Is PHP the future of web development?

[eax]

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sorry bro i was typing my msg when vern's post was the latest.

anyway onsa man diay iyang security feature sa java or struts nga wala sa php? or di pwede buhaton sa php??.

I don't know unsa ang php security. But sa java try this http://java.sun.com/javase/technologies/security/

Para nako ang security sa Java is dili ra nag-depend sa OS. Mura ba siya naay iyahang security features.

[Anton]

@vern.

Okay, let me list mine..


c. Paypal e.g www.paypalmerchantservices.com/demo/cart.jsp

i. Ebay e.g http://forums.ebay.com/db2/forum.jspa?forumID=97
countdown.ebay.com/start.jsp

... and many more too.

Aren't they HUGE?

What do most of them all have in common ?? Yes, that is right, they involve $$$. And no, PHP cannot handle what JSP can in terms of security alone.

Friendster, Myspace, Facebook, all social networking hype. Largest because it's free. But on revenue, would not beat even Best Buy (Best Buy — Revenue: US$30.8 Billion (2006)). I know it wouldn't be fair to compare their revenues but let's face it, security counts. If JSP is some lousy tool, Best Buy and other firms would not be earning billiions.

Yes, Google uses some Java. In fact, they use some Struts in Blogger.

Java works...in $$$ ways.

Hello, let me just point out a few facts:

www.paypalmerchantservices.com is not paypal, it is a demo of a cart app. If you know how to look, you'll see that paypal uses Apace with the mod_cgi library. ..so yes a possibility of Java FCGI.... but not JSP

http://forums.ebay.com/db2/forum.jspa?forumID=97 for the forums yes. But the actual site? (https://signin.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?SignIn) a big no, just looking at the address its clearly shown that they use Microsoft's ISAPI api and still if you check closely, you see that they infact are using a IIS 5.0 and apache-coyote.


Security wise, it depends on who's implementing it, you may have a huge security application library. But if the one implementing/coding it is an idiot, then libraries can only do so much.

IMHO, there is no certain king for the future of web-dev.... It all depends on the programmer, which language you are comfortable with what paradigm you want to follow. And perhaps what architectural pattenr you want you want to use. Only idiots close their minds to possibilities of using other programming languages.


and by the way, MVC is not a framework its an architectural pattern.

[vern]

Aren't they HUGE

Yes, but the sites I listed are bigger. You did mention SCALABILITY right? Not to mention the fact that the sites you listed do not make their money from Java or their web services. Go figure. The sites I listed exist solely on the web and make their money there. Microsoft bought 7% of Myspace for 300 million ... that isn't loose change. This also isn't about Java VS PHP which you make it out to be, this is a discussion about PHP and the point that I'm trying to make that PHP might not be king, but neither is Java.

Lemme go through your list and pick it apart because it seems like you base your conclusions on file extensions.

a. wow, mastercard ... I get my VISA card from Wells Fargo, they don't use Java in their web applications. oh no, I guess banks can reliably count on something other than Java.

b. EA Sports ... Unless they tell their developers to use Java to develop games, I don't even know why you list them. They don't make their money or provide their gaming services with Java. Please don't tout that Java is the web platform for money and then mention companies who don't make money using it.

c. Paypal ... and the backend? ... where the real money moves? ... please refer to Anton's post.

d. Like I have already implied above, VISA can partner with many different financial institutions for VISA cards, the real power is not with Java, it is their backend enterprise databases and servers ... those they partner with like my bank, Wells Fargo can use any language they like.

e. One word ... NASDAQ.

f. www.newegg.com, www.amazon.com, www.ebgames.com

g. That one page maybe ... the forums are all .NET and the majority of WoW's web based services are .NET from the forums to the armory.

h. Refer to b.

i. Look at the rest of the site. *hint* They don't use Java. Refer to Anton's post

What do most of them all have in common ?? Yes, that is right, they involve $$$. And no, PHP cannot handle what JSP can in terms of security alone.

Security is what developers make of it. A platform can be as secure as the developers make of it. PHP based sites make tons and tons of money. I don't know how you can even argue that they don't. You neither have the numbers nor any kind of proof that Java run sites make more money,

Yes, Google uses some Java. In fact, they use some Struts in Blogger.

And internally Python > Java. Google is language agnostic. Just because they use Java in one app doesn't mean they use it company wide in all apps.

Java works...in $$$ ways.

Like I said, how in the world can you argue that other languages don't "work in $$$ ways"? Going around and looking for .jsp extensions is not proof of anything. .jsp as a web development tool is just that ... the front end. Many of the enterprises and big companies don't use it to move around data.

Like I have said countless countless times, I am in no way saying Java is bad and others are better, I am saying however that what Java can do, others can do and sometimes better. Fanboyism is idiotic.

[waidootisman]

This also isn't about Java VS PHP which you make it out to be, this is a discussion about PHP and the point that I'm trying

to make that PHP might not be king, but neither is Java.

This is the reply that started the word 'Java'.

.. I can't do this in PHP, I think I'll use Java or This is easier on Java ... not many. Like I said ...
....
Java works ... but Java isn't king nor is it the future of web development.

Was avoiding these words and focused on my arguments. I think you meant Java Server Pages. You were, in the first place

compared Java with PHP.

ow, mastercard ... I get my VISA card from Wells Fargo, they don't use Java in their web applications...

