The PH Catholic Church's best-kept secrets

[nitwit]

OT:





Sorry na.

apology accepted. truce

[<SMILE>]

apology accepted. truce

OT: Okay all is well.

[newbie.86]

Mit brennender Sorge is German for "With burning concern". Pius XII was primarily concerned with Nazi anti-Catholic propaganda. The encyclical defended baptized Jews (still considered Jews by the Nazis because of racial theories that the Church could not accept), but it never discussed Jews in general.

I would like to point out your SELECTIVE HONESTY on this area.

Had you ever finished reading the ENTIRE encyclical ?? A BIG NO, because you cant even distinguish what it talks about. Just relying on your favorite pastime of "lifting" comments from somebody's work. Ha!

Mit brennender Sorge is a condemnation of VARIOUS ERRORS: among which condemned are Nazism, anti-Catholicism, and pantheistic confusion, neopaganism, racial superiority , and primacy of the state (statolatry similar to imperial Rome's religion) and NOT ONLY ANTI CATHOLICISM.

Pius XI, as a leader of the Catholic Church has NO OBLIGATION whatsoever to anyone who is not Catholic. He is only responsible for those souls who were entrusted in the Catholic Faith. Same as the Islamic Imam who has no jurisdiction whatsoever to any Christian.

Does he has a moral and spiritual obligation to Jews? NO.
Does he has a moral and spiritual obligation to Protestants? NO.
Does he has a moral and spiritual obligation to atheists and apostates? NO.

The Pope this time, has interfered and tried to correct the errors in European society wether believers or not. But did anybody listen? NO, at their peril.

Imagine what could have happened had everybody -- Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jews, and nationalist Germans -- only listened to the Pope on this sermon Mit brennender Sorge.

Can you find the word "Jews" or "Gas Chamber" or "Final Solution" in those transcripts? No.

ANOTHER POOR EFFORT TO CRIMINALIZE THE POPE by MALICIOUS IMPUTATION.

Had the Pope included specific terms like "Jews" "Gas Chamber" "Final Solution" in his speeches, I would expect you to find another loophole in the Pope's speech.
Whats would be your demand from the Pope? NAME the 20 Million Nazis in his speech? Ridiculous and plain stup!d idea.

But thank God, the Pope HAS MORE WISDOM THAN YOU.
He is aware that NOT ONLY JEWS suffer as a result of the Nazi aggression. Other races suffered MORE CASUALTIES than the Jews. Systematic persecution was inflicted on Gypsies, Jews, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals and prostitutes.

SIX MILLION Jews
TWENTY MILLION Russians
TEN MILLION Catholics
SIX MILLION Polish, etc etc
1,900 priests and religious

total of EIGHTY MILLION casualtiese
.

These poor souls were subjected to A VARIETY OF TORTURES, not only gas chamber. They were subjected to humiliation, freezing, gas chambers, starvation, rape, scientific experimentation with acids poured on their eyes, mutilation, skinning alive and other horrors, etc etc. DOES THE POPE NEED TO MENTION ALL THIS GORE?

Had the pope forgot to mention those who died of starvation, you would once again condemn the pope for being insensitive.

Did the Russians cried out loud because they were not mentioned in the speeches?
Did the Polish cried out loud because they were not mentioned in the speeches?
Did the Catholics, the Pope's own flock cried out loud because they were not mentioned in the speeches?

The POPE HAS CONDEMNED ALL VIOLENCE PERPETUATED AGAINST THE VICTIMS by issuing a UNIVERSAL STATEMENT of condemnation.

Popes have seldom spoken in direct simple sentences. Pius, a trained diplomat, was even less direct than most. Reading encyclicals and other papal statements often requires interpretive skills to determine just exactly what is said. As a result, people can read into some papal words what they want to hear. And looked at in hindsight, Pius' words of protest fall short when measured against the horror of Nazi machinery of destruction. (source: Pius XII and the Holocaust: Understanding the Controversy - José M. Sánchez)

(CAN YOU MAKE YOUR OWN ARGUMENTS THIS TIME PLEASE? I pity those atrophied brain cells. )


All men are brothered in Jesus Christ. -- Pope Pius XII

----a VERY COMPLICATED statement, isnt it? Yes, you do need an interpreter for what he means by that.

I wouldn't go that far and exaggerate that Pius XII stopped the deportation.

It was not the telegram of Pope Pius XII to the head of the Hungarian state, Admiral Horthy, that stopped the deportations. It was stopped only after Horthy received numerous protests from many countries, including an ultimatum (with threat of military action) from President Roosevelt.

Actually, it was only after heavy bombing on Budapest which followed those diplomatic protests that the Vatican made their own protest to halt the deportations. But by then, close to 430,000 Jews had already been deported.

