The Roman Catholic Church~ Questions

[noy]

---

Religious people believe that its all about a life of good works to attain a higher level of spirituality. If a person lived an exceptional christian life, does it automatically mean that they are good in God's eyes? I'm not judging those who lived a good christian life, but its not for me to know whether or not they have an authentic relationship with the Lord--not merely good works, or moralism, or religiosity.

i think you are referring to SELF-RIGHTEOUS people..i think we can both agree that no matter how we sugar coat our inner thoughts and desire with being self-righteous...mugawas jud na ang tinuod.
so kanang mga self righteous bai, di na magdugay ang pagka buotan...ingun pa nila..way aso makumkom..

when i say exceptional Christian Life, i am referring to those people who actually walked the talk.
we are talking about people giving up their lives for the gospel and for others.
people who had been martyrd for the sake of others knowing the gospel of Christ.
Yes true enough that Faith in God will determine our Salvation, BUT how is FAITH determined?
of course through good works STILL. alangan man pud ug muingun ko nga Love kaau nako si Lord then perting manyaka nako..hihihi...can i still be considered faithful? of course not diba?

What makes you good in God's eyes? Is it good works? The bible says that our good works are filthy rags in front of God. There is no righteousness on our own. We are all hell bound sinners. Rom 3:10-11, 3:23,6:23. That's the reality of who we are. All of us.

i agree with the verse 100%.Evil people can still do goodworks but with evil desires and intentions.i think that is what the verse was trying to say, otherwise, the bible wouldn't have this verse written in James 2:17
"Faith without action is a dead faith"

There are two ways in rejecting Christ as savior. The first way; being religious. Trusting on you own righteousness to be right in front of a holy God. Second way; being irreligious, living a life ignoring God in ones ways. How then can i be right with God? The third way, the way of Christ.

regarding being religious, i agree that being religious would not pave our way to salvation...especially if our being religious is not done out of worship for the ALmighty and not done out of Love for others but out of somrthing else..worse if its done to please others or simply just to appear religious.
BUT we also cannot rule out being religious as not all religious are posers and fakers.
now when you described being religious as "making our own ways of worshipping God"
can you please elaborate on that? if you are referring to RCC practices..
i think there would be a need for you to do a little research on how these practices came to place and what are the Biblical references about these practices...
and if you are going to be black and white about how God is worshipped based on how you and your church/denomination understand what's written on the Bible...aren't we also at the same time...condemning others?
How about those people who never got the chance to know Jesus?but led a good life?
how about others from another religion but led a good and loving life? are they doomed?
The way of Christ is to Love with no boundaries..
when we accuse the RCC for worshipping idols, creating other means for salvation etc...
is that the way of Christ?
i used the term accuse because as an RC, i know and believe that our DOCTRINE of the Catholic Church
never in any way said that Jesus is never enough and that we should worship Mary or any other Saints.
of course it is so easy to depict idolatry and other things towards RCC if you are not Catholic..
'cause you simply have different POVs, interpretatitons...
in the same way we easily question things we don't understand..may unta ug question lang...ang kuyaw if we make it absolute..
like how the others see us.

If we can make it on our own and attain that levels of spirituality (if there is), what's the need for Christ death on the cross? Surely we can't, that is why Jesus Christ came to pay the consequences of our sins and so that we become alive in him spiritually. Unless there is no surrender to Christ, there is no genuine salvation.

