Religious icons, 'Ivory Worship' and ivory smuggling in PHL

[miekuh]

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dili lang kay siya naay illegal. money is money. GOD is for GOD

[Bears Grill]

I don't get why the editorial in SunStar takes only one side of the issue. Instead of investigating the Monsignor, they're attacking the writer for bringing up the former's pedophile case. Tsk, tsk, tsk....Of course, background checking is par for the course for investigative reporters. Bryan Christy was doing his job. Nothing wrong there.

I judge the story based on the words from the people involved themselves. Read what they say.

SALESWOMAN at the Savelli Gallery on St. Peter’s Square in Vatican City:

Ivory, ivory, ivory...You didn’t expect so much. I can see it in your face.

--

FATHER JAY:

Most of the old ivories are heirlooms. The new ones are from Africa. They come in through the back door (smuggled). It’s like straightening up a crooked line: You buy the ivory, which came from a hazy origin, and you turn it into a spiritual item. See? Because it’s like buying a stolen item.

People should buy new ivory icons to avoid swindlers who use tea or even Coca-Cola to stain ivory to look antique. I just tell them to buy the new ones, so the history of an image would start in you.

MONSIGNOR GARCIA (when asked how a person can get an ivory Santo Niño to the US):

You will have to smuggle it to get it into the U.S. Wrap it in old, stinky underwear and pour ketchup on it. So it looks shitty with blood. This is how it is done.

The Father Jay's and Monsignor's quotes are very telling. Right from the horses' mouths.

[necrotic freak]

^^ang juice ray mag igo aning duha ka fathers.

[dream_catcher]

hypocrisy in its highest form!
paka uwaw jud tawun ka father!

[FAQ]

May gani ivory smuggling ra , dili mga bata .

Naa pay mga posters dinhi ingon dayon "wa'y labot ang RC ana" blah blah blah , pero this year pa gi suspended sa Vatican ning Msgr Garcia tungod sa molestation case sa usa ka sakristan pag mid 80s unya hangtod karon gi imbestigar pa ? WHAT THE HECK !!! Imbestigar tingale kung unsaon pag cover-up ?!

[eezychair]

Yati ra ug dispute ? Kuyawa na gud nimo dong.

For a moderator, you should know that being condescending is an unintelligent way to make yourself feel superior.

You think the church and the faithfuls are condoning to his erring actions ?

Perhaps for the faithful like you, no. But for the leaders of the church all the way up to vatican - who allowed this guy to evade prosecution in the US, gave him a sensitive position back in Cebu that brought him to prominence, promoted him to monsignor, allowed him to be with young altar boys again (one istoryan posted in this thread that he too was a victim -post #93 @epoy73), and acting on the rape case only after 2 decades - if that is not condoning his erring actions, I don't know what else to say. But you are welcome to express you opinion on this.

Does that make RC " smugglers " because one of its leaders allegedly smuggled ivory ?

I don't remember anyone making such an accusation until you mentioned it.


You tried with fashion sympathizing the people you love to mock . NINDOT . Unless the " LEADERS " you are talking about was just Msgr Garcia or basin typo lang na.

Did I mock anyone here? Or is it just you? You just interpreted a post to have insinuated that you are a kissing scumbag, and he made it clear that he didn't mean that. Perhaps you should be a little more careful in interpreting and avoid being too judgemental.



Unless you can tell me that the action of Msgr Garcia reflects how bad ROMAN CATHOLIC are then it is not OT. Stop generalizing , pa OMG OMG pa ka mura ka ug korek like it is something new.

So condoning the acts of this guy and keeping it under wraps (for 2 decades) until this incident is not bad at all? I don't generalize. But you seem to interpret that I do. So it is not new then? You know more of these scandals?

or unless yuo can tell PRESTIGE that get his point of views responsibly shared with taste .



We dont know , maybe DENR is ang ally ciguro ni Msgr Garcia .



Contradicting yourself now ? Are stucked in the notion identifying persons or a person here ? Or another form generalization ?

Where is the contradiction? Unless these minions as it is implied in the post are really under the wings of the leaders of this church, and that makes them what? The enemy?

Huh ? Did you even bother read the news article ? Why would the churchdissociate within when the affected was only an erring person thus the investigation ? Regardless of the outcome , what embarassment would it provide ? That ROMAN CATHOLICS are SMUGGLERS ?

You are the one who is implying that this is an embarrassment to the RC, not me?

Like I said , talk about CHRIS GARCIA and his actions / activities associated with SMUGGLING . The church , faithfuls has nothing to do with the trouble he is facing right now.

Indeed the faithfuls and the RC church do not have anything to do with this. But you cannot avoid the involvement of the leaders who MAY have condoned this grievous act by one of them.

It is exasperating to engage in a discussion with people who are intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race. There is a Better word to describe them but I prefer not to use it. I would not have wasted my time responding to this post but reading through the views of others in this thread, it deserves a reply.

[eezychair]

"So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." - Matthew 23:2

OT: If you read further to 23:9, "And do not call anyone on earth your father, for One is your Father, He who is in the heavens."

[SPRINGFIELD_XD_40]

@EEZYCHAIR ...

For a moderator, you should know that being condescending is an unintelligent way to make yourself feel superior.