The fact that hostile VAD YASHEM recognized this act of Pope PIUS XII is enough to exonerate him from your MALICIOUS ALLEGATIONS.

As for the rest of the "Wasn't he the Pope", I would treat them as either they probably happened or there's more to it than meets the eye. I don't think every one of those things you mentioned happened exactly as you described. Some would be in dispute, exaggerated and some would probably be accepted as fact. But, like I said, I never said that Pius XII didn't do anything. I just echo the opinion of many writers/historians on this side of this debate, that Pius XII didn't condemn categorically the Shoa.
You know, there's a whole debate on this question alone, and it's still raging to this day.

The anti-VAtican VAD YASHEM HOLOCAUST MUSEUM has once again, gave an upgrade on the status of the Pope, who ""ENABLED A CONSIDERABLE NUMBER OF SECRET RESCUE ACTIVITIES to take place at different levels of the Church. Moreover, they point to cases in which the Pontiff offered encouragement to activities in which Jews were rescued.""

NO OTHER HUMAN BEING was honored by such statement from a hostile institution.

Actually, books written by secularists/humanists/atheists have criticized all these religions if you care to read them.

NONE after searching in vain -- but its better if you can share the title and author for everybody's benefit.
Curiously, everybody seems to be an expert when it comes to the Vatican and the Church.

ABOUT SICUT DUDUM. There's some attempts at historical revisionism by apologists to elevate Eugene IV to some sort of a anti-slavery hero. This is FALSE. He banned the enslavement of recently-captured African Christians and those tricked into conversion....but not non-christians and those who refuse to become christians.Finally, since Gregory XVI's In Supremo is dated 1839, the Quakers' founding of the Society for Effecting the Abolition of the Slave Trade in 1787 takes the cake as the first true anti-slavery movement.

Isn't it wonderful to note that CEBUANOS were freed from their practice of CHATTEL SLAVERY starting at the arrival of Catholic Christianity in 1591 -- almost 200 YEARS BEFORE the Quakers raised their placards !!!

This is something to be proud of as a Cebuano, isn't it?

Whether or not a statement is false is not up to you, especially when the issue has been debated in more formal platforms. You're angry because your biases have clouded your judgment. Simple as that.

Debate if you can, and ill share my own. I appreciate that my bias towards promotion of life has indeed clouded my judgement. I just pity those people whose judgements were clouded by a CONSCIOUS MANIPULATION of lies (self-deception) being paraded as facts in order to satisfy what they think is "right".

I'm not complaining. You want to criticize me? Bring it on.
You would make a fine Inquisitor, by the way.

Be happy that I am not an Inquisitor.

If I am, ill inflict the most excruciating torture to those WHO LIFT AND PLAGIARIZE OTHERs' WORKS!!! hahaha.

Im sure you will regret it.

[<SMILE>]

Pius XI, as a leader of the Catholic Church has NO OBLIGATION whatsoever to anyone who is not Catholic. He is only responsible for those souls who were entrusted in the Catholic Faith. Same as the Islamic Imam who has no jurisdiction whatsoever to any Christian.

Does he has a moral and spiritual obligation to Jews? NO.
Does he has a moral and spiritual obligation to Protestants? NO.
Does he has a moral and spiritual obligation to atheists and apostates? NO.

The Pope this time, has interfered and tried to correct the errors in European society wether believers or not. But did anybody listen? NO, at their peril.

Imagine what could have happened had everybody -- Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jews, and nationalist Germans -- only listened to the Pope on this sermon Mit brennender Sorge.

Very good point.

[teabag]

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peace...just sharing

[Bears Grill]

I would like to point out your SELECTIVE HONESTY on this area. Had you ever finished reading the ENTIRE encyclical ?? A BIG NO, because you cant even distinguish what it talks about. Just relying on your favorite pastime of "lifting" comments from somebody's work. Ha!

Guilty as charged. I forgot to put Wikipedia as source for that Mit brennender Sorge comment. Hey, some of us have deadlines to meet and kids to feed and tutor. I'm doing these Istorya stuffs in the late hours of the night when my brain is half asleep. If I know certain facts first hand, I'll give my opinion right away. If not, I have to quickly check your facts in Wiki or some other source and paste them here. Lazy, yes, I know...but it doesn't take long nor much brain cells to expose your lies.