So, that's to give us the context on what it means to be alive or dead in front of God. Now, if there is such a thing as level of spirituality, then its just like you are saying that its all based on our good works not on the finished work of Christ on the cross. There is nothing that we can do to add on Christ finished work, and there is nothing that we have done to subtract Christ complete salvation for us. That is what Christ said on his last breath "it is finished". It is already paid in full. Its done and all we need to do is to put our faith on Him that he has saved us.

i belive you misunderstood my point. you are taking it from your POV,
i have never said in any way that Christ is NOT enough.
is having others pray for us means Jesus is not enough?

sus bai, again you misunderstood me about comparing us with the Departed Saints
when i said they are even more alive than us today...what i was trying to say is that
by examining their lives would you really think that we and those guys are just equal?
are we able to throw all our wealth and give to them to the poor?kiss the leper's wounds perhaps?St.Francis of Assisi did..

now considering my example, me being just a regular Christian forumer...
and a Priest, who is also a missionary and at the same time who is also a Doctor of the Church...
asa ka mag pa ampo ug una? ug una ha? 'cause it doesnt mean nga sa mga ngilngig ra ta mag pa ampo...

and do you really think those departed Saints can kiss a leper? or perhaps go through martyrdom and persecution
on thier own?
i think you would understand this more if you would do a reserch about the Life of the Saints..
you may wanna start with St. Augustine.
and tell me if those people just doing things on their own without God's Spirit.

Level of spirituality? Its only either you are dead or alive. Either you are in Christ or not in Christ. If those Christians who have gone ahead of us are in Christ, they are of equal standing to those who are also in Christ today. If Christ is our ultimate savoir, our spirituality is only based on him.

Salvation wise, everyone is equal..diba naa na sa Bible?prehas ra ug sweldo ang nagsugod ug sayo ug ang dugay as long as nihuman lang..
kung wala pay Level ang atong spirituality bai, we wouldn't have Priests,Pastors, Spiritual Fathers...
spiritual counselor etc? ug wala na unta tay mga pangutana kabahin anang mga butanga kung prehas ra tag Spirituality tanan...

Regarding the saints, the apostle Paul calls his fellow brothers in the faith as saints. In his letters to the churches in Rome, Corinth and etc, he greeted them and addressed them as SAINTS. Saints are Christians. Genuine Christians.

Yes, indeed whoever is in Christ is a new creation and for that we can consider ourselves Saints...
BUT have we reached the fullness of that sainthood already? of course wala pa kay on and off paman atong connection sa Ginoo
diba? sahay santos kaau to sunod napud murag di kaayo santos...
meaning while we are on this earth we are still subject to SIN, and every breath we take is a battle.
mao bitaw nang way Santos nga buhi..hehehehe
even those people who led an exceptional Christ-like lives...will not get the fullness of that sainthood
'cause they are still subject to Sin..
mao anha na ang pag examine diha kung venarable ba cla as blessed and i canonized dayun as Saint
(pls refer to the link i posted previously for the canonization process)

in other words, we are all saints in a way when we accepted and strive hard to follow the footsteps of Jesus
that's why we can pray over others etc
BUT to gain the fullness of it mao nang canonization..
(i wouldn't expect you to believe that process kay di man ka Catholic, but at least consider it as sacred kay mao na ang paagi gi reveal sa Ginoo sa amu..feel free to search and study about it though)
and by the term fullness, we also believe that they are already in Heaven with God and can continue their intercession for us
so technically that separates the talking to the saints from witchcraft and occultism

i had a friend who already passed, he was a priest,,he too led a very Christ-like life...
if ako lang pabut.on Santos na to siya..and yes he is technically but dili lang canonized.
mao dili lang usa ko mo pa pray niya kay perhaps naa pa siya sa cleansing process...
so i pray for him instead.

I hope this helps. These aren't my words. These are words from the bible. I'm not an anti-catholic and i'm not here to argue. Grace to you!

Thanks for the will wishes. however those may be what the Bible says but STILL not free from personal interpretation.

[acescream]

@Breakeven

iapas lang ko ni ha para di kau to taas ang previous post.

@acescream

bro, dili baya lisud sabton ang Trinity
If you have a monadic concept (single unit) of God like in Islam, Cults, etc. another philosophical problem would emerge....like sa atong nabaloan that God speaks, God loves....so before the creation whom was HE loving? to whom was he speaking? rzim.

unsa diay imo nasabtan sa Trinity bro? share pud diha.

