The Roman Catholic Church~ Questions

[alfalfa]

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Some Fundamentalists charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

[Grammaton]

hmmmmmmm so you guys think those people will be saved still through justification by faith.. i was quite intrigue bro b'coz i think the same way too.. RC believes that there will be justification for those believers who have sinned even they are dead..

mao na naa mi purgatoryo nga gitawag though daghan debate ani kay wala daw sa bible ang purgatoryo gimention.. RC named it purgatory as a state of cleansing sa sins..

once we die, there will be no more cleansing for the lost souls (Hebrews 9:27).....kay ang kriminal nga tawo but kwartahan may chance pa nga malangit kung ana ang sitwasyon. mas mag-una pa sya sa uban kay daghan man syag kwarta ikabayad pamisa.

extracts from a christian site...

The idea of purgatory grows out of four mistaken ideas about man, sin, and salvation.
First, Catholic theology does not accept the final and full sufficiency of Christ’s once-for-all atonement (1 Pet. 3:1. The Catholic soteriological system is fraught with ideas of self-atonement-works that must be done to merit forgiveness for past sins. Purgatory allows for those meritorious efforts (i.e. suffering) to atone for sin after death.

Second, Catholic doctrine teaches an unbiblical idea of penalty and guilt. It holds that “absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused…he must ‘make satisfaction for’ or ‘expiate’ his sins. This satisfaction is also called ‘penance.’”⁴ Purgatory is the final act of penance that removes the penalty of sin.

Third, Catholic doctrine distorts the biblical concept of grace by adding human merit to it: “Moved by the Holy Spirit and charity, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.”⁵ Purgatory helps to earn enough merit, over time, to overcome the punishment of God.

Fourth, Roman Catholic theology confuses the biblical doctrine of judgment. It teaches that judgments after death include a remedial judgment that sends some people to purgatory, and a final judgment that occurs at the second coming of Christ.

These four notions of self-atonement, penance, merit, and remedial judgment run contrary to the teaching of the New Testament, and they cause the gospel message to pass through a distorted grid that leads only to defective interpretation and understanding of Scripture.

[machinecult]

@machinecult

bro nabasa nako ako imo gihatag nga site but deli mana proof sa apostolic successions mga events mana cya but try to read this one i dunno if legit na but i seems kay gibased man sa bible and naa pa other infos..

Scripture Catholic - APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY AND SUCCESSION

Thank you for sharing the site. Ako nang basahon further karon gabie. But regarding Apostolic Succession I think we'll have doctrinal differences here. Because I don't believe authority was passed entirely through this sort of method. For instance, the Apostle Paul who was previously called Saul was a Jewish persecutor of Christians who put them to their deaths (ie. stoning). He was called the "Wolf who stalked the Lambs."

He himself did not become a church leader through authorization from the (elect) apostles themselves five years after the death of Christ (who by this time called their church The Way, inspired from John 14:6). He became a Christian and an aggressive apostle through a miracle and conversion (Acts 9). He later even criticizes and went into arguements against other church leaders including Peter (one of the original apostles and supposedly the founder of Catholicism) because some of their teachings were closing opportunities for Gentiles (people who are not Jews) who wanted to accept Christ.

Christianity was/is also not just a religion but a way of life. This also why apostolic succession is not necessary or biblical because it closes opportunities for Christians who want to evangelize to other people just because they are not given authority or 'chosen' by its more elite members. I'm sorry to add that apostles like Peter and Paul would have found many Catholic teachings and tradition astray from the scriptures.

[alfalfa]

The Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).

Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.

Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered," remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

[Grammaton]

There is very little, almost a non-existent Biblical case for Purgatory; and there is a most substantial Biblical case against it. Biblical soteriology and eschatology know nothing of it.

Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits: "In the final analysis the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is based on tradition not Sacred Scripture." So be it. The Biblical Christian must concur with The Anglican Thirty-Nine Articles, on this and like doctrines, that: "The Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also the Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather is repugnant to the Word of God." It is a negation of the Scripture itself to hear a Roman pontiff express the following reprieve: "An indulgence of three years is granted to the faithful who read the Books of the Bible for at least a quarter of an hour, with the reverence due to the Divine Word and as a spiritual reading. To the faithful who piously read at least some verses of the Gospel and in addition, while kissing the Gospel Book, devoutly recite one of the following invocations...an indulgence of 500 days is granted." The man who penned these words was ignorant of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

All these doctrines and practices are tied to a heterodox way of looking at the process of salvation. Human effort and merit are somehow made part of Christ's work on our behalf. Purgatory is a negation of the doctrine of grace; it is a monument to a theology of works.

As for spiritual purgation, we will be content with the cleansing of the Cross.

-james sauer-

[Grammaton]

"It is finished". These were the last words of Jesus before he died on the Cross.
John 19:30 tells us Jesus said, "It is finished". With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

"It is finished" has been translated from the Greek word "tetelestai". This word was used in ancient Greece as a receipt for taxes, meaning that a debt had been paid in full. What did Jesus mean? What had been paid in full?

Not only is any explicit discussion of purgatory not found in the Bible, but it also runs against the whole theme of the New Testament. Paul wrote in Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death
When Christ died, he was paying for our sins. He was receiving our wages, our death. He was paying for our debt, in full.

Paul also wrote in Romans 8:1

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
If Christ paid for our debt in full and there is no condemnation in Christ, then how can purgatory be required or real? And it follows that without purgatory there is no basis in praying for the dead.

[sygbyn619]

"When you pray, don't babble on and on as the heathens do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again." - Matthew 6:7

Repetitions tarnishes its sincerity. Mura ba ug habitually telling someone "I love you" over and over again until it loses its meaning.

mau sd ang akong point..
pru nganu mn? unsa may basehanan nganung mgmemorize mn ta ug prayers?

sorry kaau if OT kaau ko sa gisturyaan nnyu..

[Grammaton]

ang prayer dili man tingali angay i-memorize coz it is when we try to connect to God giving thanks, confessing our sins, asking for supplications, his mercy para ma strengthen atong spiritual life.

A - Adoration
C - Confession
T - Thanksgiving
S - Supplication

Matthew 6:7 But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

[alfalfa]

Because Catholicism includes a rich tradition of formal prayer, many accuse Catholics of praying "in vain repetitions" in spite of the admonitions against them in Matthew 6:7. In doing so, they intimate that repeated prayers, because of repetition itself, are "vain" in the sense of being worthless or ineffectual. First, let it be understood from the get-go:
That Catholics pray in their own words in addition to formal prayers.


That Catholics are taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (268 that "the memorization of basic prayers offers an essential support to the life of prayer, but it is important to help learners savor their meaning." In other words, formal prayer isn't (or at least shouldn't be) mindless lip-moving but instead a formal expression of clearly understood and heartfelt sentiments.

Now, the people who make these accusations 1 against Catholics don't understand, apparently:
That the verse in question reads, in the King James version, "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." The operative Greek word here for "vain repetitions" is battalogeo, or babbling. That is, the heathens had a magical perception of prayer and thought the more they babbled to their gods, the more that that god would respond: I Kings 18:26: "And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered."


That, two verses after the warning in Matthew against "vain repetitions," Jesus gave us the "Our Father" prayer which most Protestant Christians pray with no qualms about praying "in vain." The same command in Luke 11:2 reads: "And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father..." -- "when you pray, say..."


That Christ Himself prayed in repetitions. Matthew 26:44: "And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words". Mark 14:39 reads: "And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words."


That the angels pray repetitiously. Revelation 4:8: "...and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come."


That God commanded Moses to tell the Israelites: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up." (Deuteronomy 6:4-7)


That the Psalms are nothing but a collection of prayers and litanies which were prayed formally in the pre-Christian synagogues and early Christian churches, are still prayed in synagogues and Catholic churches today -- and were even prayed by Christ from the Cross.


That the liturgy of the synagogue was (and is) filled with repetition and formalized prayer. Christ said "use not vain repetitions, as the heathens do". Were the Jews heathens? They prayed (and still pray) the sh'ma twice a day and, in their liturgy, the Shemoneh Esrei, the Kaddish, the morning blessings, the Aleinu, etc. Check out a Jewish siddur (missal) sometime; does it look more typically Protestant or Catholic?