Mit brennender Sorge is a condemnation of VARIOUS ERRORS: among which condemned are Nazism, anti-Catholicism, and pantheistic confusion, neopaganism, racial superiority , and primacy of the state (statolatry similar to imperial Rome's religion) and NOT ONLY ANTI CATHOLICISM.

yada, yada, yada...Condemnation? Really? Can you show me those strongly-worded statements that resemble the condemnation against RH Bill? Pius XII was a trained diplomat. I'm sure the tone is pretty much neutral or muted or the message is embedded in religious phrases such that people read from it nothing more than standard religious pronouncements. When it comes to condemnations, they put more vehemence against condoms than genocide. That's the joke right there. Show me an equivalent condemnation of the Shoa that resembles something like "TEAM PATAY!!!"

Did you know that Catholic masses in Germany celebrated Hitler's birthday until the day he died? And the fact that the Vatican entered into Concordats with the fascist regimes of Hitler and Mussolini seems to suggest they could be saying one thing and then doing the opposite. They brag about condemning Nazism and then they ignore the fact that clergymen were also participants in Jewish extermination in other fascist countries. Father Tiso who headed the Nazi satellite state of Slovakia? Ante Pavelic's Ustashe which has as part of its members Roman Catholic Clerical Fundamentalists? Ring a bell?

ANOTHER POOR EFFORT TO CRIMINALIZE THE POPE by MALICIOUS IMPUTATION.Had the Pope included specific terms like "Jews" "Gas Chamber" "Final Solution" in his speeches, I would expect you to find another loophole in the Pope's speech. Whats would be your demand from the Pope? NAME the 20 Million Nazis in his speech? Ridiculous and plain stup!d idea.But thank God, the Pope HAS MORE WISDOM THAN YOU. He is aware that NOT ONLY JEWS suffer as a result of the Nazi aggression. Other races suffered MORE CASUALTIES than the Jews. Systematic persecution was inflicted on Gypsies, Jews, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals and prostitutes.These poor souls were subjected to A VARIETY OF TORTURES, not only gas chamber. They were subjected to humiliation, freezing, gas chambers, starvation, rape, scientific experimentation with acids poured on their eyes, mutilation, skinning alive and other horrors, etc etc. DOES THE POPE NEED TO MENTION ALL THIS GORE?Had the pope forgot to mention those who died of starvation, you would once again condemn the pope for being insensitive.Did the Russians cried out loud because they were not mentioned in the speeches?Did the Polish cried out loud because they were not mentioned in the speeches?Did the Catholics, the Pope's own flock cried out loud because they were not mentioned in the speeches?The POPE HAS CONDEMNED ALL VIOLENCE PERPETUATED AGAINST THE VICTIMS by issuing a UNIVERSAL STATEMENT of condemnation.

Criminalize the Pope? No. I'm just asking if he mentioned the words "Jews", "Gas Chamber" or "Final Solution" in those addresses you say were clear condemnation of the Shoa. I didn't say he was anti-Semitic or a Nazi colluder. I'm saying he didn't categorically condemn the Shoa (which is specific to the Jews).

I am right about Pius XII's silence, because he did this for this alleged reason which he said so himself:

I have often considered excommunication, to castigate in the eyes of the entire world the fearful crime of genocide. But after much praying and many tears, I realize that my condemnation would not only fail to help the Jews, it might even worsen their situation…

---Pius XII

Some critics would argue that stronger and clearer condemnations would've done a lot to public sentiments in Germany and probably would've led to a scale-back of Jewish extermination programs as a result (remember that there are also a lot of Roman Catholics in the Nazi army). Others would argue that that would've made it worse. We can only speculate in hindsight.

All men are brothered in Jesus Christ. -- Pope Pius XII ----a VERY COMPLICATED statement, isnt it? Yes, you do need an interpreter for what he means by that.

Actually, yes, I do need an interpreter for that. All men are brothered by Christ EXCEPT...there's an unspoken EXCEPT or WITH THE CONDITION THAT THEY ARE NOT....Atheists, Deists, infidels, heretics, Jews, those damned Protestants, homosexuals, secularists, etc.

Come on, there's a fine print in there somewhere.

The fact that hostile VAD YASHEM recognized this act of Pope PIUS XII is enough to exonerate him from your MALICIOUS ALLEGATIONS.The anti-VAtican VAD YASHEM HOLOCAUST MUSEUM has once again, gave an upgrade on the status of the Pope, who ""ENABLED A CONSIDERABLE NUMBER OF SECRET RESCUE ACTIVITIES to take place at different levels of the Church. Moreover, they point to cases in which the Pontiff offered encouragement to activities in which Jews were rescued.""

Uh...Jesus Christ! You're throwing names at me again. Let me google to check your facts once again. I'm sure there's more than what you've advertised.

It's not VAD YASHEM. It's YAD VASHEM, the Holocaust Memorial.