Diha lang sa trinity nga concept where you can see that even before the beginning GOD is complete and is a being in relationship.

Proove it in your own understanding, without violating these bible principles set by Apostle Paul:

1. Compare spiritual things to spiritual(1 Corinthians 2:13) > simple, make sure that you did not misunderstand the verse that you are using.

2. Use the Bible, for the truth is always within(2 Timothy 3:16).

3. Do not go beyond what is written(1 Corinthians 4:6).

this one's from Matthew:

4. Don't use your own opinions if you can't find what your saying in the Bible, or ideas and rules of other men outside of the Bible(Matthew 15:9).

and from my own:

5. you can cite some facts from encycopedias, history books, as long as they are confirmed facts.

If you can explain your understanding in the Trinity without violating the bible principles 1-4 set by the apostles, then, Trinity it is.

P.S.Ayaw nang copy-paste2x style bro gikan sa net, kay mura man kag nagsalig sa uban ana sa imong faith ngadto ni God. Mura nuog way klaro imo faith ana kay wa man kay nasabtan, nagsalig ra kas uban. Murag bawod sa dagat nga madala2x ras hangin(James 1:6).

Good luck have fun!

[dartzed]

Lemme explain what the Bible taught me......

First of all, did God say this Himself? Before answering that, let's look at the 'picture as a whole', Heb 1:14

Spoiler! 

For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”[a]?
Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”[b]?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]
7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]
8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]
10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[f]
13 To which of the angels did God ever say,

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”[g]?
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

footnotes:
Hebrews 1:5 Psalm 2:7
Hebrews 1:5 2 Samuel 7:14; 1 Chron. 17:13
Hebrews 1:6 Deut. 32:43 (see Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint)
Hebrews 1:7 Psalm 104:4
Hebrews 1:9 Psalm 45:6,7
Hebrews 1:12 Psalm 102:25-27
Hebrews 1:13 Psalm 110:1

as you can see, the author in Hebrews are quoting passages in the Old Testament. So technically, the author did not say these himself. Now let's go to the Old Testament passages the author quoted and study them one by one. If you have a Bible there, any Bible, much better.

Ill use the bible that you are using sa mga posts since lain ang translations sa RC para maparehas word by word..

hmmmmmmm if mao na ang pasabot nimo quoted ra d i ni tanan meaning kana tanan gisulti dha sa hebrews are not God's words but someone else's words to God?.. correct me if i'm wrong here...

Qouted from the prophets or God?.. mga readers analyze daw mo ug apil ani..

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]
8 But about the Son he says,........
and so on reffer to the spoiler above

bro seriously kinsa man jud? who says who?.. God or the Author? or from others?..

and if sakto ka bro then the author of Hebrews must be making his Own Story about God pero wala ni nahitabo kay nahimo rani nga storya tungod sa mga collections of praise and worship sa uban nga prophets?..

here's the kicker

Heb 1:8 quoted Psalm 45:6-7

Spoiler! 

Your throne, O God,[a] will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.

. Open your book to Psalm 45. Can you see the intro? This:

Spoiler! 

For the director of music. To the tune of “Lilies.” Of the Sons of Korah. A maskil. A wedding song.

As you can see, it is a wedding song, maybe written by David? But as you can see, God is not the one who wrote it. Psalm 45:6-7 are two stanzas in that song, sung by people.

Hebrews is wrong God did not said this kay sung by someone else d i..

So how come the author in Hebrews quoted Psalm 45:6-7? Basaha ang sinugdanan sa Hebrews, Heb 1

Spoiler! 

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,

Did you see "through the prophets at many times and in various ways". Mao ni gusto ipahibalo sa author sa Hebrews on why nag-quote siya'g mga passages from the Old Testament. Iya gipakita sa mga readers how God's messages are portrayed in the Scriptures written by the prophets.