Umm.. Who said Wells Fargo uses Java ?

b. EA Sports ... Unless they tell their developers to use Java to develop games, ....
Please don't tout that Java is the web platform for money and then mention companies who don't make money using it..

Umm, we are talking about web applications, not the language used by EA Games to create their products. My point is,

their web site uses JSP. As you have read in my previous reply is said 'most of them' (the list.) and by 'most of them', I

mean to say NOT ALL.

d. Like I have already implied above, VISA can partner with many different financial institutions for VISA cards

We are talking about VISA webpage itself, not about their financial institutions'.

And for the rest, I may have forgot to mention that not all of them is pure JSP, the point is, like what you have said about Yahoo and others who uses some PHP, it uses some JSP. Just like flickr use some PHP.
But for the record, Best Buy has JSP written all over it.

@vern
I did not, in all of my replies to this thread, say Java > others. I only said this feature of JSP is > than your feature of your PHP. But no, not JSP > PHP. What I am trying to do here is defend what I believe. What I am trying to prove here is that JSP should also be considered as a future web tool.

The difference between our arguments is that I only have one tool. You have two. That's the only disadvantage I have, sticking to one product. But if I were to ask which is which, I would only pick one.

It's not that it's fanboy-ish or whatever, everyone just has their favorite thing.. as you have said, it all depends *institutions* on which language to use.

@anton
I have read articles from this website so I wrote eBay down the list.
It's http://developer.ebay.com/developercenter/java/
http://www.java.com/en/ebay7.jsp

[eax]

lots of java programs are being migrated to .Net.. haven't heard of anything about a .Net app to java migration.
the maintenance part though has nothing to do with the high lvl PL being used.

please give some sites that are running on JSP.

If you program Java and .Net (especially C#) you will find that C# is basically the same as Java. Thats why daghan ni fork wala lang ni migrate for example (hibernate (java) and nhibernate (.net), ant (java) and msbuild (.net), junit (java) and nunit (.net)).

Wala mo migrate from .Net to Java because .Net is a closed-source application and single platform while Java is open-source and multiple platform. I think kana nag-migrate to .Net is ilang development or product is for the Microsoft OS.

JSP sites is just only few because it is more likely the View of the web application.

[Anton]

@anton
I have read articles from this website so I wrote eBay down the list.
It's http://developer.ebay.com/developercenter/java/
http://www.java.com/en/ebay7.jsp

I see what you mean the same as http://developer.ebay.com/developercenter/php/ or http://developer.ebay.com/developercenter/windows/ ... still, its undeniable that ebay uses ISAPI

For me there is no such thing as king web-language, there isn't even a defacto standard on whats being used today. Although more web-hosting solutions are providing PHP, ASP and recently RoR... But this all depends on the developer/development team. Bottom line is there is no such thing as an overall better language, telling others otherwise is like a little kid boasting that his GI Joe is better than his playmates Matchbox.

If someone told me of a new development paradigm, or better yet a something better than the MVC architecture, then probably you can say its something of the future, but then thats for antoher topic. For me this topic is moot.

OT: does anyone know frameworks for Java/JSP using something similar to RoR's scaffholding? I already know of cakePHP, Monorail (.Net) , TurboGears(Python). I've heard of Grails for Java but I think it's still under release candidate.

[eax]

OT: does anyone know frameworks for Java/JSP using something similar to RoR's scaffholding? I already know of cakePHP, Monorail (.Net) , TurboGears(Python). I've heard of Grails for Java but I think it's still under release candidate.

I think usa naman na ang Struts/Tiles or EJB or Spring/Hibernate. Correct me if I'm wrong I think they have the same concepts that each database has a corresponding classes.

Check this http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/li...a-rubyonrails/

[Anton]

I think usa naman na ang Struts/Tiles or EJB or Spring/Hibernate. Correct me if I'm wrong I think they have the same concepts that each database has a corresponding classes.

Check this http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/li...a-rubyonrails/

Here's a another good read http://ruby-vs-java.blogspot.com/200...iverecord.html

Yes they do have similarities, rail's active record is quite similar to hibernate. But the development process have alot differences. What i really like about rails is its "painless" dynamic scaffolding/ scaffolding generation. I'm not quite familiar with java, haven't really used it lately.

[eax]

Here's a another good read http://ruby-vs-java.blogspot.com/200...iverecord.html

Yes they do have similarities, rail's active record is quite similar to hibernate. But the development process have alot differences. What i really like about rails is its "painless" dynamic scaffolding/ scaffolding generation. I'm not quite familiar with java, haven't really used it lately.

Correct me if I'm wrong it is Martin Fowler who developed or researched about ActiveRecord and Spring (not Hibernate).

Same pud ko diri but opposite lang. I've tried Java (EJB, Struts/Tiles) but not on rails or php. But I'm still studying Ruby on Rails.

Another link : http://blogs.sun.com/whacko/entry/de..._ruby_on_rails

[Anton]

Spring was written by Rod Johnson, I believe. Martin Fowler is an author and major proponent of Agile Software development and reusable object models.
Hibernate's development was lead by Christian Bauer and Gavin King. And now under JBOSS.... ROR was developed by David Hansson, during debelopment of 37 signals' Basecamp.