It says here, like you said:

...his "neutrality prevented harsher measures against the Vatican and the Church's institutions throughout Europe, thus enabling a considerable number of secret rescue activities to take place at different levels of the Church.

This showed a softening of stance, because it's referring to YAD VASHEM's pre-2012 statement:

Even when reports about the murder of Jews reached the Vatican, the Pope did not protest either verbally or in writing. In December 1942, he abstained from signing the Allied declaration condemning the extermination of the Jews. When Jews were deported from Rome to Auschwitz, the Pope did not intervene. The Pope maintained his neutral position throughout the war, with the exception of appeals to the rulers of Hungary and Slovakia towards its end.

So, my point about Pius XII's silence is indeed upheld...since this (silence) was allegedly deemed to have enabled those rescue activities.But don't stop, because the next line reads:

"However, until all relevant material is available to scholars, this topic will remain open to further inquiry,”

NO OTHER HUMAN BEING was honored by such statement from a hostile institution.

Come on, @newbie. VAD YASHEM's statement sounded more like "Oh, Pius XII was silent and neutral in order to conduct those rescue operations....but not so fast. We still need further inquiry into this matter." That doesn't sound like being honored.

NONE after searching in vain -- but its better if you can share the title and author for everybody's benefit.

Books criticizing the major religions? Try Christopher Hitchens' God is not Great.

Curiously, everybody seems to be an expert when it comes to the Vatican and the Church.

Just curious. Are you an expert of the Vatican and the Church? Any chance I might be corresponding with a clergyman?

Isn't it wonderful to note that CEBUANOS were freed from their practice of CHATTEL SLAVERY starting at the arrival of Catholic Christianity in 1591 -- almost 200 YEARS BEFORE the Quakers raised their placards !!! This is something to be proud of as a Cebuano, isn't it?

Not so fast. Slavery already existed in the pre-Spanish era: Aliping Sagigilid, Aliping Namamahay....The Spanish colonizers only needed to tweak the concept and introduced polo y servicio to serve the encomiendas.

Your claim that the Catholic Church was the first to champion an anti-slavery movement is FALSE. Christendom was one of the major participants in slave trading...and so did Muslims (to be fair).

Debate if you can, and ill share my own. I appreciate that my bias towards promotion of life has indeed clouded my judgement. I just pity those people whose judgements were clouded by a CONSCIOUS MANIPULATION of lies (self-deception) being paraded as facts in order to satisfy what they think is "right".

Hmmm...I thought the same about you. I kept checking your facts and they're always either exaggerated or there was more to it than meets the eye or just outright cherry-picking and leaving out the bits that didn't support your argument.

My claims, however, have been upheld and reinforced, every time you bring new stuffs that you thought would expose them as lies.

You bias towards promotion of life? Ha! It's more like an irrational bias towards the promotion of unnecessary suffering. Look, I've already said that abortion must be avoided as much as possible...but I leave the option open in extreme cases like to save the mother, etc. You didn't answer my question: In the case of that nun in Australia, would you rather the mother and child die just because abortion should never be an option? What about condoms? Why is the use of condoms immoral?

Be happy that I am not an Inquisitor.If I am, ill inflict the most excruciating torture...

Sounds very Catholic to me.

[masakiton]

Pius XI, as a leader of the Catholic Church has NO OBLIGATION whatsoever to anyone who is not Catholic.

alteast ila i prove sa members og non members sa organization nga dili tinood ang mga pasangil
as a leader.. murag part sa iya responsibilities ang pag act kung naai dili maayo nga activities under sa iya leadership

[wojciech]

OT : coz their is no god.... heaven and hell exist when your still alive (happy life/worst life),,, death is porgatory coz when you die... you will die ug wala nakay maramdaman..... erased naka

Wojciech
ATHEIST

[SioDenz]

OT : coz their is no god.... heaven and hell exist when your still alive (happy life/worst life),,, death is porgatory coz when you die... you will die ug wala nakay maramdaman..... erased naka

Wojciech
ATHEIST

If this is true, I will not bother waking Up this morning.

[<SMILE>]

alteast ila i prove sa members og non members sa organization nga dili tinood ang mga pasangil
as a leader.. murag part sa iya responsibilities ang pag act kung naai dili maayo nga activities under sa iya leadership

If the accusation is outside the jurisdiction of the church
meaning it's the law of the land sensitive, then why ask the church leadership
to do the litigation. Let me imply once more that if one is accused he should be proven
guilty beyond reasonable doubt, and now what would the role of the leadership then,
make it's own inquiry for what? bring again suspicion of impartiality, let the third party
the most credible rule of law take it's course, and by that time the role of the leadership sets
in to protect it's members, and let me tell NO ONE is above the law nor strong men nor religion.