Hebrews is wrong God did not said anything like this sa Hebrews kay it's written by God's prophets.. arent prophets words are also the words of God at the 1st place? well not all nua kay naa man sad opinions gamay..hehe

Part 2, Psalm 45:6-7

The writer of this song definitely didn't write this for God to sing, but for the people to sing. Look at the first stanza

Spoiler! 

Your throne, O God,[a] will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

, obviously is addressed to God, describing his might. Then look at the next stanza

Spoiler! 

You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.

, the singer is obviously not talking to God directly, for God doesn't have a God, for there is no other God besides Him(Isaiah 45:5), and if Jesus is God, He has not even been born yet at that time. Therefore, the singer is addressing this to someone, other than God, who is "righteous and hates wickedness". So who is that besides God, this is what Jesus said in John 7:7

Spoiler! 

The world can't hate you, but it does hate me because I accuse it of doing evil.

, so he said he hates evil, wickedness and he is in righteousness, for Jesus was found with no sin(2 Corinthians 5:21), and to make this passage solid to someone who has a God..surprise! Jesus has a God(John 20:17).

Hebrews is wrong God did not write this kay written by someone else..

So if you read Hebrews 1:8 again, it's now clear about what God says about Jesus, through the song in Psalm 45 written by a prophet, that God has set Jesus above everyone else. It's like Psalm 45:7 is a hidden message from God in a wedding song.

So, is it now clear to you that in Heb 1:8 that God did not say this Himself, but is a stanza of a song, written by His prophet, and here God is not calling anyone other than Himself 'God', for there is no other God besides Him(Isaiah 45:5), and nowhere in the Bible can you see that God exalted Jesus to be a God like Himself.

Hebrews is wrong God did not said this kay written by some prophet..


bro dha sa imo ingon nga quoted rana tanan sa uban tao ug propeta...
dre sa "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways"

hay man mao ni ang nahitabo dba God's word mao may nauna then people know this "word of God" thats why mao na ila gipangsulti qouted from them(prophets, singers, etc..) from God mismo "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways" tan.awa na nahitabo sa Hebrews bro, ang writer(prophet) told his story according to what God said.. which is mao jud na ako pagsabot sa Hebrews kay ug ako na imix ang imo giingon nga quoted from other passages sa bible then the story of Hebrews doesn't make sense na hinuon..

"God spoke" through the prophets deli ba clear nga gikan ni God ang words ninaagi sa mga prophets?..

so saying

is like saying God is a liar(Isaiah 45:5 - I am God..there is no other god besides me...) and this will create two gods.

Such a blasphemy.

I dunno you tell me those were not my own words at the 1st place, i got those verses from the bible..

maybe for you not for US who believe in the holy trinity one God..

[noy]

hehehe ok bai noy. I was a bit lazy mao nagprovide nalang kos mga links nga naa sa net. Anywayz, kana nga link was just to refer about the King James Version, then kapoi ukay sa akong documents about sa King James Version nga gipamatud-an sa scholars nga erroneous.



it would be my honor, i will give you some SPECIFIC credentials:

These are for letting you know i'm not the only one who came up with a belief of Jesus being regarded as man, not God, by his followers & the apostles. These are some findings of some Catholic theologians about Jesus. These are people that have dedicated their lives in studying the Bible along with church history:

From a Roman Catholic priest, Richard P. McBrien in his book, Catholicism:

"The New Testament writers do not even ordinarily speak of Jesus as 'God'.."(McBrien, Richard P. Catholicism. Third Edition. , p.346)

From Pedro Sevilla, a Jesuit priest and a fellow Filipino in his book Ang Kabanalbanalang Isangtatlo: Ang Diyos ng mga Kristiyano:

"Kaya't hindi maaring sabihin na tinatawag nang Diyos si Jesus noong mga kaunaunahang araw ng Kristiyanismo."(Sevilla, Pedro, S.J. Quezon City: Loyola School of Theology - Ateneo de Manila University, Ang Kabanalbanalang Isangtatlo: Ang Diyos ng mga Kristiyano, 1988, p.32)

