it is a form of prayer in the Jewish tradition for God to hasten up the purification of the soul of a departed loved one...sounds familiar?

and Yes gi reject sa mga Jew si Jesus as the Messiah(manluluwas) kay taas kuno sya ug buhok..joke!because for them he just basically did not qualify as the prophesied messiah according to how they understood the messianic prophesies written in either the torah or in the kabbalah.. and not because of the catholic church oi...long before pa dunay na porma nga relihiyon tungod ni jesus..gi reject na sya sa mga hudeyo,,,mao bitaw nagbitay sya sa krus..

now going back to purgatory being based from jewish tradition, the first followers of Jesus and heck even Jesus himself was a JEW!!! so natural naay mga remnants from jewish tradition nga maapil sa bagong Abrahamic religion nga nibutho when Jesus started his ministry.

one of the reason og nakahatag og dugang nga gap jud na bai noy ang catholic church.. kanang wala ni qualify si Jesus sa messianic prophesies pinakadakong rason ni nila. tan-aw man gud pod sa mga Jews kung christian ka.aw ma under naka sa Catholic/Vatican. daghan man gud gibuhat ang Catholic nga manipulation sa tradition og culture bai noy.. example lang nato bai noy. ang Jews culture pictures art wala na gibawal sa synagogue pero unsa gibuhat sa Vatican nagbuhat silag rebolto instead sa mga pictures lang or unsa pa.tan-awa ang manipulation ilang gibuhat para mahaum sa ilang cultura o nakasanayan nga rebolto2x.. ana lang man gud na mao nay nakaapan sa Catholic church. unya kini pod sa sabakan ni abraham unsa ila gibuhat gimanipulate man gihapon na. gihimong Purgatory2x tahay..

**NapoleonBlownapart** · 01-11-2018, 04:58 PM

I'm curious, what's the doctrine of original sin in RCC. Protestants have doctrine of original sin but I'm not sure it's the same. Thanks!

**amingb** · 01-12-2018, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by geremarv

do ubelieve porgatory if u belive asa mani dapita?

Purgatory bro dili porgatory .... hahahahah

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by luci_morningstar

So around one verse to support Purgatory but a lot of verse that says there No purgatory?

Maluwas man gud ang tawo base sa imong Faith .... dili did2 sa Purgatoryo, dako kaau nang supak sa Balaod-on ni Jesus Christ ....

Ug mao nang istoriaha mag sinalbahis nalang ta tanan kay naay Purgatoryo maluwas nata tanan ....

**noy** · 01-12-2018, 09:32 PM