Dont speculate something towards me just because you think it is necessary for you to demand such action. Unless you cold have asked me to dispute you in a civilized manner . Mao na paga ingnon , act like a child and you will be treated like a child. Ikaduha , what difference would it make if I am not a mod ? Would it still involved a speculation of feeling superior over you as an ordinary member ?

Perhaps for the faithful like you, no. But for the leaders of the church all the way up to vatican - who allowed this guy to evade prosecution in the US, gave him a sensitive position back in Cebu that brought him to prominence, promoted him to monsignor, allowed him to be with young altar boys again (one istoryan posted in this thread that he too was a victim -post #93 @epoy73), and acting on the rape case only after 2 decades - if that is not condoning his erring actions, I don't know what else to say. But you are welcome to express you opinion on this.

1st , I am not a lawyer for Msgr Garcia , but what I can share is that , what happened in the US was already settled . He was expelled from the Dominican order , settled the cases with the victims amicably for compensations I/we dont know. Why it was reopened , I /we dont know but what we both know if we read the news reports , he was suspended since June of 2012 after the investigation went all the way to the Holy See . Not your CBCP por dios mio .

Now before you say its a RAPE CASE , make sure it was a RAPE CASE. Rape and molestation carries different definitions.

I don't remember anyone making such an accusation until you mentioned it.

Unless this meant for something else , I really want to know it .

he leads a faithful flock to a 'supposed' moral path. His position has a lot to do with his errors

Did I mock anyone here? Or is it just you? You just interpreted a post to have insinuated that you are a kissing scumbag, and he made it clear that he didn't mean that. Perhaps you should be a little more careful in interpreting and avoid being too judgemental.

Why dont you reflect on yourself and how you make comments and approaches towards issues that involves the church. Then let me know what twisted interpretation I just did.

Again , interpret this for me :

On the other hand, it pains me to see droves of 'faithful' still awed by these kind of religious leaders. I wonder how they will defend such behaviour.

So condoning the acts of this guy and keeping it under wraps (for 2 decades) until this incident is not bad at all? I don't generalize. But you seem to interpret that I do. So it is not new then? You know more of these scandals?

Who are condoning here ? Spill out names. Ikaw mismo nag sulti all the way up to Vatican yet now , Vatican is investigating on him. Again , you lack reflection. You have a habit of nailing it right away without checking if its wood or concrete . So ang lansang nimo would not be certain of mo lahos or mabali.

Society wrongdoings are rampant and the norm as we see and experienced it, ma highlight ang sa religious community because they are not supposed to be doing it but then , the human beings we are , subjected to human errors and irresponsible actions , maoy makita na klaro. Would you be saying this all over again if ang nahitabo na issue karon both molestation and smuggling of ivories was done by a lawyer ? An engineer ? A physician perhaps ? Would you be criticizing them how you criticized the church ?
YES or NO ra na.

Where is the contradiction? Unless these minions as it is implied in the post are really under the wings of the leaders of this church, and that makes them what? The enemy?

We are only talking about a person here. Msgr Garcia and nobody else. Unlike news reports today , if Archbishop Palma said something also , then you can talk something about him. But what happened here , you already spilled out the spoiler you are unsure of. If we follow that understanding of yours , it will go back to your idea that "he leads a faithful flock to a 'supposed' moral path. " , I dont see an enemy there. His errors and wrongdoings did not at all influence me .

You are the one who is implying that this is an embarrassment to the RC, not me?

Then isolate Msgr Garcia from your generalization and focus on him otherwise , we will go back to this :

Dissociate him from what? As a priest and now monsignor, he leads a faithful flock to a 'supposed' moral path. His position has a lot to do with his errors, so dispute that.

Indeed the faithfuls and the RC church do not have anything to do with this. But you cannot avoid the involvement of the leaders who MAY have condoned this grievous act by one of them.

A few leaders who probably involved themselves allegedly by covering up , harboring him etc does not equate to the RELIGION , the CHURCH , the MEMBERS , the FLOCKS etc. If that was your only post the moment I said about " talk about CHRIS GARCIA and his actions / activities associated with SMUGGLING . The church , faithfuls has nothing to do with the trouble he is facing right now." , it would not be this long and a little bit irrelevant.

It is exasperating to engage in a discussion with people who are intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race. There is a Better word to describe them but I prefer not to use it. I would not have wasted my time responding to this post but reading through the views of others in this thread, it deserves a reply.

Look who is talking here . Dont you think you are not ANNOYING too ?

Nagpaka importante baya ka dodong . Thats the very reason why you deserved a YATI ra KUYAWA na gud nimo reply.

[SPRINGFIELD_XD_40]

May gani ivory smuggling ra , dili mga bata .

Exage pod ka yads.

Naa pay mga posters dinhi ingon dayon "wa'y labot ang RC ana" blah blah blah , pero this year pa gi suspended sa Vatican ning Msgr Garcia tungod sa molestation case sa usa ka sakristan pag mid 80s unya hangtod karon gi imbestigar pa ? WHAT THE HECK !!! Imbestigar tingale kung unsaon pag cover-up ?!

Why dont you do your homework ? You are only good in FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS .

[d.a.m.a.s.o.]

" The same priest was suspended in June due to the Vatican’s decision to reopen the child abuse case filed against him in the United State 20 years ago, prior to his alleged recent involvement in illegal trade of ivory religious icons, a local paper said."

Priest involved in illegal ivory trade | GulfNews.com

Amazing...