From Charles G. Herzog, another Jesuit priest, in his book God the Redeemer: The Redemption From Sin as Wrought By Jesus Christ the Son of God:

"If anything is evident in the Gospels, it is that Christ was man. He had a real human body, and a real human soul, endowed with a human mind and will."(Herzog, Charles G., S.J., God the Redeemer: The Redemption From Sin as Wrought By Jesus Christ the Son of God., p. 5) - ^even a recommended book, but not free, here: Recommended Books

an observation from a theologian, Thomas Sheehan:

"The crisis grows out of a fact now freely admitted by both Protestant and Catholic theologians and exegetes: that as far as can be considered from the available historical data, Jesus of Nazareth did not think he was divine..."(Sheehan, Thomas. The First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity.)

See? I'm not the only one who came up with this. Good luck!

that doesn't make your statement credible in an absolute manner.
there are even priests converting to Islam,Buddhism and even Aetheism..

PLUS, wala nimu gi state imung credibility regarding greek and hebrew translations
kay mao man nay imung gipangusgan nga sayop ang pag translate sa Bible from original text.

mao bitaw ngutana ko nimu why should i consider your POV over what has been
in placed for nearly 2000 years and sharo naman pud ug walay naka correct sa maong translation sa Bibliya
and kanang imuha dili na correction, accusation ang tawag ana...hihihi
btaw what you have there my friend is just a speculation nothing more..
what i am trying to say really is how can you prove that you are correct?

plus what you posted are Your reference, they may be your reference's credintials but not your own.

[slabdans]

mangutana ko bi

ngano mag dagkot man gyud ug kandila?

[noy]

mangutana ko bi

ngano mag dagkot man gyud ug kandila?

post lang ko ug link slabs,
The History of Votive Candles

OT:whenever i light a candle, a phrase of a song often crosses my mind...

"Light of the world you stepped down into darkness, open my eyes let me see..
beauty that makes this heart adore You, Hope of a life spent with You"...

[slabdans]

ahh mao di ie salamat bai Noy

[Breakeven]

post lang ko ug link slabs,
The History of Votive Candles

OT:whenever i light a candle, a phrase of a song often crosses my mind...

"Light of the world you stepped down into darkness, open my eyes let me see..
beauty that makes this heart adore You, Hope of a life spent with You"...

Here I am to worship..... one of my favorite gospel music bro!

[Breakeven]

@acescream

Bro im not a theologian nor a bible scholar (unlike nimo), but my simple faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is what compels me to share what I have to share based on my understanding…what I have is only a fraction of the real and whole truth. Kung unsa may kuwang/sayop sa akong nashare you are always free to correct or stress out kung unsa ang insakto para nimo. But im making sure what I contributed is in keeping with the biblical teachings.

unsa diay imo nasabtan sa Trinity bro? share pud diha.

kani nga thread bro ai…napay pakapin nga illustration kung dili kayo nimo masabtan deeper ang logic

https://www.istorya.net/forums/genera...ledge-god.html

Prove it in your own understanding, without violating these bible principles set by Apostle Paul:
1. Compare spiritual things to spiritual(1 Corinthians 2:13) > simple, make sure that you did not misunderstand the verse that you are using.
2. Use the Bible, for the truth is always within(2 Timothy 3:16).
3. Do not go beyond what is written(1 Corinthians 4:6).
this one's from Matthew:
4. Don't use your own opinions if you can't find what your saying in the Bible, or ideas and rules of other men outside of the Bible(Matthew 15:9).
and from my own:
5. you can cite some facts from encycopedias, history books, as long as they are confirmed facts.
If you can explain your understanding in the Trinity without violating the bible principles 1-4 set by the apostles, then, Trinity it is.

Dili nimo masabtan kayo ang concept kung sa OT (prior Jesus' birth) imong reference, yet naa gani gihapon daghan verses sa OT that supports the Trinity.

