Discussion on the Christ Jesus.

[Empress_Of_Drac]

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Note: dunno where to post this one...don't see any religion forums here...@mods just transfer this to the appropriate forum

Check this one...this is a statement
by Bertrand Russell from his book "Why
I am Not a Christian"...

"Then you come to moral questions.
There is one very serious defect to my
mind in Christ's moral character, and
that is that He believed in hell. I do
not myself feel that any person that
is really profoundly humane can
believe in everlasting punishment.
Christ certainly as depicted in the
Gospels did believe in everlasting
punishment, and one does find
repeatedly a vindictive fury against
those people who would not listen to
His preaching -- an attitude which is
not uncommon with preachers, but which
does somewhat detract from superlative
excellence."

...this one really makes sense...

[diem]

It's all a matter of interpretation and one must consider all things. As Bertrand Russell based his statement on events according to the Gospels of the New Testament, so I shall use the same as basis for my statement .

I am not truly disagreeing with Bertrand Russell's statement but let us consider all the angles.

One has to remember that Jesus was raised as a Jew, and Jews have a severe crime-punishment system going back from the time of Moses.(An eye for an eye)

Jesus was just using an effective way of reaching to the people of His Time. Through his sermons and parables, He presented himself as a recognizable strong authority figure by using language, notions, images and beliefs that the common people could remember and relate to.

The Jews then were a hard people living during hard and turbulent times. They have had a violent history, and even until now suffer a violent present in Israel. You'd think that Jesus would be effective as a Prophet if he presented himself as a softie constantly promoting pacifism and love? Preaching that way to Jews will be like preaching to a stone wall, casting pearls before swine! And amidst the crowds that gather around Jesus were the arrogant, ultraconservative Pharisees and Sadducees, the toughest of the lot to break!

One has to be as hard as rock and as just as resolute, in order to break these people down then build them up! That was Jesus did. Jesus preached about eternal punishment because it was something his audience, his people believed in.He spoke in a way to make sure people would listen and not only just listen, but take to heart His words.

That's my humble opinion of it. And I would like to humbly suggest something too.

If we are to 'judge' a person (be the Person a Godhead or a Human-prophet), let us remember to not judge him/her merely by just the words s/he spoke but also take in account his/her actions.

According to the Gospels and aside from the miracles, please remember that--

1) Jesus stopped a mob from stoning a woman accused of adultery, and the mob was just doing an obligation according to the Law of Moses (Leviticus);

2) He spent time talking, teaching with the pariahs of Jewish society(like the tax collectors for the Roman Legions who were considered as bad as traitors and thieves);

3) He even allowed his own freedom to be traded with that of the murderer Barnabas;

4) Without any resistance or attempts to defend himself, Jesus was beaten and scoured;

5) And even near the painful moment of his slow Death on the Cross, Jesus comforted a criminal.

As Bertrand Russell did note: Jesus had a "vindictive fury" when he spoke of hell but as one can see, his actions are "profoundly humane". That for me, tells a lot about true intentions.

Jesus is a complex character; and a lot of people often misunderstood him even until now. That is why we must consider all things. Carefully.

I'd like to believe that Bertrand Russell wanted us to consider Christ's morality only to ignite our own personal questions of our own morality.

For everyone's kind consideration.

[Empress_Of_Drac]

hmmmn...nice explaination but you really don't have to explain. lol...i was just quite intrigue with Bertrand's views and wanted to see what're the other mortals reactions...

Bertrand is actually a pacifist who doesn't believe that the real reason that people accept religion has anything to do with argumentation...it's because it's useless to argue when that person's predicament is soleby based on his faith.

but then as you said we should not judge people by what they say instead judge them by their deeds. but as I look closely at your statement you tend to say that Christ uses HELL as a sort of a threat...so that those mortals in those times would listen and obey him. So, do you suggest that Christ is LYING? and for all this time what the church has thought us about HELL is only a LIE? They're telling us of eternal damnation just to scare us?

[diem]

So, do you suggest that Christ is LYING? and for all this time what the church has thought us about HELL is only a LIE? They're telling us of eternal damnation just to scare us?