That hymns are prayers. Is it "vain" to sing "Amazing Grace" or "The Old Rugged Cross" more than once?

In addition, the earliest Christians (being Catholics) understood Christ's words as do modern Catholics. The 1st century Didache (The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) says:

Do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, like this:

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one; for Thine is the power and the glory for ever..

Pray this three times each day.

So, is it "repetitions" that are bad or was Our Lord speaking of "vain repetitions," vainglory, and frivolousness? Was Our Lord wrong for praying the same prayer more than once, using the same words, in the Garden of Gethsemani? Are the angels in Heaven wrong for singing the Sanctus ("Holy, Holy, Holy") all day and night, without ceasing? Was God making a big mistake when He told Israel to pray the sh'ma all throughout the day? Are reading the Psalms a waste of time? Have Israelite, early Christian (Catholic), and modern Jewish, Catholic and Orthodox liturgists been praying "vainly" for all these millennia, only to be set straight in the past hundred or so years by sola scriptura Protestants? Is it wrong to sing hymns that have been sung, verbatim, before?

[dartzed]

once we die, there will be no more cleansing for the lost souls (Hebrews 9:27).....kay ang kriminal nga tawo but kwartahan may chance pa nga malangit kung ana ang sitwasyon. mas mag-una pa sya sa uban kay daghan man syag kwarta ikabayad pamisa.

hmmmmmmm so what happens now to your justification by faith?..

can you give me the readings sa RC bro asa na nako mabasa sa teachings nila nga mag.una ang mga dato nga makasasala?.. kay i would love to tackle on this if makabasa ko ani sa teachings sa RC catechism..

extracts from a christian site...

The idea of purgatory grows out of four mistaken ideas about man, sin, and salvation.
First, Catholic theology does not accept the final and full sufficiency of Christ’s once-for-all atonement (1 Pet. 3:1. The Catholic soteriological system is fraught with ideas of self-atonement-works that must be done to merit forgiveness for past sins. Purgatory allows for those meritorious efforts (i.e. suffering) to atone for sin after death.

actually bro it was not mistaken idea, referring to the bible Matt. 12:32 - 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Note: neither in this world(obviously says while we are alive) and in the world to come(The phrase “in the world” (in Greek, en to mellonti; in Latin, neque in futuro) refers to the afterlife (check example, Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30; 20:34-35; Eph. 2:1) ) it explicitly says "life everlasting"..

"Purgatory allows for those meritorious efforts to atone for sin after death" Bro can you expound this more "meritorious efforts" of whom?..

Second, Catholic doctrine teaches an unbiblical idea of penalty and guilt. It holds that “absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused…he must ‘make satisfaction for’ or ‘expiate’ his sins. This satisfaction is also called ‘penance.’”⁴ Purgatory is the final act of penance that removes the penalty of sin.

penance in RC teaching means it's the repentance of sins in layman's term. relate purgatory above this post.

Third, Catholic doctrine distorts the biblical concept of grace by adding human merit to it: “Moved by the Holy Spirit and charity, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.”⁵ Purgatory helps to earn enough merit, over time, to overcome the punishment of God.

the dead's merit there means is not being earned but ware earned already mao toy iaccount.

1 Cor. 3:13 Every man's work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it(means wala pay judgement day), because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward(ang tao nagbuhat ug maau aw luwas na daan). 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire(if ang tao nagbuhat ug maau ug daotan ang iya works will burn up but still be saved). 16 Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy(if ang tao magbuhat rag daotan aw maimpyerno asa ka angang God will destroy). For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

Fourth, Roman Catholic theology confuses the biblical doctrine of judgment. It teaches that judgments after death include a remedial judgment that sends some people to purgatory, and a final judgment that occurs at the second coming of Christ.

These four notions of self-atonement, penance, merit, and remedial judgment run contrary to the teaching of the New Testament, and they cause the gospel message to pass through a distorted grid that leads only to defective interpretation and understanding of Scripture.

seriously it was all in the bible bro..