Good you cited the Apostle Paul, don’t you know that it was Him who mentions more about this concept of the TRINITY in the whole NT?

Unsa diay sabot nimo anang Father-Son relationship bro?
If youll try to look in the book of Romans labi na in chapter 8, The Apostle Paul addresses what the Trinity is...furthermore he specifically talks who or what the Holy Spirit is. He also mentioned throughout his epistles specifically in the book of Romans again the nature of the relationship between the other two parts of the Trinity, Father and Son. It becomes clear by reading the epistles of Paul that the Trinity is indeed the union of three persons in one, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Usa pud, I’d like to quote from the early Christian concept of this Father-Son relationship...Tertullian explains:

Before all things God was alone … He was alone because there was nothing external to him but himself. Yet even then was he not alone, for he had with him that which he possessed in himself—that is to say, his own Reason. … Although God had not yet sent out his Word, he still had him within himself…

I may therefore without rashness establish that even then, before the creation of the universe, God was not alone, since he had within himself both Reason, and, inherent in Reason, his Word, which he made second to himself by agitating it within Himself.

In other words, there was a time when the Logos of God was inside of God. God was alone, but he had fellowship with his own Logos inside of him. When it was time to create the world, it was then that God birthed the Word as the second person of the Trinity:

Now as soon as it pleased God, he first put forth the Word … in order that all things might be made through him.

P.S.Ayaw nang copy-paste2x style bro gikan sa net, kay mura man kag nagsalig sa uban ana sa imong faith ngadto ni God. Mura nuog way klaro imo faith ana kay wa man kay nasabtan, nagsalig ra kas uban. Murag bawod sa dagat nga madala2x ras hangin(James 1:6).

Good luck have fun!

Pasensya na bro dili jud nako kalikayan nga magpalaban jud ko kay limited raman kayo akong knowledge, importante lang what I extracted ako sad nasabtan and inline sa akong gibarugan….dili mana copy paste nga walay tumong.

Pero dako kayo akong kasing2 to share the gospel for the advancement of God’s kingdom bro.

[SyniTh]

oh i see...Thanks! point taken on the intercession side..so Jesus is the only mediator and can and Is the most powerful intercessor.
But does that mean that there shouldn't be any other intercessors?

say if we ask a fried to interceed for us, would that be an insult to God?

Does asking others to pray for us to the Lord our God considered another way?

doesn't the Bible have teachings about praying for each other?
didn't Jesus said that our love for another will prove that we are His disciples?
isn't praying for others one of the many acts of Love?

If you are in Christ, you now have an access to God's throne of grace. In Heb 4:14-15 we read that since Christ is our great high priest, we can now draw to him personally. "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. "

The saints which you are referring to doesn't have a "VIP access to God". I think most Filipinos have the mentality that " Ang Saints kay mas doul na sila sa Ginoo, so kung naa kay request ato ipa.agi nila". Which is wrong because Christ is our great High priest that mediates us to God. And it is only through him that we can come to God's throne.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be other intercessors. Intercession and praying for each other is always true and biblical.

Let me illustrate it this way.

When we pray with Christ as mediator it is.... From you to God, Through Christ as the mediator.
When we let others pray for us it is..... From your brother to God, Through Christ as the mediator. This is what it means by praying for each other. That's the reason why we always say it the end of our prayers "in Christ's name we pray, Amen"

But, if we pray to saints, its.... From you to God, Through the saint.

Now to your question, Does asking others (which you mean the saints) to pray for us to the Lord our God considered another way? Yes. Because Christ now doesn't become the only way.

doesn't the Bible have teachings about praying for each other?
didn't Jesus said that our love for another will prove that we are His disciples?
isn't praying for others one of the many acts of Love?

Yes, the bible have teachings about praying for each other. But not prayers that is mediated by men like us na instruments ra pd ni Christ.