I am not suggesting anything like that. What I was suggesting was to take all angles/actions/things in consideration. Leaders and public figures are known, then and now, to use very strong words and language to deliver their messages across, to be considered by their audience. And one would expect mixed reviews and receptions, because people are people.

Bertrand Russell shared his opinion and I've respectfully shared mine. To each their own.

Is Christ lying? How would we know that He did...? Just as how can we prove that He is not? The best we can do is interpret until we're dead.

Is the Afterlife Hell a lie? A scary fairy tale? I have no idea because I haven't experienced death or Hell or know anyone who is currently experiencing eternal damnation.

[Spec-V]

I want to see if this author can also make a book about the Morality of Muhammed & Islam...

I bet he will barricade himself in his home.

[freesoul]

Did Jesus Christ founded Christianity? Why does his own people(Jews) don't believe he is the Son of God, "The Messiah"?

The Jews are still waiting for their Messiah. If the Jews witnessed the life of Jesus Christ they should be a Christian Country right now. Are there secrets hidden by the Jews on the true life of Jesus Christ?

What's your opinion?

[diem]

[color=navy]It is because the Jews of Jesus' time believed the their Messiah will deliver them from captivity under Roman Occupation and Law as did Moses delivered their ancestors from the rule of Pharaoh many many generations ago. Using the power of God in producing plagues against their enemies, rather than miracles.

The Jews, during the time of Jesus and maybe until now, believe that the promised Messiah is both a religious and political leader much like King David who fought their enemies with sword and skill, and from whose house is the Messiah will come.

So the Jews then didn't expect their Messiah to be coming from humble origins, the son of a carpenter. They interpreted that their Messiah will free them from bondage and poverty under the Roman rule, smite its enemies, raise Israel to its former glory like in the time of Solomon and make it a heavenly Kingdom on Earth with wealth, power, influence and righteousness under one God and one King, befitting the Chosen People of God.

That is why they don't believe in Jesus because Jesus didn't bring that for them.

If we base it on the Gospels, the Pharisees were the Jewish leaders who kept an eye out on the promised Son of God the Messiah and they often told Jesus time and time again, until to his trial and his crucifixion.

"If You are the Son of God, then why don't you save yourself?"

But He didn't. Through their eyes, He died on that Cross and was buried in a tomb. And for them, there He remained. Dead.
That is what they believe, and so that is what they know.

[off^tangent]

bitaw. punishing a person for eternity just for a human lifetime of sins, or unbelief, by a god who's supposed to have infinite mercy and understanding just doesn't make sense. that's a big anomaly. even a life of eternity in heaven. can you imagine living millions or billions or trillions of years doing what, playing harp all the time? it looks like bondage to me. that's more fearsome than death.

science tells us that no complex matter can exist or evolve into something that can last forever. even the mighty stars collapse to their deaths. if some people are blessed to live for eternity, i can imagine them living as bouncing electrons or quarks. that reality pushes heaven out of our realm, if we must insist that heaven exists, to one of the parallel universes that science also theorized to exist but has not detected any yet. in that case, the gods from that parallel realm must have purposedly put humans into this very harsh proving ground that is our universe, just to see who's going to go back to their realm for eternity and who's going to another realm for a hellish eternity, and who's going to go somewhere in between. the gods must be playing, well, gods. and what a cruel game they play, from my human point of view.

[Generals]

well said.

The Jews missed the promised Savior by being very nearsighted.

[Sinyalan]

hmmm... with your point Generals, that jews neglected his being the son of god and here we are now "NOT JEWS" found him the son of god? It's kinda bit odd don't you think? If it weren't these roman empire and crusaders who brought these book from israel, we wouldn't know him in the first place, correct? Jewish people are not by means nearsighted because of their first belief but rather optomistic. They have been slaved form hundreds of years since the egyptian empire down to the romans and their only solution was to have a stronger and a warrior like messiah to deliver them from slavery. Who would want a simple man deliver them from oppression?

Yet, most of us call them the chosen people... would you still believe that?